Who created what? God vs Hawking

What did God actually create as outlined in Genesis 1:1-3? Let us consider the language/vocabulary/science limitations which were in place at the time of this ancient writting, and compare concepts found in the creation story with concepts found with-in the scientifically accepted creation of the universe theory, as presented in Steven Hawkings…Wave Function of the Universe Model.

It is my contention that concepts in Hawkings theory parallel concepts revealed in the ancient creation story.

When god began creating the heavens (heavens - the space surrounding or seeming to overarch the earth, in which the sun, moon and stars appear; visible sky; firmament) and the earth, the earth was at first a shapeless, chaotic mass, with the spirit of God brooding (brooding - to hover or loom in anticipation of creation) over the dark vapors.

As we see here in the opening of the creation story, the building blocks, if you will, for our universe, pre-existed the act of God creating the heavens and the earth. Basically what we see here are (quantum) particles in vapor like form. A shapeless, chaotic mass, characterized as dark vapors. An existing space/universe is described as containing some form of matter, but void of order…that is, no physical law, and perhaps no space/time continuum in place. Space obviously existed. Time in some form, Im not too sure about.

So here we have existing particles floating around in an orderless universe.

Hawkings theory assumes the existence of a 4 dimensional timeless hypersphere, in-which our universe resides. It also assumes the existence of an infinite wave (like a sine wave), that travels through this hypersphere, and fluctuates similar to that of an electrical sine wave. This motion (of an electrical wave) can be observed on the screen of an oscilloscope. This infinite wave is assumed to be connected with background radiation, which actually has been found and measured in our universe.
(One quick thing I would like to point out here are the terms ‘timeless’ and ‘infinit’…Two “supernatural” concepts found with-in the pages of the ancient writtings of the bible.)
Hawkings theory hypothesizes that an infinite number of universes exist. Universes, or realms of existence, are said to reside in the amplitude portions of the infinite wave, where quantum particles can be deposited and gather. The infinitesimally small particles can move from one amplitude of the wave to another, via the fucntion (fluctuation, movement) of the wave. So here we have existing particles which can move from one realm of existence to another. (such as from the spiritual realm to the physical realm?..hmm) It is theorized that our universe is the result of billions of quantum particles (enough to form all the matter/vapors in our universe) collecting in one of the amplitudes of this wave.

So here we have existing particles floating around in an orderless universe.

Wow…a book, thousands of years old, describes what our brightest physicists of today have discovered. How is this possible?
Have we really discovered timeless processes, and laws which have just always been? What about our ideas of cause and effect?
Does the Wave Fucntion process really allow movement from one realm of existence to another?
Do the supernatual elements spoke of in Hawkings theory provide substantiation for the supernatual elements spoke of in the ancient writtings of the bible?

Hmmmm…

There’s more…Shall I continue with the parallel?

seriously, Hawking should not be your only reading into physics, hes a good starting point to be sure; he points some of modern physics more funky aspects, but he doesnt relate the proper groundwork needed to actually understand.

Hawking in my experience has two readerships:

  1. Academics who have a basic groundwork in physics who want to ‘wowed’ by the scope of developments.
  2. People who want to be thought of as academics.

I dont claim to be able to argue against Hawking’s science itself, but you have filled in the gaps with some pretty ludicrous stuff. Some basic holes that need clarifying:

  1. The universe does not expand in space, space expands and pushes the particles apart.

  2. Without physical law, there is nothing we could call spacetime, and as such, quite obviously there is no time or space. Ie. If there is no movement through space which is measured (which there cannot be without physical law) then there is no time or space.

  3. The most important point: Dark vapours: quantum particles? I mean really. Is Little Bo Peep actually a modernist poem on alienation in a harsh rural environment? Or should we discuss how crouching tiger, hidden dragon is actually a subtly disguised thesis on the bendability of bamboo trees? It is simply too fine a thread of coincidence to be considered as a serious possibility, unless there is more primary textual linkage you havent told us.

  4. If Dark vapours really do mean quantum particles and the bible is accurate in a bizarre twisted fashion, then the analogy has curiously not actually been spectacularly helpful to modern physics (and a number of them are theists who would be intensely interested in this sort of thing). If i remember correctly, the church has held back scientific development in this regard since its creation to the present day (one of Hawkings contemporaries in evolutionary science was told by the Pope that the origin of the universe is still off limits to science even now).

