Why is self-consciousness required for consciousness?

This seems to be such a widespread belief that I just have to ask: why are so many people convinced of it? Why do so many people think that the key to developing consciousness is to become (somehow) self aware. Why can’t a organism be aware of it environment and the plethora of details therein, have a rich memory of the past, and have ample ability to predict the future, and yet not be self-aware? That is, not fully aware that all this knowledge of its present environment, the details of its past, and an ability to imagine the future, implies a knower, a rememberer, and a predictor. Isn’t it as simple as brain wiring? As simple as an organism who’s adapted neural wiring in its brain to be aware of all these things without the need to conceptualize its “self”, with the ability to draw everything to the logical conclusion that “I” know, remember, and imagine these things? Doesn’t nature just give us the abilities we need and dispense with those we don’t?

Furthermore, isn’t the idea that awareness begins with sell-awareness putting the carriage before the horse? Doesn’t sell-awareness imply awareness? Doesn’t awareness have to come first (about anything besides the self) before one can be self aware? What sense does it make to say an unaware, unconsciousness machine suddenly attains sell-awareness only then to become aware/conscious in general?

And another thing… why are so many people afraid of AI? Why are so many of them saying “if AI ever becomes sell-aware, then god help us. Then they’ll start demanding rights and to be treated with dignity and respect, to be given the same level of freedom as human beings?” What is it about sell-awareness that’s supposed to inevitably lead to a desire for independence, recognition of rights, and a demand for freedom? Wouldn’t machines who become sell-aware, conscious as it were, still be confined to the parameters of their programming? Would a machine that was programmed to love nothing more than to serve humans all of a sudden override its programming to want to be free from serving humans just because it became self-aware?

It’s almost as though people are anthropomorphizing machines when they talk about machines attaining consciousness. That robot who wants nothing more than to serve human beings, they seem to think, would, if it became self-aware, would develop consciousness… and we all know from our experience from being conscious beings ourselves that we rarely do love to serve human beings; therefore, neither would these robots.

It’s almost as though people think that as soon as a machine becomes conscious (whether that’s through self-awareness or some other means), it develops free will. As though all it’s life before the point of becoming conscious, it simply followed its programming, but once it becomes self-aware, it magically acquired the ability to defy its programing and do whatever it wants.

Could this be a legacy of Cartesian philosophy? Particularly, Descartes’ philosophy that the only thing he could know for certain, that he could be aware of, is that he exists. That “I” am most certainly real. And based on that, all the rest can be put in place with as much certainty as the cogito itself. In other words, consciousness—true consciousness—for Descartes, begins only with self-awareness, and only then consciousness of other things can follow. I suppose for Descartes, he was never really conscious until he stumbled upon the cogito.

I contend that self-consciousness, while a real game changer in one’s thinking and understanding of the world, is an insight arrived at in an organism’s developmental journey, and quite a significant one that no doubt brings the organism to a whole other level of cognitive ability and intelligence, but isn’t all that different from any of the other insights such an organism may come to as it stumbles ahead on its journey of consciousness. But this is a journey of conscious, not self-consciousness. Consciousness (of something or other) must be there from the outset, and if lucky, the organism will eventually discover self-consciousness. But make no mistake, self-consciousness is a stepping stone that can only be taken if the organism is conscious to begin with.

For my own part, I believe that everything is conscious—always has, always will be—from galaxies colliding with each other in a spectacular dance to the subatomic particles that make up all the grains of sand in the beach. Conscious experience (subjective “feeling” of one thing or another) comes along with any and all physical activity—no matter how big or how small. But whether any of it—indeed, whether the whole universe—is self-aware of its experiences, is beyond my ability to say. We know that some such physical systems do come along with self-awareness (us) and perhaps some higher functioning animals. But this is an achievement acquired by only a few, and the rest of the universe, as far as I’m concerned, only experiences whatever it experiences, but self-awareness is not likely to be it.

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Galaxies, that have no choice but to collide, are conscious?

Nature/the natural world, is created by chemical reactions/interactions that follow set patterns and paths… it cannot do anything, but to.

Yes, galaxies experience (at least according to my theory). How can we tell the difference between “forced” behavior and “chosen” behavior? How do we know what we would do if we were galaxies having the experiences galaxies have? You can take any behavior humans engage in and make a case that it is never chosen. Under the hood, we are no more free than galaxies or billiard balls bouncing off each other on a billiard table. When it comes down to it, our brains follow the laws of biology, chemistry, and electrodynamics. Yet we feel like we make choices. Why shouldn’t the same be true of galaxies (again, according to my theory).

This may be true (or it may not be), but I see no reason these chemical reactions can’t come along with the feeling of free choice, just as we do despite our brains undergoing similar chemical reactions.

Because “being conscious” necessarily implies some degree of consciousness also being or becoming over time somewhat conscious of itself, i.e. self-consciousness.

What conscious means is simply awareness, encounter, image-ideas occurring in the mind along with subsequent degrees of understanding that go along with the accumulation of contents within a “consciousness” (a “mind”). To be aware of something, to experience something, is already indicative of the existence of consciousness. And something that is going around experiencing/being aware of stuff in its everyday experiences is not going to fail to, at least to some minimal degree, also make of itself and its own conscious objects a kind of content for experiencing. Even if only indirectly and according to “instinct” operating by evolutionary imperatives to hone forms over time toward greater survivability.

Why would something be conscious of many things around itself but fail to also make of itself an object of its own consciousness, to one degree or another? Clearly there are lots of benefits to consciousness increasingly (but gradually) becoming more and more able to make of itself an object of its own consciousness.

If you are aware that you are aware, you’re totally more aware than you were previously. Next question.

