This is a question that occurred to me a couple of months ago, while I was pondering issues philosophical. I know it’s a standard claim of atheists. We often will say that God, particularly the “Judeo-Christian” version, is not something we can readily believe in. I got to thinking about all the strange, inhuman beings I encounter regularly in my fantasy and science fiction reading, and I usually have little trouble suspending my critical disbelief in them. Sauron, Voldemort, even Leto II (from “God Emperor of Dune,” in case that name is less than familiar) are characters that I found I could accept while reading. YWHW, the God of Israel, isn’t. I can’t help wondering “Why?”
Part of it could be context.
I’ve always found it easier in fiction to accept really out-there concepts (FTL, Sauron, magical powers, ect) rather than things that are just to the left of present understanding or incorrect science. A case of the ‘Big Lie’ syndrome, I suppose.
But, within the controlled context of a novel or a created universe, absurd things aren’t unexpected and can be accepted as long as they stay within the context of that universe. If you read the Bible as a work of Fantasy, God is completely believable (though the voice in the book isn’t what most people would use for fiction nowadays).
It is when it crosses over that it becomes more difficult to accept. I mean, I was raised being told that I was descended from Hobbits. I could trace my lineage back to the Baggins family, actually. I applaud my parents for creating such a convincing narrative (and being huge Tolkein dorks – we went on what could be best described as a pilgrimage to see the original texts of the LoTR in Milwaukee) but I do think it is a demonstration of how the line between reality and fiction can be blurred.
The question I have is: am I a cryptic hellenised Christian? Between being raised on the LoTR mythos (a Christian story, undeniably) and greek mythology (“my little Astyanax”) . . . I guess I might just be.
Because god simply defies logic. Just, does things we know he can’t do.
HI Xunzian,
Wow, you have really been through something! I was fortunate to be at a school, and 13 years of age I think, when The Hobbit and LOTR became part of the school curriculum. We compared the Hobbits to people from south-west England and the Realm of Sauron to the highly industrialised and sooty Manchester – although we were only thirteen.
I think the problem with attempting to make God “believable†is that God has so many competitors for that status – whereas the original is more an “anti-god†and doesn’t fit into the “little boxes†we try to put him in. Mystics have always used terms like “no-thing†and “darkness†or “light†just because the metaphors of the Bible have been subject for centuries to being used by shams and imitations, which all devaluate the terminology that was originally very expressive.
Today, the common debate isn’t really constructive and the churches generally lack authenticity, so how can such things be changed?
Shalom
Yeah, God really needs to get his divine tailor to run him up some cool superhero suits. Then I’d accept him - I mean the whole beardy-toga-cloud bit is sooooo last eon.
I think the bible taps into something that has alreasy been built in you, your conscience. That’s what appears to deliniate it from fantasy, it’s moral superlative.
Also, God is spirit and it’s impossible, using the best logic available to tap into the spiritual. I think the spiritual, on the other hand can tap into us. For example the experience of being born of the spirit as discribed in the bible. The Holy Spirit reveal himself to those who seek the truth about spiritual matters, etc, etc.
The only real difference in atheism and theism is this fact. Some individuals have proof of the spirits presence and others don’t, thus the argument continues.
the key words are belief and faith. Knowledge and experience are logical to a hard core system we can readily grasp. We grasp material that our senses can share with others beyond any doubt.
But belief and faith are like snowflakes in our hands. One split second we see it, then the heat from our hand melts it and causes it to evaporate back into nothingness. The minute moisture from that snowflake will be absorbed quickly into our skin and evaporate into the air. Did we really see the snowflake was it there?
If our hand has no dampness then there is no proof. Only our eyes give us proof it existed but, we can’t transfer that factual knowledge to others except by the use of words. Humans are fallible we all know this, so words do not give automatic proof.
That is why Gods are so unbelievable to people. They are the snowflakes that may exist on our hand.
shrugs
I don’t see it as being that different from most religious upbringings, really. It has a nice mythopoetic edge to it, really. And the fictitious nature of it allowed it to simply faded with time, similar to belief in Santa Claus. No harm, no foul. But between the Greek myths and the LoTRs, I go a fair moral upbringing. Not necessarily standard, but effective. I will doubtless do the same thing to my children.
And there you nailed it my friend. Results are truly what count.
Xunzian,
A hobbit! I knew there was something about you, I just couldn’t put my finger on it. 
Your parents belong on a very high pedestal. They have wisdom way beyond traditional parenting…
saad,
Belief in God is quite easy if one has had a spiritual experience that takes you beyond explanation. What isn’t easy is finding a name for that experience that hasn’t been trashed by centuries of using the word “God” for every conceivable good and evil thing that has ever happened. As Bob suggests, the word “God” is in ill repute and the myriad metaphors don’t seem to help. Tab isn’t wrong either. If you say “God”, the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is the immediate image that pops into mind.
To be credible, a naming should be relatively understandable with as few contextual descriptions as possible. As our poetress suggests, “God” is as ephemeral as a snowflake.
