who are you and you would say?

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

so, I ask you, who are you?

and you would say, I am an American…
and I would say, that is your nationality, not who you are,

so, who are you?
and you might say, I am a lawyer… that is your profession, not who you are…

and I ask you, who are you?
and you might say, I am a man…
but that is your gender, not who you are…

and who are you? and One might say, I am a democrat…
and that is your party affiliation, not who you are…

and who are you? and one might say, I am a liberal…
and that is your political persuasion, not who you are…

and I say, who are you? and you might say, I am an reader
and that is your hobby, not who you are…

and I might ask, who are you? and you might say,
I am middle class… and that is your socio-economic place
in the universe, but that isn’t who you are…

who are you? I am a student… and that tells me
that you are still in school, not who you are…

who are you? and you say, I am married… and that tells me
your marital status…not who you are…

so, when asked, I might say I am a married man who is 62 and
is a democrat… but does that really tell you if I am a good person,
a bad person, a person worth saving, a person who has values?

we just report random facts about ourselves and pretend that is who we are…
but in reality, can you answer the question honestly and without bullshit
facts that mean nothing… so, who are you?

and one may ask, how do we solve global warming
and how do we solve income inequality and how do we solve
the pollution crisis… and we can’t even answer a simple question
about, who we are?

0ne might ask, what is my relationship with god? who knows if you can’t even
tell us or yourself, who you are…

the vexing problems of today exists, but we can’t possibly solve them
if we are ignorant of who we are… if we can’t even answer the question,
who are you?

the questions of existence are questions about who we are and what it means to
be human… and we can’t even answer those questions of what it means to be human,
if we can’t even answer the one question that should haunt us all our lives…
who are you?

the more secure in who you are, means the less you actually know about who you are…
that security means you don’t face up to the question that should keep you up at nights,
who are you?

forget solving the population crisis or the political crisis, how can you solve those
if you don’t even know who you are…

so, who are you?

Kropotkin

2

Someone who God loved out of hell and just wants to do the same.

3

K: and that tells me nothing about who you are… god has nothing to do with an
understanding of who you are… it is something about your religion, not
who you are…

Kropotkin

4

ok. sure. I’m an INFJ of human descent who God loved out of hell & just wants to do the same?

5

And who might you be?

6

Nationality: British.

Profession: care assistant.

Gender: female.

Party affiliation: none. I voted for the Conservatives in 2019 on their promise to get Brexit done.

Political persuasion: social conservative, economic liberal, if I have to pick labels.

Hobbies: camping, hiking, reading about history, unsolved mysteries, etc.

Class: middle class, I suppose, since my parents are both teachers.

Education: to A-level standard.

Married: no.

Age: 30.

Opinion on global warming: it’s almost certainly part of a natural cycle. The earth was warmer, and the climate wetter, during the Neolithic and Bronze Ages, and more land was under cultivation.

Opinion on income inequalty: the system needs reforming root and branch.

Opinion on pollution: phasing out cars would be a good start. I’m very much an environmentalist.

Religious/spiritual path: Pagan, Goddess-oriented.

Who am I? I’m all of the above, and far more besides. I’m more than the sum of my parts, but those parts are still part of who I am.

7

Oh. lol. What she said: “Who am I? I’m all of the above, and far more besides. I’m more than the sum of my parts, but those parts are still part of who I am.”

Gestalt.

I like how it respects the parts, though. They aren’t bullshit, as long as you legit choose them as your own.

That’s why I would have Sisyphus hurl the rock away. And why fallible gods don’t do it for me. But I do love a good superhero movie. That’s my bullshit & I’m stickin to it.

8

There is a little issue because I would not exist if God did not exist. Like … nothing would exist if God did not exist. So that is not merely a part of me.

9

“Maia”: Nationality: British.

Profession: care assistant.

Gender: female.

Party affiliation: none. I voted for the Conservatives in 2019 on their promise to get Brexit done.

Political persuasion: social conservative, economic liberal, if I have to pick labels.

Hobbies: camping, hiking, reading about history, unsolved mysteries, etc.

Class: middle class, I suppose, since my parents are both teachers.

Education: to A-level standard.

Married: no.

Age: 30.

Opinion on global warming: it’s almost certainly part of a natural cycle. The earth was warmer, and the climate wetter, during the Neolithic and Bronze Ages, and more land was under cultivation.

Opinion on income inequalty: the system needs reforming root and branch.

Opinion on pollution: phasing out cars would be a good start. I’m very much an environmentalist.

Religious/spiritual path: Pagan, Goddess-oriented.

