Science or Organized Religion?
Asking this is like asking who eats more, Ghandi or the rest of the world?
And I do mean that combined.
No contest… Any one who thinks they need to organize to do good clearly does not get the point… After awhile, form eats all the good and demands more…If the object were to exhaust the energy of the poor, and put good forever beyond their reach, then organized religion could be called a stunning success… Now, it is just stunning…
especially leftist governments
-Imp
Funny you should say that. That’s exactly what some of the scientists did. They were trying to organize and put up a front to accomplish something that they thought was good or noble or profitable.
I think some of the scientists implicated are probably completely innocent, some mistaken, and some incompetent. I’m largely on their side on this ‘scandal’, though.
But you’re right. Absolutely no contest.
All governments are organized to do good if you can believe the Philosopher, Aristotle… Or have you not read politics… I would maintain that all communities are organized for self defense, to protect the rights of their members, and the only sort that are not organized, but are natural, and the extention of the family, also provide for the same common defense of rights… The Constitution of the United States has the same defensive goals, and these are clearly set forth in the preamble… But to do good as individual requires no consent… Usually it is welcomed if not expected…
leftist governments eat their own for the “good of the community” …
trust that politician… especially the liberal ones who promise you the world…
-Imp
leftist governments eat their own for the “good of the community” …
trust that politician… especially the liberal ones who promise you the world…
-Imp
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So what would your yarn have to do with democracy??? In a democracy the people are the government, and no form of government could be more liberal than democracy; but what does democracy have in comon with us??? If we are manipulated by a bunch of demogoges who deiberately divide districts to deny representation, and all because we have no choice, and never had a choice; what resemblance does that situation have with democracy???.If we had a democracy we would not have to go begging to government, nor take promises in lieu of results…Democracy demands equality, and property rights makes the rich more than equal to any average citizen, and this difference in rights has led to a nation of small farmers and businessmen losing all their capital to corporations… Has inequality of rights worked for us??? Have property rights protected the rights of citizens, or competed with them, and destroyed them… The problem for you my dear man, is not that the liberals have a voice, but that all of us must talk louder than money to be heard… Can you tell me what good has come out of special rights for oganized religion or the press??? These people have used their rights to beat us out of our rights as much as those who own great wealth… Primarily, we have one problem, that we have unequal rights… Secondly, this inequality of rights has limited our representation in our only democratic body; the house… If we had the twenty representatives we should have for every one we have now, the place might resemble the madhouse this whole nation now resembles; but the difference would be that they could fight each other, and we could love our neighbors… When not you or I have enough representation we blame each other for thwarting our demands in government… You do only as your government wants in attacking me, when it should be the government that is attacked and by both of us…Our government is the enemy, and not because it is too liberal, because it is not liberal at all, and not because it is too conservative, because it is not conservative at all; but because it is entirely self serving…
everyone is self serving; I have no problem with that basic truth of human nature.
-Imp
And everyone should be self serving, as long as they express that self service through the medium of society…That is, if you want to prey on society; get out…If you want to serve yoruself as you serve the common good, then more power to you…
Philosophy obviously. 
fuck the common anything.
welcome to the jungle.
-Imp
But what if Ghandi lived an extra 1000 yrs. or so and gained a few million more followers to invite to his dinner table? Think there’d be any difference?
Are universities and think tanks not forms?
Impenitent also alluded, albeit in different terms, that governments are also forms.
Property is also not what is largely causing inequality, but the unequal power governments and your other forms have at their disposal. It does sound like you’ve been sheltered though, much like your progenitors who naively propounded democracy.
Absolutely correct…All you mention are social forms, and excepting the ideal of democracy which is more of a moral form, all work when they work to help to supply us our needs and give us meaning… No about governments…The government supports the legal fiction of equality even while bending all efforts toward wealth and property…Our economy, capitalism is not just a social form, but is also conceived of as an ideal, a moral form…It is simply impossible to maintain an effective democracy which depends upon politiccal equality when the economy works to make all people unequal, and to value people unequally according to wealth…
Impenitent;
You must read some anthropology, or perhaps even the classics of Western primitive literature…The early historical accounts of our Natives describe a general democracy… Because all these societies were primitive the want of technology demanded a superior level of social organization, one which demanded the honor of all, the minds of all, and the consent of all…Government was the method by which the common will was learned, and expressed…There was no right of government that one group could co-opt to the disadvantage of another… The only right was everyones right to survive if they could enforce their survival with a viable defense…Only in civilized societies could calss division be possible, and there they were made possible by abundance, fertility of climate and soil, and also by conquest… Civilization and slavery are indistiguishable…Most places in the world never new such abundance of civilization, and few could afford the cost of class division to defense… It was the technology of the stirrup that first made one horseman the equal of ten foot men that first made German and Gallic freemen into serfs, and horsemen into lords… And that was a relatively small advance of technology…What has changed???It is the control of the military, and intelligence technology that makes our political rights superfluous…We don’t really have any rights because we cannot resist…We must take what they offer because we cannot resist…We can elect any representative, but we cannot keep them from becoming corroded…We simply do not have the power to deny the rights of property, or property owners from influencing the course of government…It loses all balance… They once paid for their rights of property with nearly the total support of government, but having control of government they have passed taxes on to the poor… So the poor suffer the loss of their rights, and those with more rights end up with all rights…Even the smaller fish in the property pool find themselves gobbled up because with less property -they have less rights, and property is a game of more…And any country whose wealthy are the government is doomed… They cannot defend themselves because the best and only defense is a healthy society…Our wealthy will not even tax themselves to save their lives and country…They start crap with people and hand the bill to the poor…And they gamble with the military and treasure of the whole land knowing we will pick up the tab, and bankroll them without choice…What choice did we have with the bailouts???..With wealth they can deny revolution, but they cannot evade invasion…It is our wealthy who have thrown open the doors of this country for a slim profit, and it is they who have thrown away our splendid military for a handful of sandy blood…
if you wanted to stand up and have a revolution for the workers of the world you could.
pick up a gun.
-Imp
Imp;
I do resist; in the only way possible…With Intelligence…It is just a form, and forms are replaced all the time…Lose your faith…Disenthrall yourself… Stay home and think about it, or park in the road and think about it…When you are ready, quite cooperating in your own demise…drag your feet…Become an impediment to injustice…But the problem is not democracy… If we had it you might have to go along to get along, but my bet is that you would have more freedom than today…The tribes whether in Rome, or Greece, or Gaul or Germany all had more individual freedom than later states would allow…In primitive societies the people are the morality…In later society Morality is just a means of control…You can rail as you wish about the failures of government… Do you think you know enough to rationally compare one society with another, or one economy with another… The facts are there…It takes a few to sift through them…
Only problem is they don’t work… and never have. And never will.
Again, it’s not the economy or property that is largely responsible for this. If people wanted to ensure a democracy with political equality, i.e. no government monopoly, they would.
Inequality is not the main problem and never has been. Some more individuals are more intelligent, some more attractive, persuasive, shrewd, spiritual, etc. It is an inevitable fact of life that wouldn’t change even in socialism: except that socialism would make up for this through redistribution of wealth. But at what cost? At that of the flowering totalitarian regime of the new bourgeois elite?
Frame that… and reread it till it permeates
I don’t have to…The corruption and corruptibility of individuals has destroyed every form of society including natural ones…The concept of the individual has done the greatest harm because for individual pleasures many communities suffer and eventually die…
Both?
Define ‘con’.