Hi Phaedrus,
My oldest daughter often chats with atheisits online all the time. She had become friends with several of them and had invited them down to visit with her. One named Shawn lives Quebec visited with us who is an IT Tech for a computer company that sets up firewalls and we discussed Christianity. We had a civil discussion and he came to understand our position during his stay. There was no animosity, plus he enjoyed his stay. I’m not saying he had any epiphanies, but I felt he went away with a better understanding of Christian families to see that they are people like anyone else.
Another one from the Michigan area named John who is a playwright and is an atheist too. I found him to be an amiable person as he did us I believe. We went out to eat together and went sight seeing. He enjoyed our family and said he would like to come back to visit us in the future. Though religious discussion wasn’t as prevelant during his visit, we made him feel at home. Both he and Shawn both expressed their desire to come visit again. I would welcome that because we all shared good times.
We opened our homes and hearts to those two young men with whom we had no previous knowledge of and broke through a lot of preconceived notions. All Christians should open their hearts to welcome everyone so distrust will be a thing of the past.
I don’t think so. If rationality requires logical thinking (and I think he claims to use logical thinking), he is making some mistakes (in logical sense).
I would say again that it requires valid method to evaluate “true” or “false”.
Without valid method, we can’t evaluate.
It’s similar to measuring distance. Without unit, be it miles or KM, we can’t evaluate the distance.
Also, to declare something complex to be “true” in certain point of view (using valid method for it), all components must be “true”.
Can you understand these?
If you can, you should be able see why his thinking is irrational.
If you can’t I’d suggest you to learn more about logical thinking.
Actually it was more than sufficient to see invalidity of his thinking.
In general, I don’t think religions help people in developing logical thinking.
I know. If it wasn’t sufficient, you would quit believing it.
And I don’t think it’s generally sufficient for logically well developed person.
No problem. I wasn’t asking for your comment. I was simply answering to your questions.
I don’t consider it as “moral”. It’s just preferences and conditioning.
I’m a lazy person. So, I prefer to live simply.
Oh, by the way, I think people can generally get along with or without religion, other than very fanatic narrow minded people.
It’s especially true when there is some sort of attraction present in the relationship (common interest, common ground, etc).
In your story, I think it can be your daughter who is attracting these guys.
Now, would you be happy if your daughter decide to marry with an atheist (or a Muslim, bi-sexual, alien…I mean immigrant from different culture with different religion) ?
I understand what you are trying to emphasize, but in an earlier post I had in the ‘Religion’ folder, I state “Logic and reason won’t explain God”. Since this is based on a belief system, using logical thinking to claim his thinking is irrational just formulates an opinion.
Religious people think logically, it’s just you apply your values and reasoning in something you don’t fully understand. Religious people live the real world alright, they want something more in a spiritual sense which helps with the mundane aspects of this physical universe.
Of that, there is no doubt. She is an attractive girl with a good heart that people recognize right away. Their invitations to come over to our house was her mother’s and mine. At the time my daughter invited them down to visit, she had (has) her own apartment. The two young men stayed in motels which they had arranged before coming.
You have switched the subject.
I was talking about the logical thinking in the site you recommended.
Do you see the short coming in his faulty logic?
Also, if you can’t explain God with logic, then your God is probably illogical and the religion based on you God, as well.
If so, trying to claim the “true” evaluation by rational (logical) thinking is wrong thing to do, from the beginning, and it’s can be sen as lie/hypocrisy.
Are you saying ALL religious people think logically?
Do you claim to understand logical thinking?
Again, how can you pretend to be the representative of ALL religious people?
You don’t know them all, do you?
If you want to show that religious people can think logically, you need to learn and practice more, by yourself.
As long as you demonstrate like this, I’d say you are actually harming your religion.
You know, we say these things but often fail to really think about them, or reflect on the way we think. If you meditate on being mindful of what you say and out of what motivation you do things, so that you observe yourself during the day, you will find that we permanently weaken our statements by contradicting them in what we do, or weaken our deeds by saying something stupid. In my view, we Christians ought to be out changing this.
This is where we vary slightly, since I believe that Jesus shows us how to be spontaneous, and not too deliberating. That is why the equity of the children of God should “exceed that of the scribes and the Pharisees” – it is not that they should try to do more good things, but that they have fewer limits where they could avoid allowing loving-kindness to flow. This influences their prayer and meditative life, widens their hearts and broadens their anticipation of grace. It means that we don’t even ask, but rather we let love flow freely.