Its nice, but needs more evidence.
Cheers.

oreso, there’s always an exception to the rule…I fall under niether of your Hawking readership catagories. I utilize the internet to penetrate once impenetrable knowledge structures. Impenetrable, that is, to all but certain academic types.

One must consider the era. You ask for clairification that Hawking himself has been unable to give. Which is why the theory, during this era of the origin of our universe, relys on the principle of ignorance. Simply put…we have no idea of the effect of timelessness (or time different than we know it). Likewise we have no idea of the effect of not having our known phyiscal laws in place. (laws different than ours may have existed during this era) Hawkings theory identifies both of these as having effect during this era of our universe.

oreso, for this concept to be written thousands of years ago, I think they did quite well using the terminolgy available to them at the time. Is not vapor comprised of particles?

Im glad to be of service, but the established scientific community is not ready to validate any ideas that come from outside their own knowledge structure. Not yet, that is.

dust,

do you think maybe your reading WAY to far into the bible?

seriously lets say that somehow the first chapter of genesis is describing quantum mechanics (which it’s not)

I contemplated posting up my own argument against this belief, or posting this superior argument that I linked to in the other thread. I decided just for reptition sake to quote the appropros section here.

The first account of genesis is nothing more than a flat earthers attempt to explain the origins of the universe. Applying quantum mechanics to it is absolute hubris.

let’s examine the contradictions and problems.

in verse 2 god says “let there be light” but hasn’t yet made the stars moon, or SUN.

what else is made before the all important sun? Plants. Somehow plants don’t require photosynthesis to work. Still think there is scientific validity to this account?

then lets move on… ah yes the ether. (the belief that space was filled with a watery liquid.)

the firmament is our atmosphere, (basically our world is a giant inversed fishbowl with water all around it.) and the water beneath the firmament and the water ABOVE the firmament. Science of god at work? or the fallible knowledge of man?

Why do we let the bible STILL decide how to interpret the world? I mean it’s fine to believe in a “god” or “spirituality” but to let your viewpoints be shaped by 2000 - 3000+ year old ideals? WHY?

scythekain, do yo see any similarities here…
a shapeless, chaotic mass of dark vapors
a shapeless, chaotic mass of quantum particles

The first thing God created was light.
Do you have any idea what this entails?.. OR… What processes would need to be put in place for light to even exist?

How can the SUN, moon, and stars even emit light, if the processes of light are not created and put into place first?
Furthermore, how could a man born, and educated over 3 thousand years ago, apparently grasp the concept of the process of light needing to be in place first before the sun, moon, and stars could even emit light?

Do you really think there is a contradiction?

Seriously…quantum physics and the theories there of, are not 100% accurate…they may be close but, there are some pieces missing from the puzzle, and other pieces that just dont seem to fit. Genesis may not be describing quantum cosmological processes (a theory produced by man), but I think the central issue is… processes… and God’s use of them to create. It’s not by magic He creates…it’s through process. Processes which possibly happen outside our known set of physical laws, and/or without the limitations of time as we know it. Both of which are phenomenon identified in quantum cosmology and…the Bible.

Can you acknowledge even a remote parallel?

D of E,

Why not a shapeless, chaotic mass of goldfish? The only ‘similarities’ is four words, “a shapeless, chaotic mass”. The bible version may contain creative imagery, but to suggest that the writer had even an inkling of the basic building blocks of the universe is incredulous.

The discernable light in the universe begins with thermonuclear reaction. Any other form of light can be traced back to this “process”. Light before accumulated mass sufficient to begin thermonuclear reaction contradict’s any of the known laws of physics. Either the biblical account has it backwards, or science has a very large hole in it’s explanation of physical laws.

Your interpretation is certainly colorful and creative, but any connection between the biblical account and scientific discovery is tenuous at best.

JT

no.

To do so would imply two things that I don’t believe.

#1) god inspired the writer of the bible.

or since I don’t believe in such divine interpretation,

#2) the author of this first creation account, knew about the vagueities of quantum mechanics.

either answer is unacceptable.

ok, did you read the cosmological argument against the existence of god?

tentative’s argument is well said, and well thought out.

ok, light can exist without an energy source to create the light, including the SUN, the moon (which reflects light from the sun) and the stars. All these things generate light through chemical processes. the burning of hydrogen for example.

so maybe the “light” was the big bang. does the really prove anything other than your tenous application of something scientific to something non-scientific to try and rationalize the existence of a non-existant being?