Finally, there is no word that correlates to ‘all that is’. The very act of naming is to create an idol. What we have named isn’t God. God isn’t a humanized character in a novel, nor is he an action figure in a superhero outfit.(sorry Tab, no bananna)
With one difference. A snowflake is here today and gone tomorrow. Jesus offered the samaritian woman water that that would make her never thurst again. Jesus offers spiritual. eternal food and drink not just temporary things we see here in this world.
The snowflake did not really vanish it still is. If this food and water existed then it would still be here. It would be proof beyond any doubt. What is written in religious texts are words of faith and belief. They are not words of facts. Does that mean god does not exist, no it does not. It just makes gods unbelievable to those that need facts and evidence.
Wether a person believes or not that a god exists, that god will exist, wether there is belief or not. gods are creatures I am probably correct in assuming that they don’t need belief in order to exist.
The whole argument about wether God exists or does not exist is moot anyway. If you don’t believe because you can’t grasp the power of belief or faith, chances are pretty good that you will never believe in a god. If you do believe in a god why worry about trying to prove it? I would think that if a God wants others to believe, that god is fully capable of proving it.
You job is just supposed to try and convert not prove, if you are a believer.
I don’t think their are many people who are all out materialists. Almost everyone believes something else is out there, something spiritual. I do, and I’m still not sure I believe in God… perhaps I do believe in him I just don’t like him (the father) to well right now… But I do love Jesus and the spirit. So… I believe in God 66.6 percent… forsure… however that’s really imperfect and quite scary.
Xuzian was pretty close, it’s all about context. Nobody is telling you that the events in Dune actually happened so it is easy to “suspend your disbelief” and enjoy the story.
On the other hand there are milions of people telling you that you should believe the bible, and this is what grates.
On the point of “suspending disbelief”. In fiction you are only able to effectively suspend dibelief when the characters act rationally and consistantly within thier own created worlds. Someone reading the bible, purely allegorically, may be constantly wreslting with the contradictions in the character of “God”. Take the story of Soddam and Gomarrh.
God sends his angels to warn Lot that the town is about to be destoyed and he should be saved because he is the only “good” guy. Then the townsfolk demand to rape the angels, which the host won’t do, but offers up his daughters instead :-0. Some good guy!
Then when Lot is leaving God makes the spurious demand that they don’t look back at the destruction, Lot wife does of course, and get turned into apillar of salt for her trouble :-0
The point is this. If, within the context of the bible story God was a petulant psychopath then his actions would be consistant with what we would expect him to do. But of course he is supposed to be the a just and loving creator and that does match his actions, hence the problem with “supending disbelief”
PS
How about “reality” i.e. “The totality of all things possessing actuality, existence, or essence” (from yourDictionary) As for the “idol” stuff we could get into the religion vs science thing again 
kriswest,
What if someone tells you that Jesus isn’t dead and that you can know him, personally if you ask him into your life? How much faith would that take?
I can’t prove God to anyone so I don’t try. I just tell the truth about what I believe and know about God.
God is able to prove himself but he will never push himself on anyone. He leaves the choice with man. That’s how he set this whole thing up.
My job is to rest in the peace God has given me. I don’t seek to convert. I can’t; that’s Gods job. I just discuss beliefs with others who discuss their beliefs with me, unless they have a chip on their shoulder and are disingenuine.
I have no chip Ace, and no religious or anti religious beliefs. I am a religion of one. I don’t belive, I know what I know, I do have to have faith that I will wake up tomorrow.
Jesus was a fine and good man, his spirit yet lives within the good. I have had the honor of meeting a couple of people that truly have his spirit within.
The rest of the Christians I know or am related to, only have faith and belief. Jesus’s words may be followed to some degree by them but, his spirit is not within. Until one stops having faith and believing, one cannot have the spirit of Jesus within. You must know.
No I am not a follower of Jesus, God or or any religion christian or nonchristian.
I’m an athiest and i’m slowly getting sick of listening to the “revelation of the heart” bit… the whole “I’ve had a spiritual experience” song and dance… well who hasn’t?
I’ve had plenty of spiritual experiences… the main difference being that I don’t jump to conclusions about what on earth they signify… might very well be a psychological thing… or chemical process in the brain… my point being: who knows?! We are faulible beings… 100% certainty is out of our reach and all we have to go with (and that’s if we’re lucky) is logic and sense impressions to try and make sense of this strange world around us… twist, turn, scream and bang your head against your bible as you may NEITHER logic nor sense impressions will EVER indicate a “god” in any way shape or form as described by any “holy text”…
For all you “belivers” I suggest you stop donating your money to the church and spend it on therapy instead and get rid of that pesky delusion…
How do you know who has the Holy Spirit within? Only God can know that.
So faith and belief is conter productive to “knowing” Christ personally? I’ve neither read that nor experienced it.
You are able to determine good from evil though. How?
I’d like to understand the logic behind atheism. Can you help me with that?
For “weak” atheism it’s quite simple really.
- There is no verifiable proof that god exists
- Therefore there is no reason to believe god exists
replace “god” with “flying spaghetti monster”, “invisible pink unicorn” or “zeus” and test your non-belief in those entities as well (no matter what the pastafarians say )