while non-christians do good and go to hell

there’s people who go to church and pray
there’s people who save people’s lives, nurture and heal,
who don’t believe in god, don’t go to church and curse the pope for his damn hypocrisy that kills thousands of people who don’t want to use condoms, because the bleedin church sais they shouldn’t…

there’s a difference indeed, between christians and people who go to church,
there’s a difference between religion and church

and yet,

non-believers go to hell, even if they live a good life, or live by christian values?

or did i get that wrong?

willem

Pual made that up to sell more tickets. Looking at things like the Gospel of Thomas I get the feeling that christ was trying to burn a religion down not build one up. But I’m no Bilical Scholar so feel free to scoff at my amaturish theories.

Willem, hi.

Was your comment about the Church’s position AIDS-related? Those people not using condoms and getting AIDS are also people not following the Christian moral code. If people did practice temperance, it would end such problems as AIDS and Abortion.

As to atheists being saved, should I quote Paul or Rahner? Paul said that those who live without the law are a law unto themselves, and that love fulfills the law. In the last century, Rahner called these people “Anonymous Christians” – i.e., people who say they do not believe in God but act as if they do. ( I even read in an apologetics magazine that a Father of the Church said that those who live morally, should not fear.)

Vale bene.

that was my point really, i wanted to raise a discussion 'bout it, but because no-one responds, i’ll suppose those people are considered ‘good’ as well and ‘would’ go to heaven if there were such a thing…

'bout the aids thing… well that’s funny, that would make the roman church (dunno 'bout the others) non-christian :smiley:, then again, we knew that for some time now, didn’t we?

willem

I dont think this is completly true, it only takes one time to get aids (you said temperance not abstinence) and it can go unnoticed for a long time. And for, abortion what about rape victims? And if u allow them to have abortion, how is that not just as bad(still supposedly killing a life)?

Sorry i guess this is a little OT…

A christian im close with believes that non-christians can go to heaven, and that u are judged by whats in your heart.

Its not the label by which you call yourself, or even by which you act, that “saves” you.

It is who you know, and who you are.

Its what’s in your heart. People, Even people with Religous power, don’t have Jesus in thier heart. Only Jesus knows whats in our hearts. Thats what the 7 Churches of Revelations is all about.
So if we have his Salvation by accepting Jesus, there is no need to worry or question. Enjoy life. He has bought and paid for us with the price of his blood. The old laws are thrown out. We will have eternal life with Jesus as our king. No death, no hate, no fighting, no sin, no bad. If someone offered us that and said you can move there tomarrow, would you?

   We don't have the power to see into peoples' hearts, but we can all be fruit inspectors.  

Go to LesFeldick.com your questions will be answered in absolute truth.

I don’t know if I would because I would also have no freewill in such a place.

Whether it be Jesus or the Jewish Messiah or Allah that establishs such a world here or in the afterlife I must ask then what happens to our freewill? If that utopia and freewill are not synoymous would I really care to be a part of it, probably not for I value my freewill very highly.

Also note the paradox what difference would there then be in such a world between angles and humans? None. Therefore what purpose did this world have? To weed out the good souls from the bad? Ridiculous and unjust. If that was gods purpose he could have skipped giving us a freewill and making souls that would corrupt in the first place.

I reject such an end and not without reason.

Yes. Yet , there would be no free will in hell either.
So, I guess that’s the question.
Would you rather have no free will in heaven or no free will in hell?
Biblically speaking, (Im just speaking as a believer of scripture) that the end will come and people will go to one of two places. I’m thinking that freewill will be wiped out from our memories but thats strictly my opinion. For at first we had no knowledge that we had free will until we ate of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. And remember what God says? “Man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.” (One of Us.) gen3:22 So angels have free will also. Maybe God and the angels are the only ones who were supposed to have the knowledge. I don’t know. But in scripture there are stories of angels sinning against God. The most well known, satan.

If one believes scripture or not is in fact totally up to thier free will. Yet I am just commenting as a believer of scripture for my free will has led me there. So in alliance with what Revelation says, my question remains.
Would you rather be in the Lake of Fire or would you rather be in paradise? Which place would you decide to loose your free will at? Or if we don’t loose it, which place would you be “judged to” because of your free will in accordance with God’s word?
This is might only sound logical to the Biblical thinker, other religions may have loopholes.

however we may never loose our free will, Im just saying if we do. and if we don’t we will retain it in one of two places.

actually for the record, there really isn’t a story about angels sinning against God anywhere in the Old Or New Testament. Satan simply refers to a rock in the road or a fallen tree over a path, an obstacle in general. Most of this is an elaborate creation of St Jerome and Milton.

just for the record

yes there is for the record. 2 Peter 2:4.
“For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgement;”

Niether one nor the other makes sense if you admit we will not have a freewill. It is not a question of rather one or the other.

I can believe in Santa Clause so what. You cannot speak to me as a believer you must speak as an objective, unbaised, observer in order to be intllectually honest. I know Rabbis are supposed to be as objective as possible when studying Torah.

Then according to scripture god had no purpose in making Adam.

This is untrue. Adam and eve had perfect knowledge that they were free beings. They were even given choice. Eat from all the trees except one. That is their freewill and there is their choice.

Why do you conclude that if an Angle has knowledge of good and evil it has freewill? False logic. And Mammonaids a great Jewish comentator wrote that to think of angles as creatures and superficially one is guilty of the greatest foolery.

In the Old Testiment, in the Torah, the word satan in Hewbrew and in the contexts it is used is an angle that produces obstacles. You have a very bad misconception of what angles are in the Old testiment.