My guess is, that pre-science god-fearing man didn’t understand where and how light was created and thought LIGHT CAME FROM THE MOON!!! Now you can deny the fact all you want but the writer mentions them within the same line as “sun and stars”

Where did this god-fearing man think light came from? in order to know that you’d have to get within their mindset. It could be they thought light was generated within the globe of the earth itself. that the sun purveyed light and heat. the “light” spoke of firstly could be the “light of god” have you checked every translation? does the original hebrew for the “first light” literally mean light, or light as in holy? Maybe they thought light came from god?

who knows, but I’m certainly not going to say they grasped complexities like Quantum Physics or that god told him to write it down. Why only tell the judahs the sacred knowledge? Why not the Asians, Australians, Native americans, pygmies?

God of early man and even of today is ethocentric. Christ is even ethocentric.

I see no argument against the existence of God.
God created the universe utilizing some act of process. It is quite likely that our ‘origin of the universe theories’ identify some of that process. After all since God used it, it exists. If it exists we have an opportunity to discover it, even if we cant understand it.

What sort of information would you expect to be included in the ancient story of creation? Perhaps this would have been more convencing…

And God said let there be a thermodynamic function with internal interactions of emission, accretion and exerts energy units (quantum units) through dark matter.

Absurd!

When God says…“LET THERE BE LIGHT” this is an exceptable symbol for the creation of all processes necessary for light to exist. Do you not agree?

Nor am I, in fact that’s the point! They did not, and could not grasp such things, but God revealed to them what they could grasp, and they wrote it down. At the time of the writting, the understanding, nor the vocabulary existed to explain it any further.

No, “let there be light” is not sufficient to suspect the writer had any knowledge beyond really ancient ignorance (or was divinely inspired by something with such knowledge). “Let there be light” is what one would expect if you were having a best guess at what happened given the fact that your day always starts with sunrise (and the sun is the most important part of your daily life).

Merry Messiahmas oreso!

It is not the use of the term let there be light that indicates divine wisdom, but rather the sequence in which the creation of light occurs.

Hey thanks for the advice. The absolute hottest thing in physics right now is…The String Theory…otherwise known as…The Theory of Everything.

I found a particular hypothesis within the theory most fascinating. It deals with our universe/realm of existence being contained within a sort of resonating membrane. The theory also identifies a very finite number of parallel realms. Spiritual realm(s)?.

I love you, not literally

It seems to me that you really want to believe in religion but can find no logical reason to do so. You attempt to tie physics to it with interpretations of generalizations. A major problem I see with this is that religion claims the bible is truth, physics claims their work to be theories until proven fact. Hopefully you can see what I mean.

Dread, Im flabergasted at your statement here. Unbelievable!

It is not I who provide the logical reasoning…IT’S SCIENCE!

Science has now acknowledged through quantum cosmology models, and now the String Theory, that the existence of the very mysteries, which have been, and are associated with God, and the Heavenly Realms, do indeed exist.

To address your other statement…

The Bible is truth…science is discovering processes associated with some of that truth.

Our universe, and our very existence are precise, our scientific discovery methodologies of those things are blunt and clumsy in comparison…which is, indeed, reflected in our theories.

Dread you put me in mind of one who has been sleeping comfortably when suddenly the sun comes up and a ray of light shimmers through the curtains causing you to bury your head under the pillow to escape the light. :sunglasses:

D of E,

Uh, just how did you arrive at the conclusion that string theory is associated with God and the heavenly realms as posited in the bible?

It may be true that string theory provides some possible answers to several ‘mysteries’, but the connection to THE mystery is a bit fuzzy. Care to explain?

JT

i think when string theory says that this stuff is so incredibly small we cant imagine it, that is kind of a sign to me that we are never going to know much about their nature outside of the effects that they have on what we see.

we can manipulate them and make them focus their forces in a way that helps us, but we will never actually know where that stuff came from. i mean we can move around the electrons so they do stuff, but we cant currently imagine anyway to actually look at the thing.

i mean the idea of looking at an electron and finding out whats going on inside is a concept that is currently not a part of physics. there is no plan for looking at elementary particles themselves. all science does is throw them through a tube until they bash into another one. you can see how much they weigh compared to a standard like 1 proton, or how much they affect the universe outside their little shell.

you can never look at whats “actually going on in there”. if god wants to make a universe whose nature we can never discern, he did it.

Im not saying that the string theory is particularly associated to God. The relation/association lies in the happenstance of other realms of existence (other than the one we know and live in) being identified within the modern String Theory, modern quantum cosmology models, and of course within the ancient writtings of the Bible…i.e. the spiritual/heavenly realm.