I was citing an adjunct to Mr. McKenzie’s site in that his belief is an opinion. The logic you want to apply to it won’t answer your questions, You are wanting empirical proof from his opinions of what he believes the Bible and his religion encompasses. This isn’t possible if you don’t believe either is logical…and that is fine. His site and opinions are largely intune with my thoughts which you probably find illogical. That is perfectly fine with me too. I’m not embarrased or ashamed to align myself with God, Jesus or the Bible. Mr. McKenzie and I both apply faith in that regard. Faith is the basis in the belief of God. For you this may not be rational or logical…again that is okay too. Belief is trust in something which may no be tangible which allows for opinion. In that (and I’m generalizing) Mr. McKenzie, myself and Chrisitians find that logical. It’s just a different logic you use. Now your probaly thinking “but Liteninbolt said 'Logic and reason won’t explain God”. In that quote I am referring to ‘logic and reason’ which empiricism desires.
Again I am speaking in general terms. All Christians (the Christianity I am familiar with) do think things using logic and reason as well. Somewhat like you would mean if you would state ‘atheists have no belief in any spiritual, religious or deity’. For Christians, the logic and reason they use in their belief system concerns their religion, not one that would aver that water is wet or fire is hot.
I understand logical thinking you are referring to. The one that utilizes empiricism in deducing or congruency. I don’t think a litany is necessary here to explain further.
Again I was generalizing. I’m fairly certain that most if not all wish to have a spiritual connection with God that is described in the Bible (the one that contains The Old And New Testament). I know I want a spiritual relationship with God.
As far as learning more about thinking logically, we all probably need to assess how we think now and then.
If I’m harming Christianity without being privy to it, I’m fairly sure God will forgive me or somehow bring it to my attention.
If my daughter finds someone that makes her happy, then I will be happy. All mothers and fathers can do is raise their children in a way that will allow them to make responsible, sensible decisions. In most regards, she still ask our advice in all aspects of life.
That is why I believe supplication is important in Christian belief. We must try (but it doesn’t happen always…I know because I’m guilty of it) being agents for the Lord in all we do. Sometimes Christians fall short of that intent. Prayer helps us in reflection of our daily lives. God understands we aren’t perfect and forgives us like we would if our children make a mistake. Once we realize our mistake, we need to rectify that by asking forgiveness of the offendees. As long as we don’t intentionally commit the same act repeatedly, I feel the Lord will let our hearts know.
For example, in a topic put forward by Felix titled ‘Heaven for the Godless?’, I tersely answered concerning ‘The New York Times’ about that publication being liberally oriented. Not realizing my disrespectful reply to his attempt to inform, I started thinking about what I had written later. Upon reading his response to mine, I believe God spoke to my heart telling me I let my emotions had gotten away from me. I replied back and asked his forgiveness for behavior of that reply. Felix kindly responded and said it was not a problem and explained that some would consider that paper to be of a liberal nature. He was most kind.
Bob, I’m sure not all Christians think totally alike. Our environments, where and when we live influences how people practice their Christianity. As you might know, some Christians (or how they are portrayed through history) have commited atrocities in the name of God. Only God knows what motivated those people to perpetrate those acts against His Will. In my regard, I feel Christians must with love and patience show their children some direction regarding their religion. We all won’t agree on the methods being used, but if we use true love and patience, hopefully in time, God will speak to children too.
People have been having issues understanding nothingness for centuries. Today faced with experimental verification of Vaccum Energy and other physics that I understand less, I think we either have to admit that nothing is a lot more creative then we had previously thought, or perhaps more consitantly be skeptical about the existance of ‘nothing.’ I’m starting to think more and more that nothing is a chimera. Just like unicorn is a fancifal union of Horse and Horn, nothing is a not very creative union of No and Thing. At the end of the day there may be no unicorns and no nothing.
In any case, I think the big bang doesn’t instantly fall apart when skimmed quickly.
I think that the idea of being an “agent for the Lord” has certain dangers. I like to think of myself as a “Son of Man” called to my full humanity by Christ. That which I am lacking is filled up by God in prayer and meditation, completing and transcending me beyond my carnal needs. People who are “agents for the Lord” often forget that this is not something which has been completed at conversion, because perfection is not spotlessness. If you take the word for perfection literally it means completion, indicating that sin is not only deviation but also being incomplete, lacking the realisation of our sentience.
