(NOTE: The following is written by an indian, alex can back me up on this)
I often check out the BNP, National Front and Ku Klux Klan websites, to see how the other side thinks, (something i recommend) and one thing struck me as something i agree with. Imagine a prominent coloured person, and during an interview he states that he is proud to be coloured. What would the reaction be? Nothing, or perhaps praise for staying true to his cultural identity.
Now imagine a white man saying he is proud to be white. He must be a racist right? RIGHT?
Or not, what is the difference between the above two statements? Why is it not okay for whites to say they are proud of what they are?
I think that people are a little trigger happy with the word “racist”. But this can be for a good reason. There are still many whites who discriminate against blacks and freedom of speech can’t extend to racist slurs. But for people like me, this is irritating. I know I’m not a racist, so having to constantly guard against any remark that could be construed as racist galls me. Especially as people with different skin colours can proclaim solidarity without an eye-brow raised. Personally I am am not “proud” of being white. To me my skin colour is no more significant than my eye colour.
I found these double-standards especially true when I arrived in England 6 years ago. I had been at an international school, where every race, religion and ethnicity had happily mixed together. But suddenly I was in a country where my hair colour was a big issue (Red in case you’re wondering ) I have had some very nasty abuse thrown at me over the years, on the street as well as at school. Just because of the colour of my hair.
But apparently this just isn’t a problem. No one really cares. But I’m sure all that would change if I had black skin and the remarks had been highlighting that. But I find it just as bad. Any discrimination is wrong and I think that should apply to everyone, regardless of skin colour.
Olly
[This message has been edited by Olly (edited 12 February 2002).]
I think that in a way tall gnome has hit the nail on the head, if i understand him correctly. I used to have similar thoughts to HVD when I saw programs on tv like Black Britain. There would be an outcry if there was a program called White Britain in which people said how proud they were to be white. I think it’s a thing about minority. People who are proud of their ethnicity or religion are ‘allowed’ to be when they are in a society in which they are a minority. Therefore black, asian, oriental people etc. living in britain can be proud of their origins and not be considered racist. Black Britain was around because practically everyone on tv was white (as with almost all celebrities) so there is no need for a white britain whilst there is a need for a black britain.
Similarly I’m proud of my Jewish heritage because that is a minority religion in a Christian country. I’m not proud of being white as this is a predominantly white country.
On a similar theme i’ve noticed how it’s OK for Jews to take the piss out of themselves but no one else can. Black people can say jokes about black people and no one bats an eyelid but if a white person does then he’s a racist. thoughts?
it’s kind of the same as what my english teacher was saying about othello. it’s okay for a coloured person to play a white role, such as there have been black Henry V’s, but the idea, nowadays, of a white person (note lawrence olivier…you fool) blacking up to play othello is just insane. people would go crazy.
also, on a similar note, the riots in oldham. the indians there were stressing because they claimed the area of the town as their own, and were saying it belonged to them. couldn’t white english people just say the same and tell them to just get out of “our” country? thoughts.
i have nothing to back anything up with, i was just wondering if i had interpreted the situation correctly.
i reckon the thing about othello is different seeing as you couldn’t have a white man onstage saying ‘‘soot as black as i am’’ (or words to that effect) as othello does. the play comes about because of prejudices. i feel the impact would be lessened if he was white. on the other hand, old larry olivier did look a bit of a willy in his version. but what was the problem with a black actor?
It would have been OK for Olivier had he just kept his natural colour and left the rest to the imagination, because most plays leave a lot to the imagination anyway, for them to come to life. It was a huge mistake trying to cover up though. Its OK for black actors to play white parts in other shakespeare plays such as Henry V because the plays aren’t specific to race (OK, Henry V is a bad example, since it is specific to Britain - but essentially it is the story of triumph and loss etc which motivates the play, not racial tensions).
Surely if all skin colors are equal, then there’s no point being proud about your color any more than you would be proud of your shoe size?
What I would hope that people like Charlie feel pride in are actually the cultural traditions that they inherit from there ancestors.
But can anyone claim to define ‘white culture’?
I don’t think so!
Seems to me like someone might be a racist!
