I have heard many explanations on why it essential to consider death as an illusion: it helps the person dying and the loved ones cope, it brings “meaning” into one’s life, and we can’t be really sure what happens after death.
Yet what does this mindset do other than that? Would we see terrorists willing to sacrifice their life or the lives of others if they knew that this was the only life they and others would have? Would we see people marching behind the trumpets of war willing to sacrifice their precious lives on political whims and would be willing to support someone who is willing to sacrifice precious lives with the understanding that death is indeed the end? Would people even be so frightened of death if the confusion of the afterlife sentiment was removed? Would people be willing to sacrifice their own life if this was the only life they were entitled to?
Death is not an illusion.
I strongly feel that life as we know it and can only know it would be much better off if it were considered a temporal gift rather than an immortal testing ground.
You certainly can have meaning in your life and value life itself without belief in an afterlife. I’m even willing to take that a step further and declare that life itself (our’s and others’) will gather even MORE value because it is indeed precious and not just a nuance in the way of our afterlife treasures.
When will we ever start taking life and death seriously as opposed to playing ancient and ignorant games with them both for egocentric fantasies that result in detrimental behavior?
I agree that death is not an illusion and very real but I reach a different conclusion then you do. If I were to go along with your line of reasoning it would be a huge misdeed to ever bring life into this world.
Why is life precious? Is life worth living if there is nothing worth dying for?
Why have children if they are going to die? We have children because we understand there are things worth dying for otherwise we should not be having children since death is an enevitable part of life.
Life is precisly worth so much because it is so special and there is something in the world more important then it. If there wasn’t then I think it is criminal to bring new life into this world. What say you?
So just because life has to come to a conclusion, then what happens in between the beginning and end is worthless? This is my entire point. It is not worthless and in fact becomes even more worthy of appreciation.
We are so caught up thinking that a life with an end is a life not worth living and I think this is the greatest disservice and manipulation bestowed upon humankind. Life, with a conceivable end, is even MORE precious. Bringing life into this world is not a “misdeed” because it may one day end. In fact, bringing life into this world would be one of the highest deeds because at least a part of us can carry on genetically and give the opportunity for life for others.
Again, life is precious because it is limited and temporal. Bringing life into this world is yet another treasure in itself although the treasure is only for a limited time. And nothing is worth dying for because life is so very precious in a limited perspective. But everything is worth living for because this is it. How can anyone throw away their only chance and is that reason to decline the opportunity for future lives? All because one cannot handle inevitable conclusions? I don’t see conclusions as the defining point of life as I do with life itself. It seems for many that this life just cannot be enough and it is a shame to see the resulting travesties it places upon life itself. It should not only be enough, it should be promoted and celebrated from the beginning to the end as opposed to being written off as merely a nuance easily sacrificed to appease ancient superstitious fiction.
So your life is only about your expriences? You value yourself above the ones you love? You wouldn’t die for the ones you love?
Is it worth to live and die if there is nothing worth dying for?
Is life so great? Would you have brought life into the world durring World War II? Would you bring life into the world if you lived in the west bank? Why? Perhaps because theres something bigger then you that is worth living and dying for?
Death is a part of life. If theres nothing worth dying for there isn’t anything worth living for.
Why do we play games? What’s the point if the game is just going to end anyways? Why do we bring other people to join us in our games, even if they might lose, or win and make us lose?
I knew that of everyting I posted, that what you quoted above would be the only thing that would be of any relevance to you. The rest of it has no bearing at all to you. Interesting.
I would hope that you would review everything within context and understand that if we have the mindset that death is not an illusion we don’t really need to justify reasons for dying. The emphasis should be on reasons for living.
So please, continue with all of the reasons you have to die. Not exactly sure what any of that has to do with my insistance that death is not an illusion and is a real conclusion. I’m pretty dam sure that when you die, for whatever reason, that will be your conclusion. Now pair that with someone that considers death to be an illusion. Who is going to be more willing to sacrifice their own life and the lives of others? Someone who considers death to be a mirage or someone who thinks it is pretty damn real?
Also, I couldn’t help to notice that you found meaning in such posts. Strange. Seems your insistance that for us to have meanings then conclusions cannot be functional. How could one possibly convey any meaning in a post if it merely has a beginning and an end. For meaning to occur, one would have to type forever and ever never hitting the submit button, right?
Maybe it is possible to draw meaning with a beginning and an end.
I do not think immortality - in contrast to the mere idea of immortality - diminishes life value. On contrary it gives the very reason, meaning and worth for life itself.