Who am I? I’m all of the above, and far more besides. I’m more than the sum of my parts, but those parts are still part of who I am.
[/quote]
K: do these “Facts” tell us or even you who you are… I believe that these facts, while
interesting, do no tell the story of who we are… are you a good person, a honest person,
a person with values, I am not sure these “facts” that you are “British”
is even a meaningful fact…or that you voted conservative to get “Brexit” done, is that even
a meaningful fact? that doesn’t tell me or you, the important values that we must have to
have an honest existence… In other words, are you honest with who you are?
it doesn’t matter if it is with me or not, are you honest with who you are, to yourself?

for me, it comes down to the Socratic maxims, to ‘‘know thyself’’ and
“the unexamined life isn’t worth living”

I do recall being 30 once, decades ago…and I thought I knew who I was,
but I didn’t… one doesn’t actually lie to yourself as much as pretend it
isn’t there… I was a poor excuse of a human being back then, not that I am
much better now, but at least now, I know it…

the questions of existence doesn’t lie within our knowledge of
our being middle class or which school we graduated from…
the true questions of existence lie within our understanding
of what values are our values… do we practice as well as preach
our chosen values…my values are the values of peace and love
and justice and hope and charity… do I practice those values as
well as preach them? it doesn’t matter if I am American or middle class
or a democrat… those facts are just facts that mean nothing unless we
have and practice values that improve us individually and collectively…

take a useful idiot like UR… he preaches hate and apparently practices it to,
how does that better the world or himself? values like hate, anger, violence,
lust, greed have no benefit, either individually or collectively…it doesn’t matter
about the facts of his life… who cares? all that counts is what he stands for…
and that ain’t good…

so the question of “'who are you” is a question of what values do you hold
and why… what values do you preach and then what values do you practice?

Kropotkin

10

K: do these “Facts” tell us or even you, who you are… I believe that these facts, while
interesting, do not tell the story of who we are… are you a good person, a honest person,
a person with values, I am not sure these “facts” that you are “British”
is even a meaningful fact…or that you voted conservative to get “Brexit” done, is that even
a meaningful fact? that doesn’t tell me or you, the important values that we must have to
have an honest existence… In other words, are you honest with who you are?
it doesn’t matter if it is with me or not, are you honest with who you are, to yourself?

for me, it comes down to the Socratic maxims, to ‘‘know thyself’’ and
“the unexamined life isn’t worth living”

I do recall being 30 once, decades ago…and I thought I knew who I was,
but I didn’t… one doesn’t actually lie to yourself as much as pretend it
isn’t there… I was a poor excuse of a human being back then, not that I am
much better now, but at least now, I know it…

the questions of existence doesn’t lie within our knowledge of
our being middle class or which school we graduated from…
the true questions of existence lie within our understanding
of what values are our values… do we practice as well as preach
our chosen values…my values are the values of peace and love
and justice and hope and charity… do I practice those values as
well as preach them? it doesn’t matter if I am American or middle class
or a democrat… those facts are just facts that mean nothing unless we
have and practice values that improve us individually and collectively…

take a useful idiot like UR… he preaches hate and apparently practices it to,
how does that better the world or himself? values like hate, anger, violence,
lust, greed have no benefit, either individually or collectively…it doesn’t matter
about the facts of his life… who cares? all that counts is what he stands for…
and that ain’t good…

so the question of “'who are you” is a question of what values do you hold
and why… what values do you preach and then what values do you practice?

Kropotkin
[/quote]

11

[/quote]
I think our values and ethics are certainly very important, but they’re not the only thing that makes us who we are, and probably not even the most important factor. All those other things, such as what we like to do, our personality, and even the trivial things like where we were born, and so on, all add together to make a fully rounded and unique individual.

12

Maia:
I think our values and ethics are certainly very important, but they’re not the only thing that makes us who we are, and probably not even the most important factor. All those other things, such as what we like to do, our personality, and even the trivial things like where we were born, and so on, all add together to make a fully rounded and unique individual."

K: I must disagree… I hold that the place we were born or the values we
were indoctrinated with, are not important… what has value is the choices
we make about our own values… the fact I was born in Minnesota has no
bearing on who I am… it is the values I choose that matter… and those values
are the only thing that in this life, is worth making a choice over…

am I a good person? that choice is the only choice that matters… the rest is noise…
am I person who “says what he means and means what he says”, as a value
that is far more important than the fact I went to Carlmont HS…do I hold values
that improve us or demean us, that is far more important than the fact that I
am a checker in a grocery store right now…

it is the values we hold that define us, not the accidental nature of our birth…
to say that I am a democrat isn’t as important as the values I hold…

to go from an animal existence, where most people are, even right now,
to go to animal/human, where we can make some choices, to becoming
fully human where the choices I make are what values do I hold,
what values are important, love or peace or justice or hope and than
I not only preach those values but practice them it is the choices
we make that define us, not the accidental nature of where we
were born or what language we speak, or what nationality we are…

Kropotkin

13

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that our values are the only things in life that’s it’s worth making a choice about, though they are certainly important. In practice, if that’s the only thing about life that was worth investing any energy or thought into, I think life would end up being pretty dull, to be honest. There are other things too, such as emotional fulfilment, discovering new things, making plans for the future, and countless other things that add richness to our lives.