OK that’s a bit harsh, but the point remains- pride in skin color instead of culture implies it has a natural superiority over others.
[This message has been edited by Flamin’RedJJ (edited 25 February 2002).]
being proud of your colour, race, culture whatever doesn’t make you a racist. if you were saying that you were better than people of other races, on the other hand, that could be racism, but there’s no harm in being proud of who you are.
Flamin’RedJJ - you can’t go around calling people racist when you don’t know them. racism is a horrible word and you have no right to use it when you have nothing to back it up with.
Flaming - I don’t think Charley so much meant it as in “I’m proud to be white, and not black/asian/whatever” - I think she just meant it’s what she is and she’s happy with us. You’re definitely being rash with the whole “racist” thing.
good to have you back nicky. how did you get to be a philosopher and not a boring old thinker?
i was watching trashy american chat-shows (as one does when one is not at school) and some of the people on it were absolutely amazingly ignorant. there was this one guy who really hated jews, and said that hitler was a really great guy and stuff. and yet, his girlfriend was Jewish. he was being really mean to her, and told her she’d have to have her tubes tied if they got married, so that his kids wouldn’t be Jewish.
and there was some proper redneck white-trash on it who hated black people, because they smell, apparently. how fucking ignorant can people be? they were making judgements without even really understanding the people they were discriminating.
How’d I get to be a philosopher? Excessive posting, my dear. It all comes from being opinionated, you see.
And when it comes to redknecks, don’t knock 'em til you’ve tried em. I was on a plane with millions of them last week and I swear, they’re hilarious. Plus, if they see you laughing at them, they’ll probably give you the electric chair.
It all has to do with oppression and the feelings that one’s people have been oppressed throughout the years and have overcome (hopefully) such discrimination. Suffering begets unity. For example, when America is attacked by terrorists, Americans generally become more patriotic. Similarly, when certain ethnic groups feel that they’ve been oppressed/discriminated against/undergone hardships, it manifests their sense of unity and their sense of pride in their “group.” Generally, white people (particularly males) are not seen as having suffered (at least as the result of another ethnic group’s actions), and therefore we are seen as being less justified I think in feeling a pride for the past. We have oppressed more than we’ve overcome, I think, and as a result, we have less of a claim to unity and “pride.”
Personally, I believe that no one should have pride in anything but themselves, and perhaps, their friends and family. To identify oneself with a large group of which one is unfamiliar with most members is a dangerous instance of conformity which may at times yield single-mindedness and hypocrisy, such as the instances in which certain people or actions may be undeservingly considered “racist.”
What is people’s opinion here of Reverend Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam since we have been talking about patriotism, Black pride and those Blackalicious lyrics elsewhere.
I am very unsure about my opinions on this man and the “Correspondent” programme/interview with him left me a bit confused. He has certainly said things in the past which anyone rational would describe as racist or as anti-Semitic but his message seems to have changed alot. As I have said elsewhere on the site, I am a Zionist and believe in the right for a racial group to have a homeland. This chould therefore concur with Mr Farrakhan’s views on racial segregation. However there seems something exceedingly dangerous in the nature of the Nation of Islam. Farrakhan’s mafiosi status is scary, the organisation seems to behave socially in a cool/mob-like way and the dress of the people who surround him is that of soldiers. It reminds me so much of a miltary organisation and for what purpose? We didn’t see anything like that with Ghandi or with Martin Luther King. So I hesitate to call him a racist but I still fear this organisation. On top of this I believe FIRMLY in the importance of assimilation (When in Rome…) and the NOI seems to go direectly against that. They want equality with White Americans, something I obviously agree with. But if they can’t get this, then Farrakhan suggests racial segregation. This goes against assilmilation and is in my opinion not the answer. He speeks with terms like “humanity” and then promotes segregation. Who is referred to when he says “brother” then, is it just Black people, like in the Blackalicious quotation, or the rest of “humanity” - a word which Farrakhan seems to love? I’m sorry if this is confused but that’s cos I am too. Opinions ???
) I have had some very nasty abuse thrown at me over the years, on the street as well as at school. Just because of the colour of my hair.