An angle is a hyostasis, a concrete expression of the divine presence, which is otherwise inexpressible to human beings. What the human sees when such a hypostasis is in front of him or her looks like “people,” like a “man.” And the word for such a thing is “angel.” Thus Jacob can encounter an angel and still say “I’ve seen God face-to-face” (Gen 32:31). All this is so because in some ways an angel is an identifiable thing itself, and in some ways it is merly a representation of the divine presence in human affairs. Not an entity on its own with a freewill.

Also take note, if satan has powers of his own then he is in turn himself a diety and this goes against the most fundamental Old Testiment belief that God is one, and consequently in control of everything.

This does not sound logical to me at all and I’v been very much into Torah. My previous post gives my arguments.

As I have said before, I believe satan is a god not the God. And I understand that people have many different views of what an angel is, mine is different than yours, although I think what matters is that we believe that they exist in whatever form. As for free will, I have it and you have it. I am not well informed of theories or studies behind it for really I have never had an interest in it so I am not a good objective. My only comment on it is this and again I am not well informed of the subject of free will. As a mother though, I am glad my children choose to love me and don’t love me because they are programmed to. How would God know if we loved him, if we didn’t have the free will to love him? We would all be God robots. So I would have to say, I’m not a good person to debate about free will with for 1. It doesn’t really interest me 2. I am not well informed of it. I just know that we have it, and I try to use mine in alliance with God’s will.

Because god knows everything by definition.

As to your reply about angels it is not enough for me anyway to simply believe. I do not accept that I may believe what I want and you may believe what you want. This sort of thinking will bring niether one of us any closer to truth.

If you have any theological evidence to counter my arguments then use them otherwise we are both talking of fairy tales, and we might as well be with your reasoning.

What makes you so sure?

I’ll relate a small anecdote on this point. Someone told me of a story or I read somewhere of a child being taken away from his mother because the mother was abusive to the child. Really absusive… Guess what the childs reaction was, he was calling for his mommy.

I conclude that an angel has free will because of 2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons."
to break it down, wouldn’t you need free will to sin? For if an angel didn’t have free will, they couldn’t sin. They know good and evil but you have to have free will to make a choice between the two.
Okay now. I’m going outside of the box in this next one. My first book was about this because it was about Noah Ark.

In Genesis 6 it states.
When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose."(there was a distinction from the first part of the sentence.)
sons of God. daughters of men. why wouldn’t it say sons of men? So sons of God could be angels.
Now in the next paragraph Nephilium are mentioned. and its really interesting, "The Nephilium were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-When (keyword) the sons of god went to the daughters of men and had children by them.
Then the next paragraph goes straight into how men were wicked and God was going to destroy the earth because of it.
So sons of God were angels, then go to 2Peter 2:4
“For if God did not spare angels when they sinned.” He says this directly before he says “If he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of rightousness and seven others.”
These are in order. Angels sinning was before the flood, so it happened before the flood according to Peter. Then jump back to Genesis and it says the same thing.
So the sons of God sinned and came down to earth and had children with the daughters of men. Thus they produced Nephilium. Nephilium means “to fall”. I have read that they were giants. And we know the story about David and Goliath. There is also a non biblical story about easter Island in encyclopedia about giants.
In any case, I still stand by my original that Angels have free will. Although Rabbis won’t go by the gospel of Peter for its the new testament.

When your 4 year old stops playing with a toy and looks up at you and says,“mommy, I love you.” without having said it to him first, thats my proof. Thats the best feeling.
Now maybe the child of an abusive mother called for his mother because she was familiar. We seem to be creatures of habit and memory. Change is hard ecspecially for kids. Maybe its a case of the lesser of two evils.

Picasso said,“No work of art is finished, it is only abandoned.”

I think I have just abondoned the notion to seek deeper into the absolute truth about angels and free will bit. I am happy where I stand, and someday may have a desire to pick up where I left off. Right now, its not for me. The process will not move forward until Im ready to take off with it. In other words, I can simply believe based on what I know right now and thats okay for me.

i wish to make a remark on those bible quotes, heather, you may want to watch out using them to refer too…
as you know that book was written and rewritten and copied and translated millions of times and there may not be much left of the original message…

as for love, i can assure you that at least a part of that is a product of evolution, (because it obviously increases the chances of survival…) the biological may yet be too complex for us to understand but it is quite logical… if your daughter sais that to you again, check wheter her pupils are wide, they usually will be…

i wonder why people tend to dispise things that can be explained, does a biological explanation for love really make it so much less beautiful… or would you rather have you daughter love you on pure rational grounds?

no offense, heather, i’m sure you’re a great mother…
all the best

willem

I indeed believe the science behind things. I believe and accept the science behind feeling. I know that pupils dilate and cheeks get rosey. However I don’t stop there, I go deeper and credit God for making those things possible. Science is how God works or had worked. If he created everything, then he surely created the pupils to dialate, or the body to sweat when nervous, or the breeze to blow during a storm. Ponder this.

God created evolution.

It may have not been the big bang theory, or it may have. Yet one can give credit to God for both. He could have created the earth through evolution. Evolution being God’s process of creation. In terms of evolution, he could have been the stimulation for things to Begin. The force and energy that says,“Begin!” And things could have begun. Thats what evolution is to me. God’s process of creation.
Thanks for your respect in regards to mothering.

The thing is when you begin to attribute this to genesis and compare science with it, it comes out in a different order then it occured as willem pointed out to me in the other thread.

Heres one Christian view too: http://www.lifebpc.com/qanda/interprete/Articles/intp02.html