why doesn't seperation of church and state work?

to understand this question we must first look to the past.

When copernicus discovered that the Earth was not the center of the universe, it through the theocracy into a state of panic. Their first response was to kill his colleagues, and then have him publicly denounce that the sun was the center of the solar system.

In early america, we had the salem witch trials, which should honestly be a huge embarrasment for anyone who even tries to take the bible literally.

The next scientific theory to send such shockwaves through the religious community would be evolution. Evolution changes everything, it takes power away from the invisible god and gives it to natural explainable and veritable causes. (but for the sake of balance you can believe god was the force behind the change.) It was shortly after this that in the 20’s a trial took place regarding a teacher teaching evolution in the classroom. It was ungodly and had to be stopped. And it was stopped.

then in the mid 1900’s there were radical extremist christian groups (like the KKK) trying to pass legislation to make blacks “seperate but equal”.

and now we are in the modern times they are trying to deny homosexuals basic human rights. Nothing’s changed except for the number of people who realize these groups are extremely irrational. And for evolution, some christians accept others deny it as a possibility at all. It’s satan science.

feel free to add or comment to this.

all evidence points to the following: religion is the rallying cry of the stupid who have no control over the world or ability to understand it. they can understand their god and the rules for controlling him are clearly stated. instead of relying on their innate superiority over other people for their success and subsequent happiness in life (like we do) , they are stuck trying to please a dude in the sky who controls all and rewards blind devotion in ambiguous, unspecific, unobservable and therefore quasi-believable ways.

the key to overcoming religion is knowledge. the church is continually retreating behind the similarly retreating veil of scientific mystery. maybe they should just admit that hiding directly behind the veil isnt so smooth and perhaps turns off a lot of people who have certain standards of truth that include things like evidence.

vote future man for pope, worldwide church membership will follow shortly

I disagree. In fact I disagree a lot. Make that, I really really disagree with that statement.

It’s comparable to me putting you in my truck and trailer and then calling you stupid because you couldn’t back it into a really tight spot with one try. Or calling you an idiot because you can’t weld like I can or carve stone like I do.

People who rely on religion for an explanation just haven’t had the inclination if not the opportunity to really think about the issues involved.

Intelligence has nothing to do with it. Some of the smartest people I know believe in Jesus. A couple of more believe in Islam.

I once shook the hand of man who gave me one of my greatest complements. First his hand was like my own. It wasn’t a pretty thing. Someone doing an autopsy with a little natural curiosity and a fair share of imagination could spend hours looking at the hand going somewhere without leaving the room.

He looked me in the eye, nodded his head as a token of respect, and said, “in Pakistan the domes for our temples are made by artisans. Each one is different because it was made by a different artisan. But in the United States and Canada it seems all the domes come from the same supplier. They’re all exactly alike. Except for ours. Ours was made by a local artisan. Thank you.”

And just like he believes Jesus was a prophet like Mohammed was a prophet and that one God answers his prayers. He believed my work was an answer to prayers.

He wasn’t stupid.

He just didn’t understand.

Happens to all of us.

sure religion makes people feel important or like a good community if they have something in common to rally behind, but when they follow rituals that dont have any logical benefits, such as banning gay marriage, they are stupid. they are desperately trying to placate a god they dont understand, but that the church has fooled them into thinking they can please anyway.

their are alot of intelligent people involved in religion future man so you can’t say that religious is the rallying cry of the stupid. It’s the rallying cry of something, I’ve yet to figure out what.

here is what I think so far.

People in religions with an afterlife tend on average to be more close minded about issues regarding what is and what is not moral.

People in said religions are worried about what will happen after they die. They focus more on that then they do on the present. Thus many people in said religions deny such fundamentals as evolution, or global warming etc.

People in said religions have several problems. When confronted they use a “god gap” really the god gap is no better than the alien gap. It explains nothing. Where did god come from? where did the aliens come from? did another race step in to help them? somewhere along the line you run into a beginning with no explanation wether you choose evolution, god, or alien.

Evolution says everything began with the big bang. What caused the big bang? what was before the big bang?

Christians say everything began with god. What created god? what was before god?

then you have the aliens. Did they evolve on their own? Did another alien species help them along? and if so what started that alien species?

along the same subject as my first post, christian creationists want intelligent design or creation science taught in public schools, if we do that why not also teach about Zacharia Sitchens theories of our beginnings? or other such Alien genetic manipulation?

Each “beginning theory” has holes. Holes that we will probably never know the answer to.

both me and evangelicals could be described as ‘religious’ in that we believe in god and afterlife. i have god gapped those two things and i enjoy believing that they are connected and even that the golden rule and its logical goodness are related to those things.

the difference between me and the evangelical is that i use logic to believe things that truly fully make my life better. the evangelical believes he needs to go to church every sunday because some higherup hundreds of years ago had a great idea for making money without tithing the cash right out of peoples paychecks.

the evangelical believes its the will of god, i believe its the secret will of rich guys in charge.

the only reason youd want to employ logic with religion is not to prove or disprove god, but to prove or disprove the superfluous rituals, the only thing that separates one legitimate religion from another.

you can prove the golden rule, you can disprove banning gay marriage. thats why they are stupid. like sheep led by an evil shepard who leads them around aimlessly to fatten them up and then lures them into his shack to rip the top layer of their skin off, kill them and sell the corpse to the highest bidder.

alan watts, the book.

it is this division that drives them together. the in from the out. the state sure does not want to be out.they want seem infallible and the best way to do this is to have some form of seemingly dvine backing. unfortunitly, it violates that troublesome document known as the constitution. (i urge you to look up the war and emergency powers act).