Having said that, I believe that such completion varies from person to person and depends upon circumstances of life. That means that this maturity comes about individually, depending on the person, much like children are not all from the same template. If that is so, you can hardly expect the same template in evangelisation to work for everybody; it becomes clear that we all have to be reached personally. Forgiveness is not only a moral issue, or needed after a deviation from expectation, it is also a healing process for those wounds sustained in a harsh world without God. It isn’t just the twinge of conscience but a pain of separation that causes a contrite heart.
A nice example! Our problem is that we (me too!) react to certain stimuli in the way we have been conditioned to do so – which is equally a part of the problem. The trick is to know where and how we have been conditioned so that we can remain calm when that stimulus comes along. There are also pious stimuli and conditioning, which mean well, but contribute as much to the problem as anything else.
Ecc 3:1-11
(1) To all there is an appointed time, even a time for every purpose under the heavens:
(2) a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pull up what is planted;
(3) a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build up;
(4) a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
(5) a time to throw away stones, and a time to gather stones; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
(6) a time to seek, and a time to give up as lost; a time to keep, and a time to throw away;
(7) a time to tear, and a time to sew together; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
(8) a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
(9) What advantage has he who works in that which he did as a laborer?
(10) I have seen the task which God has given to the sons of men, to be humbled by it.
(11) He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, He has set eternity in their heart, without which man cannot find out the work that God makes from the beginning even to the end.
I guess I need to remind you that you put this thread in question.
I asked you questions to see your ability and understanding on certain matter, which you have been avoiding to answer.
Other than not able to recognize simple logical fallacies the guy committed in the site, you aren’t very sincere in the way you answer.
And I’d say you are trying to represent Christianity with your very limited understanding of rationality and dishonest attitude in discussion.
If you say each person has different rule in logical thinking, then “Christian logic” can be crafted to prove Christianity in whatever some fanatic fools want to prove, while “Muslim logic” and any other “Sectarian logic” would do the same.
In short, it won’t prove anything to other people and thus pretty useless, other than the effect of self comforting to those who need it.
I don’t think you can think logically, nor the guy.
You don’t know how to think in the particular manner, yet.
The guy pretended to understand logic and then misused.
It’s as if someone pretend to understand bible and then start quoting Buddhist scroll or Satanist saying, instead.
Then, I’d say stick to your faith. Don’t try to supplement lacking faith with fake logic, because doing so would harm your religion in the way you are currently doing.
If it’s not rational, logical, don’t pretend to be.
It’s absurd, silly and hypocrisy.
If its’ your strange Christian version of logic, as you want to claim, be clear on that point and DON’T pretend that it’s an ordinary logic for everyone.
Any person can have any different opinion.
When someone pretend a lot and don’t demonstrate it, it’s often considered as hypocrisy/lie/etc.
If you think you can talk for ALL Christians whom you don’t know, I think it’s rather silly.
There are many Christians, and some of them understand logic far better than you and the guy who made the silly site with many faults.
Rather, your understanding of logic is a bit too poor, in my view.
Now, if you want to continue discussing, can you explain the basic nature of your “Christian logic”?
Since you pretend a lot to understand it well, you should be able to do it.
As you are talking to people other than Christians, please do it without using any Christian term, I mean using simple ordinary terms and examples that non-Christians can understand.
I think “Generalization” like you are doing this thread is a sort of defense mechanism to divert attention from your own short comings.
By enlarging the focus of attention to larger (imaginary group which you can’t even know well), you can feel less threatened. It’s to dilute the fear, so to say.
It’s similar to hiding among group of other people you think you belong to.
Again, if so, the “Christian logic” doesn’t mean much to non-Christians.
Using it to explain things to non-Christian would be mostly futile.
It’s like talking in Chinese to non-Chinese speaker. It wouldn’t make much sense.
And you aren’t making much sense.
I doubt it. If you insist, can you indicate few example of logical fault you can find in the site you recommended so highly?
It should be very easy if you really understand.
Again, you are trying to shift the attention from your own ability to that of all.
I guess it’s your preferred way of hiding.
You don’t have to wait for a god. I’ve already bought it up to your attention.