14

Maia:
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that our values are the only things in life that’s it’s worth making a choice about, though they are certainly important. In practice, if that’s the only thing about life that was worth investing any energy or thought into, I think life would end up being pretty dull, to be honest. There are other things too, such as emotional fulfilment, discovering new things, making plans for the future, and countless other things that add richness to our lives."

K: but what underlines those things of emotional fulfilment or discovering new things,
or making plans for the future? what is the “bedrock” that make those things work?
it is the values we hold… for example, making plans for the future is important,
but, the value we hold allows us to make those choices… if we hold to values such
as anger, or hate or violence, then our future choices really won’t add up to much…
UR has said that “America needs hate to survive” and that is a future possibility,
of an engagement with hate as a value we hold into the future… but hate can only
begat hate…making plans for the future requires us to understand what values
we hold… the plans we make for a future, they are based on the values
we hold… if I am seeking to overcome who I am, traveling is a great way
to overcome that who I am… so my future plans will hold to traveling in
the future… perhaps Europe again or maybe Asia… and in traveling, I see
the values of others and I can learn from them…as to what to do or what not to do…
depending…we decide upon our future plans based upon why, why we are making
our future plans… If I am planning on a, say new career, then I need to understand
what the point of or the object of changing careers is going to be…and my values
drives that understanding… if you don’t see values as the primary driver of existence,
then I believe you miss the point of existence, that you, BTW is a royal you…
an everyone you…not a specific Maia you…

if I value money or material goods or titles, then my goals for the future become
different then if I value wisdom or peace or love… the values we hold drives
the goals we seek… If I make the gaining of knowledge my goal, then
my future plans will be different than if I am seeking wealth or titles or
material goods…understand the values and the point, the goals of the
future change…

Kropotkin

15

I don’t think there’s necessarily any objective point to existence, other than what we make of it ourselves. Or if there is a point, we are nowhere near evolved enough yet to have any idea what it could be. If planning your life around values and ethics is what works for you, then that’s absolutely fine. There are certainly much worse things to choose, such as, as you say, hate, which eats away at the human spirit. Personally, I think it’s important to take pleasure in the little things in life, the innocent things, and, of course, in nature itself.

16

Maia:
I don’t think there’s necessarily any objective point to existence, other than what we make of it ourselves. Or if there is a point, we are nowhere near evolved enough yet to have any idea what it could be. If planning your life around values and ethics is what works for you, then that’s absolutely fine. There are certainly much worse things to choose, such as, as you say, hate, which eats away at the human spirit. Personally, I think it’s important to take pleasure in the little things in life, the innocent things, and, of course, in nature itself.
[/quote]
K: but to take pleasure in such “little things” or perhaps in “nature” requires
the values necessary to enjoy those things… to enjoy nature is a value,
to enjoy the little things in life, that is a conscious choice, a value as it were…
if one makes the important thing in life, making money, then who gives a fuck
if we enjoy the “little things” in life or enjoy “nature” itself… in fact, if we
take the understanding of life to be making money, then I will see “nature”
as something to destroy to make money… I will see all those tree’s in terms
of how much money can I make from them… if, if that is my values…
a good deal of the Amazon Forest was burned down not too long ago,
and why? so developers can seize that land and develop it into houses,
and shopping malls and condo’s… nature only has value if you have values
that see’s nature as having value for itself…otherwise one can simple see
nature as a money-making machine…depending on your values…

Kropotkin

17

K: but to take pleasure in such “little things” or perhaps in “nature” requires
the values necessary to enjoy those things… to enjoy nature is a value,
to enjoy the little things in life, that is a conscious choice, a value as it were…
if one makes the important thing in life, making money, then who gives a fuck
if we enjoy the “little things” in life or enjoy “nature” itself… in fact, if we
take the understanding of life to be making money, then I will see “nature”
as something to destroy to make money… I will see all those tree’s in terms
of how much money can I make from them… if, if that is my values…
a good deal of the Amazon Forest was burned down not too long ago,
and why? so developers can seize that land and develop it into houses,
and shopping malls and condo’s… nature only has value if you have values
that see’s nature as having value for itself…otherwise one can simple see
nature as a money-making machine…depending on your values…

Kropotkin
[/quote]
Yes, I agree, in that sense, it’s a value, in that I value nature above money, for example. When I think of things like ethics, and morals, however, I’m mainly thinking of how I should treat other people.