For without immortality there is no reason for life and living. We are then merely like the animals - we come into being, we grow up, toil, mate, and suffer diseases and sicknesses, and as humans beings, other countless pain, lost, disappointments, wrongs, injustices, distresses, heartaches and brokenness along the weary way, and then just die and be forgotten.
Yes of course there is the occassional happiness, merriment, delights and joys, but these are fewer in occurrence than we desire them, and for some, they never occur at all.
For example Solomon, who is accepted as wise, wrote this:
If that is meaning and precious enough for you I have no more argument with you.
But for me, I do not think so. In fact my spirit demand that it is not so. It cries out against life, and seek the true life that is indelibly etched in our hearts, as Solomon put it, “[God] has also set eternity in the hearts of men …”.
But Solomon did not know for certain the fact of immortality then. He had the ideas certainly, as in the quotation, but he did not know for sure.
And death is no illusion. Death is real; as real as life itself. And death is painful, unjust and ugly.
If there is no tomorrow, why then do you save and sacrifice present pleasures for the supposedly greater joys tomorrow? And given that you do not know whether you live or die tomorrow, why not then seek a hedonistic lifestyle, seeking maximal happiness every moment of this ephemeral life? For what else is of value and precious in this life then? Are your works, thoughts, children and people you have touched, the measure of the value of your life, after you die? Even if they are, there is nothing you can do if these are abused, forgotten and destroyed.
What are your justifications for saying life is valuable, and what is this value, if all of life is just being a mere biological animal?
What about mortality? Is the period between birth and death so meaningless to you that you could not accept that as being enough? I accept that I don’t have immortality and I find plenty of reason for life and living. Immortality is NOT a mandate for meaning in life as much as theists try to pass it off as being.
I find this disturbing. A mortal life itself which is the extent in which we witness should be plenty of reason for life and living.
This displays the point I am trying to establish. Life is completely thrown aside and death is merely an illusion to those who throw all of their chips on immortality. They simply take their mortality for granted even to the point that they consider their mortality completely worthless in favor of immortal ambition.
A simple conclusion to life has no bearing whatsoever on all of the glorius experiences that happen until the arrival of that conclusion. I find it very interesting that someone can claim that conclusions are so horrible that they void out everything. They shouldn’t. But unfortunately, not only do considering conclusions void out everything to some people, but people are willing to void out the mortal life itself to void out the inevitable conclusions.
If that is the case then I have no more argument with you. If that between birth and death is “plenty” enough reason for life and living, so be it.
Let me restate, categorically this time, that Death is no illusion. Its real. OK? And where am I saying that “life is completely thrown away”? It is for reason of life that you seek life, and are compelled to go beyond even death. It is for life that you seek “meaning” in all the meaninglessness in life. Only when such “meaning” is found is mortality worthy.
What you have not shown or argue is why is life worthy being merely mortal?
Well, in my opinion I have argued quite a bit regarding that very point and have shown why life in a temporal sense is worthy of being appreciated in itself and is quite enough.
However, and I state this again, a mortal life is precious because it does have that conclusion. That is what makes it “worthy.” Taking away that conclusion and calling it an “illusion” takes away the emphasis on the value of mortality.
It also simplifies the reasoning involved significantly. Just think about how much reasoning is necessary to justify immortality when compared with mortality with consciousness coming to an end? You have to jump through all kinds of hoops and still not even come close to obtaining a consensus on what immortality entails, but it doesn’t really take much at all to simply declare all of our roads inevitably lead to “The End.”
Enigma my friend you misunderstand me. I quoted that because that is the only place I dissagreed with you. Earlier I wrote that I fully agreed with what you said but reached a different conclusion. The conclusion you reach is And nothing is worth dying for because life is so very precious in a limited perspective. I do not reach this conclusion. Please re-read carefully what I said and try and argue this point. I agree with everything else.
Pope Lanky Wanky wrote:
Very nice analogy. Heres the thing though is life such a fun game? Is it a game you would wish to play in like baseball, if life like baseball was stupid and had no meaning.
See I was in the park just yesterday sitting and watching a game of baseball. I saw players play with emotion and spectators watch with emotion. But I was thinking how stupid the game really is. I had no emotion watching and I knew I would have no emotion had I played. I saw how meaningless and pointless the game was. I wasn’t always like this. As a child I liked playing baseball and I played with emotion but now as I look for deeper things in life I cannot find them in such trivial things as games.
Yes pope the game was meaningless and stupid and not just because it had an end. The game however doesn’t have to be meaningless and stupid if it has a purpose. If there is a purpose to risk injuring yourself to make an awesome catch then the game becomes very different.
