Why has quality of discourse dropped in the religion forum?

Felix,

There are a number of the old timers who left for various and sundry reasons, mostly because of the lack of reason. Much of the fractiousness in the past came from the inability of so many to seperate personal experience from shared discourse. Personal experience may inform a personal “truth”, but it does not follow that anyone else shares that truth in any but a vague generalized way.

You mentioned Bob, a former moderator of this forum and a long time contributor. Bob and I became good friends even as we came from opposite ends of the spectrum of belief. Why? Because we recognized that it is about spirituality and not the brand of religion. We always ended up in the same place regardless any disagreements within any particular discussion. It was the same with others who have drifted away.

You ask about the quality of discourse? That might not be the right question. Discourse has to a large extent, been replaced with diatribe. There are plenty of soap boxes and not enough street corners… :wink:

Hi tentative. The fractiousness seems to have died down, but it doesn’t seem as interesting. The way I am thinking of the issue you raised is “how we hold our opinions.” If we recognize that our opinions are just opinions does that improve the quality of discourse over a situation in which we think we know we are right and the other wrong?

Felix, what is wrong with you? You’re trying to inject reason! In religion, there can be no “opinion” There is only the word of God. (bible. koran, what have you) Further, since God is infallible, he would not allow untrue words in his holy book. (bible, koran, what have you) As a believer, I have no opinion, my utterances are absolute statements of God’s truth. If discourse seems a little flat, it just might be that some people have recognized that there is no talking to those who already know how it is. We mustn’t forget that belief is an act of faith, not reason. And now… back to the soapbox.

Is it true that in religion there can be no opinion? I thought I was religious and yet I have opinions. If any of those books are the Word of God, as soon as I use m y poor powers of comprehension to understand what God is saying opinion enters in. At best I have opinions about the “absolute statements of God’s truth.” Some may have left because they recognized there’s no use talking to those who know how it is. Others may have left because they were beginning to doubt they knew how it is. Do faith and reason always have to be opposed?

I was at the bookstore the other day and noticed a book in the philosophy section called “The religious case against belief”. I didn’t really look at it - just glanced at a page or two - but you two and possibly others might be interested.

You sound bored. :slight_smile:

No, felix. Reason and faith can be held at the same time. But if there is any dissonance, faith trumps reason every time. (in religion) But as always, I see a distinct line between religion and spirituality. Any number of members here have tried to mesh faith and reason - until reason challenges the basis of faith, and the fall back is always faith. The assumptions that have to be made to embrace religion assure this. If you stop for just a second, you can see one of those assumptions at work.

I appreciate and admire your willingness to have questions and your understanding that your answers are opinion, but your statement assumes the palpable real existence of a God. Reason finds no proof of that beyond the opinion within personal experience. See how sneaky our assumptions are? How do you apply reason with someone whose assumptions deny that there is a god? Both of you have faith in your diametrically opposed beliefs, and where is discourse?

Reason suggests that while we may have a spiritual experience, and most of us have, what that “something” is cannot be shared in any but a vague personal awareness. Reason says that with only personal opinion as confirmation of is - isn’t, silence is the only option. Awareness isn’t the same as knowing anything, and the moment we create the name, begin assigning attributes and powers, we create something not of that spiritual awareness, but an idol. A man-made idol called God which is the core of all religions.

I think it is perhaps the most important understanding a human can have, to be aware of that “something” and simultaneously be aware that the mystery of it all must remain a mystery. In that, religion becomes irrelevant and discourse becomes focussed on the questions of how shall we live? But few are those who can preserve spirituality and religion at the same time. This forum is testimony to that fact.

What’s the distinct line between religion and spirituality?

The assumption was made with conscious choice of the word “if”. It didn’t sneak in. Once a guy asked me, “Do you believe in God” and I replied “I can.” Belief in that sense has to do with what assumptions you are traveling with.

I think the great mystics of history came to realize that experience can be undermined. The way of faith they pointed to didn’t depend on experience.

The primary mystery I am aware of is the mystery of being. That’s a mystery for the universe and for me, myself and I as part of the universe. You may be right about the religious. But I still judge my encounters with each on a case-by-case basis.

A little. I admit my opinion is merely subjective.

Welcome to the death of the internet and the birth of a new generation!

We are generation of children who accumulate vast knowledge like we accumulate the latest toys.
Used only once as there is always something that shines and promises a lot more.

A generation of surface dwellers who cannot even imagine what lies beneath the surface.