We seriously have to consider the Seperation of Church & State. We are being threatened by the Religious Right, and they want to push on their supernatural, grandiose, and illogical beliefs into the government. Yes, the Founding Fathers believed in a Supreme Being, but they also understood that religion should not be within the confines of the political arena. I am glad scythekain alluded to Copernicus discovering that it was the earth that revolved around the sun, not the sun revolves around the earth. It is ignorance and fear of difference that drives many religious folks (mainly the patriarchal dogmas) to try to force-teach many dogmas that do not make sense and are very oppressive.

Now, I have met many openminded religious individuals as well. I have met Wiccans, Buddhists, Daoists, and ‘‘Unitarians’’ who believe that we must search for ‘‘knowledge’’ and hold on to ignorance and destructive belief systems. These beliefs seem to be more passive, less oppressive, less patriarchal-dominated, and make more ‘‘sense’’ in the sense of what a god or supernatural entity may or may not be. We have been subjected to systematic force of “accepting the flow” of society. Progressives are usually regarded as “radicals” and “odd people.” It is up to the individual person to decide what it is that compels them to change something unjust, something they feel strongly for/against, and develop their own individual gifts and bents. And this is the threat against the Seperation of Church & State.

Many evangelists are saying that we want to ‘‘demoralize’’ the nation. Yet, it is all about the $$$. They are hiding behind a church with their moral speeches, while profiteering out of people’s feeble minds. And now they want to push their dogma in our American public school system as they so successfully did in regions of the Bible Belt of America??

Hell No.

You got it, scythekain.

Which is why many issues are being disregarded and religious views and being pushed into politics with self-interest and in full intent of converting society. We face the problem of rising healthcare, environmental disaster, unemployment rates, poverty levels, and many of the Religious Right-wingers are worried about the Apocalypse!

What pisses me off sometimes is when some right-wing hard-line Christian says the Founding Fathers were Christians and founded this country as a Christian nation. Such fools only see what they want to see, not the fact that most of the Founding Fathers, especially Jefferson who wrote the document that this nation was founded on, were Deists and had a level of distaste with Christianity.

Um, where are you, that you’re finding examples of these groups insisting that we must search for knowledge? I’ve yet to find ONE (wiccans especially) who will even admit that there is such a thing as knowledge, much less that one ought to be bothered looking for it.

The truths they/we hold to be true…What book, or ancient writtings did those come from…hmmm…I wonder :sunglasses:


jefferson was a deist freemason - read this story (and no I don’t think he made the right choice personally, he must be going senile in old age :stuck_out_tongue: )


so he probably compiled it from christian beliefs and what the mason founders made up about their personal god, if I’m not mistaken masons believe that they can become demi-gods.

lol, I’ve said that so many times.

it’s interesting looking at something I wrote nearly a month ago, and seeing how much further my atheism has come since then. lol.

I was on to something then, and I hit dead on the head.

without an afterlife christians would abandon the religion. If christ (or those who wrote the new testament) had christ say “you are all sinning and you must do what I say to be free from sin. Your reward that you will be sin free”
“what of the afterlife rabbi?”
“There is no life after this, once your dead your dead”
“What the bloody hell am I going to follow you for then?”
(Jews from christs time have to speak in an english accent - life of brian)

Seriously question that. Why do you submit to christ? on the promise of an afterlife, because you believe that you are in a state of perpetual sin?

why would god grant exclusive saving to one group and have them spread it around if he was all powerful? why not just save all mankind in one stroke and appear in the sky and say:
“Hey guys, here I am, don’t worry about screwing up, I’ll give you all a get into heaven free pass. I realize I screwed up when I didn’t explain to Adam and Eve the full consequences of eating of the tree of knowledge.”

Seriously. If god REALLY wanted to save us why take such an obfuscate way about it?

what d’you mean it doesn’t work? it works perfectly in france, i reckon
you’re talking about US now, right?
i think it could work very well, but only if people want it to work that way…

Hi Uccisore.

One of the mentioned to me;

Of course not exactly

She went on to say that SCIENCE in and of itself helps Wiccans be more in tune with ‘‘nature’’ by gathering knowledge of nature since they believe nature is a reflection of their selves.


Most of the Founding Fathers were DEISTS free thinking Masons. Deists actually believe some sort of ‘‘intelligence’’ started the universe, not necessarily a god/goddess/supernatural being.

They weren’t Christians :imp:

You reckon right :cry:

My girlfriend is a Wiccan, and I’ve always known her to have an open mind to learn about the universe. The search for knowledge is the ultimate end of why we’re here. To better understand our surroundings and selves is to better understand the meaning of it all.

He was also a Grand Master of the Knights Templar in the Merovingian Order…

Oh my you guys…Separation of Church and State is so undefined its not even funny…

Thomas Jefferson mentioned Separation of Church and State in a letter to a bunch of Baptist in Connecticut in 1802, because they were worried that there would be a state governed church like they did in Britain…

So the original meaning of Separation of Church and State was that the church cannot rule over the government and the government cannot rule over the church. But these liberals are misinterpreting it and using it to their advantage…posting the Ten Commandments in public buildings does NOT violate the first amendment, but they say it violates Separation of Church and State, which is NOT in the Constitution and is not even a law…so dont use Separation of Church and State as an excuse to take religion out of the public.

Oh my you drummer dude…you’re new!