18

Maia:
I don’t think there’s necessarily any objective point to existence, other than what we make of it ourselves. Or if there is a point, we are nowhere near evolved enough yet to have any idea what it could be. If planning your life around values and ethics is what works for you, then that’s absolutely fine. There are certainly much worse things to choose, such as, as you say, hate, which eats away at the human spirit. Personally, I think it’s important to take pleasure in the little things in life, the innocent things, and, of course, in nature itself."

K: but to take pleasure in such “little things” or perhaps in “nature” requires
the values necessary to enjoy those things… to enjoy nature is a value,
to enjoy the little things in life, that is a conscious choice, a value as it were…
if one makes the important thing in life, making money, then who gives a fuck
if we enjoy the “little things” in life or enjoy “nature” itself… in fact, if we
take the understanding of life to be making money, then I will see “nature”
as something to destroy to make money… I will see all those tree’s in terms
of how much money can I make from them… if, if that is my values…
a good deal of the Amazon Forest was burned down not too long ago,
and why? so developers can seize that land and develop it into houses,
and shopping malls and condo’s… nature only has value if you have values
that see’s nature as having value for itself…otherwise one can simple see
nature as a money-making machine…depending on your values…"

M: Yes, I agree, in that sense, it’s a value, in that I value nature above money, for example. When I think of things like ethics, and morals, however, I’m mainly thinking of how I should treat other people.
[/quote]
K; but if we take as our values, that making money is the single most important
thing, as capitalism itself does, then our values, our ethics/morals is that people
exists only to make me money…as modern corporations do see people, just
as a means to make profits, not as living, breathing people with values
and dreams and hope and desires… we exist for the value of making money…
no other reason…whether you value nature of the “little things in life”
is irrelevant if your values are that people only exists to make money…

where I work, I could die in the check stand and management would only
care because of the problem created by not having somebody to finish my shift…
if I am there or not, is completely irrelevant to corporate and my store managers…
as long as I am there to make them money… I am “valued”
once, I stop making them money, I am no longer wanted and will be fired…
that is not an assumption, that is a statement of fact…

that values we hold drive the actions we take…

this is true of us individually as well as us collectively…

if we value freedom over safety and security, that defines
our actions…and if we value safety over freedom, that too
will define our actions, as we have value safety over freedom,
we wear masks and we get vaccinated…if we value freedom
over safety/security, then we reject masks and vaccinations…

so, what do you value?

Kropotkin

19

K; but if we take as our values, that making money is the single most important
thing, as capitalism itself does, then our values, our ethics/morals is that people
exists only to make me money…as modern corporations do see people, just
as a means to make profits, not as living, breathing people with values
and dreams and hope and desires… we exist for the value of making money…
no other reason…whether you value nature of the “little things in life”
is irrelevant if your values are that people only exists to make money…

where I work, I could die in the check stand and management would only
care because of the problem created by not having somebody to finish my shift…
if I am there or not, is completely irrelevant to corporate and my store managers…
as long as I am there to make them money… I am “valued”
once, I stop making them money, I am no longer wanted and will be fired…
that is not an assumption, that is a statement of fact…

that values we hold drive the actions we take…

this is true of us individually as well as us collectively…

if we value freedom over safety and security, that defines
our actions…and if we value safety over freedom, that too
will define our actions, as we have value safety over freedom,
we wear masks and we get vaccinated…if we value freedom
over safety/security, then we reject masks and vaccinations…

so, what do you value?

Kropotkin
[/quote]
I value the natural world, family, friendship, love, freedom, helping others where I can, pursuing my interests, and so on. I don’t value money or material possessions very much.

20

Kropotkin: “what do you value?”

Maia: I value the natural world, family, friendship, love, freedom, helping others where I can, pursuing my interests, and so on. I don’t value money or material possessions very much."

K: and that is great… it really is, but why those values and not other values?

I hold that the key to life lies in the Socratic maxims of
“to know thyself” and " the unexamined life isn’t worth living"

have you examined why you hold those values as opposed to other values?

I too am not a materialistic person, if I were to sort out my things from my
wife, I would have several boxes of books and some clothes… not even a car
or a TV set… I have no aspirations to a big house, or a fancy car or even
a new couch… just give me books and life is good…

that is all I ask for and all I need…

Kropotkin