Well, I offered the Ebionite reaction to Pauline Christianity and Foucault’s ideas on religion and madness. Reactions dwindled down to those from Bob, for whom I have great respect. So why offer here anything that requires reading and thinking? The forum has to decide whether it is an arena for debate or a chat room.

Ier,

You mean there’s a difference? :astonished:

I’m still reading and thinking about the origins of Christianity. As I recall it that discussion came to be about which group represented genuine Christianity. Since there is no consensus about that in the world at large we were unlikely to arrive at one here. On the other hand, there was plenty of food for thought including some of the information presented by The Paineful Truth. I might have missed your offering on Foucault.

I must have missed this somehow…I’ll have to go looking.

On rereading these threads I find I was mistaken. There were many considerate and well-thought-out responses. I guess I just miss Bob, even when I disagree with him.

Bob posted on “Two Christianities” yesterday.

Noted! And I always appreciate your input!

I’m happy to see old friends posting here again. It has already made it more interesting. :smiley:

This editorial supports the view that there has been a lull in religious conflicts in America of late:

A culture war cease-fire

By E.J. Dionne Jr.
Thursday, December 24, 2009; A15

It is 2009’s quiet story – quiet because it’s about what didn’t happen, which can be as important as what did.

In this highly partisan year, we did not see a sharpening of the battles over religion and culture.

Yes, we continued to fight over gay marriage, and arguments about abortion were a feature of the health-care debate. But what’s more striking is that other issues – notably economics and the role of government – trumped culture and religion in the public square. The culture wars went into recession along with the economy.

The most important transformation occurred on the right end of politics. For now, the loudest and most activist sections of the conservative cause are not its religious voices but the mostly secular, anti-government tea party activists.

Especially revealing is the re-emergence of former House majority leader Dick Armey, a prime mover behind the tea parties and a longtime critic of the religious right. He once said that James Dobson of Focus on the Family and his allies were a “gang of thugs” and “real nasty bullies.”

Armey and his supporters speak a libertarian language that contrasts sharply with the message of Christian conservatives. “When Republicans are fighting against the power of the state, we win,” Armey told the New York Times recently. “When we are trying to advance it, we lose.”

At the same time, President Obama has been unabashed in offering his views on religious questions. Two of the most important speeches of his first year – his addresses at the Notre Dame graduation in May and in Oslo this month when he received the Nobel Peace Prize – were suffused with the language of faith. At Notre Dame, the president lavishly praised the Catholic social justice tradition. In Oslo, he spoke as a Christian realist clearly conversant with the ideas of Reinhold Niebuhr, the great 20th-century theologian.

On President Bush’s faith-based initiative, Obama has made reforms but largely avoided or postponed dealing with the most controversial questions.

Even the cultural and religious conflicts that have persisted were debated at a lower volume. Going into the health-care skirmishes, both supporters and opponents of abortion rights pledged that they would not try to upset current arrangements that bar federal funding of abortion. Although they feuded bitterly over what this meant in practice, their opening positions reflected a pulling back from the brink.

The Senate compromise on abortion negotiated by Sens. Ben Nelson, Bob Casey and Barbara Boxer did not fully satisfy either camp in the abortion struggle, and there will be fallout in the new year. (“Imagine, we Democrats managed to make both sides on the abortion issue unhappy,” one House member said wryly but accurately.) Nonetheless, those who expected the abortion controversy to sink health-care reform have, so far, been proved wrong.

And while gay marriage continues to roil politics at the state and local levels, this argument has now become part of the routine of American politics. Republican politicians have shown a limited appetite for nationalizing the issue, something they did eagerly before the 2004 election. Judging by the closeness of some of the referendum votes – notably this year in Maine, where the measure lost narrowly – support for gay marriage has grown, although its backers are still short of a majority in most places.

In the meantime, religious progressives are mobilized to a degree not seen since the civil rights years. They weighed in regularly on health care, providing energy for the compromises on abortion that would otherwise have won little organized support.

Of course, it was inevitable that cultural and religious issues would at least partially recede during a sharp economic downturn. Such matters also declined in importance during the Great Depression of the 1930s, and none more so than the previous decade’s struggle over the prohibition of alcohol.

At the time, historian William E. Leuchtenburg reported, a Missouri Democrat told James Farley, one of Franklin Roosevelt’s top lieutenants, that it was “ridiculous for a jobless wet Democrat to wrangle with a jobless dry Democrat over liquor when neither could afford the price of a drink.”

The paradox for Obama is that if the economy continues its comeback in 2010, his overall standing will improve, but the risk of renewed conflict over religion and values will also rise. It’s a trade the president will happily take, even if he would then face a much tougher test of his credentials as a cultural peacemaker.