I guess you are taking my message as that of Satan.
My intent of posting this thread was so others may look and decide for themselves. If you don’t agree with it, that is fine. I haven’t avoided answering any of your questions. It’s just my responses you won’t accept as my answers.
I am being very sincere with my in responding to your queries. There is no doubt my education isn’t equal to some, but dishonesty on my part concerning my responses simply isn’t so. If you think otherwise, then you’re welcome to your opinion.
I can’t speak for other religious people (including Christians), how they are perceived is in the eye of the beholder. Again, you are welcome to your opinion. It was my opinion some might be interested in checking out the site I had hi-lited. As for proving Christianity, that was not my goal in the OP. It was merely there for people to view.
Again…your opinion. I was not soliciting one. Observations are always a part of philosophising.
I don’t see it that way. His thinking is fine with me. I could somewhat understand someone else whose non-belief of any deity might come to that conclusion.
That would be fake logic as you perceive it. My years in Christianity enhances my logic of it everyday. So far as harming Christianity, I’ll stand by my previous replies concerning that.
It’s not pretense on my part. Christianity seems rational, logical and fulfilling for me.
I don’t know how others qualify Christianic belief in their lives. It’s quite probable some do think like I do
Again, it’s not pretense on my part. Perceptions of it’s value will for others to decide.
It wouldn’t surprise me if there are Christians who can argue God and the Bible better than me. I’m also not surprised my logic isn’t up to others standards.
I would like to continue study of the Bible concerning God. It’s doubtful I will ever learn enough to help others know of God’s love or any other Christian for that matter. If that was so, God would have made it possible for that to be so. So, in the meantime, I will do the best I can.
You don’t use generalizations when you make points in debates? Don’t we all have short comings? But I’m not using ‘general terms’ for hiding. It’s a common tool for displaying one’s thoughts.
I’m trying my best. Not everyone will comprehend what I try to convey.
Since religion doesn’t have relevance in your life thus far and you have no desire to seek out any, it’s probable any explanation I give will satisfy you. As I had indicated earlier, I posted that site for others to view. It seems you have examined it and don’t find it applicable to your way of thinking. I doubt I could do better than the site itself
As you have reiterated.
Certainly not! You are wanting answers in which you feel I can’t provide. Maybe someday someone will be able to clarify where I can not.
Yes, evangelism tempered with wisdom and patience would seem to be the better part of discretion. People who are young in their Christianic belief should choose their words and actions wisely. Forgiveness does promote healing for the both (or more) parties involved.
This scripture citing is very apropos for my connotation. I had forgotten about it…thank you for posting it.
You have actually avoided my question about your daughter and then answered later when I reminded you.
I like forum discussion because it makes attempts of deception pretty visible.
Then, please answer directly to these questions.
Do you think you are capable of thinking logically (not with Christian logic, but with the ordinary logic non-Christian uses/understands)?
If you think you are capable in thin king logically, do you see logical faults committed in the site (Again, not with Christian logic, but with ordinary logic)?
You did speak for ALL Christians. Don’t you remember?
I didn’t ask what you want to do.
I asked about the “Christian logic” you pretended to know, and you avoided to answer, again.
Nah, I wasn’t avoiding anything when you had first asked questions about my daughter. It was an oversight.
Secondly, I have answered your questions which to my mind is quite sufficient for me. You perceive it as avoiding or pretending which it is also not.
I replied as well as I can and am not your forum whipping boy when you don’t like answers I give. This debate is getting circular and tiresome.
The OP was intended for people to view the site I had linked if they so desire. They can make their own decisions about what it says. I was happy to answer the questions you brought up, but I don’t appreciate the attitude you are adopting in trying to trap me in some notion you feel you need to satisfy.
It’s obvious we are just going to have to agree that we disagree. Thank you.
Oh, I see.
In the last post, I asked only you two questions and you are again missing.
Then you can answer questions in my last post.
Maybe you need to have better endurance, as well.
You insist that you don’t avoid answering questions.
Where is the answer to two last questions?
And you consider yourself honest and sincere, on top of pretending to representing ALL Christians.
Are you supposed to pretend a lot (to the point I’d call it lying), according to your religion?
One cannot argue with history… and history has taught us that the number 1 reason that people have ascribed to christianity was to avoid being burned at the stake, tortured, or murdered.