Baseball like life comes down to there being a purpose for it.
If nothing in life is worth dying for how important can the purpose for life be? I reiterate, why bring children into the world that you know someday will die if there is nothing at all for which it is worth to die. It is a tragedy, you shouldn’t have kids if there isn’t anything worth dying for.
I do not say that life has no point because it ends. I merly ask what is worthy enough to end life for?
It is just interesting that as I was typing that sentence, I knew that you would respond only to it. Perhaps I just have familiarity with your opinion.
I don’t have a problem with someone disagreeing although I think you grabbed the quote out of context. I still think that with beliefs in an afterlife that people find way too many reasons way too easily to sacrifice their mortality and you started giving me all the excuses you have for sacrificing your mortality. It is just from my perspective that once people gather that there is no afterlife, then mortality itself (even the mortality of others) becomes of even more worth and the emphasis on sacrificing our mortality should not be in the forefront.
From what I gather from your perspective, it isn’t about what is worth LIVING FOR which in my opinion should be the point of emphasis and plenty of justification to bring more life into the world, but what is worth DYING FOR which again places the focus away from the mortal life itself. We shouldn’t have to seek out reasons to end our mortality and is the problem itself. We should be more concerned with extending our mortality and pushing it to the limit not just for ourselves, but for everyone. We have enough excuses to die and kill for, is it really important to strive for more? Perhaps if you examine the things that you are willing to die for, those items are based upon fear. Life shouldn’t be defined by our fears in my opinion.
How about we start looking for reasons to live for and make life, the mortal life we witness, worth it all?
Are there reasons to die (and kill) for? Perhaps, but I think it is done very hastily and such reasons should decline significantly when mortal life is considered the prize as opposed to the afterlife and the ambiguity it imposes upon death’s conclusion that threatens mortality itself. Let’s let this life be the prize rather than motives for death or post-death fantasy.
Now see I think you knew I would respond for a different reason. I think that when you wrote this you arn’t truly or fully convinced of this yourself. Be honest please, are you truly fully convinced theres nothing worth dying for?
Enigma wrote:
Again I agree, hear and understand you. Your point is good sacrificing our mortality should not be in the forefront., agreed! But see I am not concerned with most people and what and how they think. Save that for the social science forums. You obviously have the brains to see past what most people don’t even stop to consider as I hope I do too. I also understand the context you used the statement in but the statement is astronomical on its own!
Enigma wrote:
All I’m leading to, all I’m asking is what in your opinion is worth living for? Please tell me. Do you really think life is so great that its worth dying for, just the exprience of life? Isn’t that basicly what your saying because you know death is enevitable.
Enigma wrote:
I’m not looking for more, I haven’t even found mine yet. I’m simply asking that perhaps there is something worth dying for and if there is what is it. The idea that there is nothing worth dying for simply doesn’t fly with me because if there isn’t then I yell “Mom! Dad! Why did you have me, one day I’ll be gone for good (afterlife or not matters not, Judaism even teachs that nothing may replace this world) and I went through all this torment for what? If there is no reason for death then I say it is better to not have been born at all! Why must I go through all this agony, old age, death all around me and then me myself die. How dare you have me, take me into this world of shit and beauty and leave me to die for nothing. For afterall Enigma told me nothing is worth dying for.”
Enigma wrote:
You see my friend you don’t even fully dissagree with me. I’m glad. Just trying to keep you honest
All this torment for nothing? What do you want? A fuckin’ cookie? lol
I just don’t follow your logic at all. You seem to be implying that you deserve some “prize” at the end of your life that you entitle “something worth dying for”. And all the while you don’t make the effort to notice that maybe your life IS the “prize.” Why don’t you strive for something worth living for?
And not only that, you even admit that you haven’t found your something to die for. And then, you feel like your parents deserve scorn because of bringing you into this world because you need some kind of motive for death? Hate to tell you this, but death is going to come whether you like it or not and regardless of whatever reasons you have for it, it still doesn’t impact what happens up until then. If you want to be pissed at your parents because your life is defined as crap all because you need a reason for death, then that’s your fault and not your parents in my opinion.
Perhaps you should take this subject more personally.
In your own experience and priorities you have evaluated the belief in an afterlife and have decided that it has no benefit for you.
Now you suggest that a belief in an afterlife has no benefit for anyone. You suggest that removing that belief would lead others to more strongly value this life.
How can you determine what beliefs do or do not produce a benefit for another individual?