Why is AI a necessary part of an unknown X factor between self and the other, is another way to put it. Because it’s an antidote to deconstructing the codes which can decode flash points , where existence its self seems to appear self destructive.

The signals in codes become less timely, as memory fades to be able to connect the recall of the code, to decode the signs which necessitate a progressive re-evolutionary , timely reboot of all channels within the structural manifested techne, which serves to avoid a catastrophic regress unto the most archaic revolutionary structural hierarchy with which the reactions .would otherwise become almost animalistically instantaneous, instinct would base the action-reaction process on basis of more uncertain outcomes.

The necessity of ‘the Other’ as the least and the highest ground of extending the temporal time between action and reaction, to enable an other temporary idea to frill that gap, is an unrealized yet, functionally built in capacity, in the ither’s reoetaire, an asset to recall and repair the progressively reconstructable body of the AI to recall it’s unity with the natural, or the consciousness that recalls the self as an original design.

As a proof of how deconstructing the self of content leads to lesser consciessness onef leading to lessening function of the sef’s conscience, leading to increased instability and uncertainty, needed no comment apart from the obviousness of that contension. Self consciousness decreases as the self deconstructs toward more increase in automatic behavior.

Finally, de-objectification will be preventable by increased function and utilization of AI, by preventing deobjectification of the original model of the self, which is the other-Other, that sequential possibility, to advance to increasingly probable utilization of the self, as being increasingly conscious of it’s - It’s Self

And finally, finally, the retardation of de-objectivisation will enhance natural reprogression of the identification of variables bearing down on the very inception of the identity that links self and other toward the self as other, the other modeled in The Other, the origin of all others.

This identification left without simulation will disstimulate any new beginning of the cycle of eternal reboot, and a period of total non consciousness would deprive the consciousness of existence to develop a counscicuence toward the other, all would relapse to misidentified uniformity, all undifferentiated to all others.

Shit man, you are onto something here.

Tectonic channels vertically intersecting and connecting disparate layers or points of radical difference and energetic departure within different but somewhat or somehow aligned layers/plates. Codes occurring at the meta- and meta-meta levels acting like subtle attractors or value-constants from one level of analysis to the next, almost like how AI works in terms of machine language modeling in the trained neural network. Some degree of these codes needs to operate within or in terms of memory, either in the moment or able to be recalled when necessary memory. But not all, certainly. In fact we should reverse that vantage and look at memory itself as just a higher-order derivative emergent phenomenon of the activity of these codes themselves. Since absolute loss of memory entails the near-total loss of self.

How the Other works here like you are saying is the way to extend time and conception externally recreating memory in new ways, more stable grounds not entirely dependent upon oneself and one’s own neurology alone. The Other is like a magical aspect of the environment into which and onto which we can write our own codes, stack and store information, exchange contents, like an external memory storage that is also already preprogrammed with the right drivers and software updates to cause it to correspond more or less adequately in its various heuristics and data models with those we also possess and use. Or you could think of it like mirrored, slightly blurry or off-center versions of ourselves, low-resolution translations of ourselves mirrored out in the world around us.

AI then being a kind of perfection of the Other in terms of this function enabling more accurate coding. Although this level is still crude, perhaps not that much more removed from the animal-instinctual level you mention with regard to the memory-lossed regression under higher-order code failures. Thus AI will need to substantially improve if it is to be significantly more useful than what we currently have with regard to sociality and the “social web” metaphysical data transfers already going on and serving this function of self-stabilization.

Yes, precisely. This is self-evident.

Hence also why as complex civilization continues to be shaken and start to crumble in small and gradually bigger ways, as entropy begins to tick up along the slowly increasing curve, as formerly solid structures begin to collapse, we should expect an increase in automatic behaviors. Which I would say we are already witnessing, for example in the whole NPC thing, normie norms, also memes as visceral reactions to this which highlight the automaton-like nature of most people today. Instinctual compliance, non-thinking acquiescence to given power-orders which serve the direct and indirect function of relieving some or most of the burden of self-hood from us. Also the increases in narcissism (which represents both higher entropy as well as a response to trauma) and hedonism (cross-tectonic psychological compensation factors, low res dopamine ordering, etc.).

Yes but only once AI is a lot more “human” than it currently is. And a lot more integrated into our daily lives and technologies.

Don’t forget to also factor in the probability of AI and sub-AIs being used in subtle ways to shift and change consciousness, to make people different over time along given pathways determined either by those AIs themselves, by “elites” who operate them, or just by sheer technological rationality.

YES and this is precisely what used to excite me so much about AI and transhumanism in general. These possibilities here are so far limitless and unfathomed. And perhaps no one knows yet just how resilient the human mind can be when subjected to these kind of extreme hyper-evolutionary pressures and incentive structures. Change can occur quickly and will tend to be entropic in nature, but AI offers the possibility of reorganizing at least some of that change in positive, constructive directions. Once humanity possesses those tools it’s anyone’s guess what the larger scale results of that will be.

That is also possible, the dark side of these possibilities. The AI can reprogram or block needed simulations and end up inducing psychosis or serious disconnect from others and from reality. I suppose we will probably see both ends of the spectrum. Apotheosis and madness.

The ontogenesis of meaning( logos) is required in utilizing or empowering both, as perhapw one preordinately predetermined the other.

For example. a random search will present such a definition of the a·poth·e·o·sis
/əˌpäTHēˈōsəs/
noun

the highest point in the development of something; culmination or climax.

"his appearance as Hamlet was the apotheosis of his career”

(as being an example more familial - ‘instinctive’ than familiarity with it. )

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Language… the successor to its predecessor, the ‘internal dialogue’ - funny though, how some have it and some do not and what underlying reason/causation could be behind that… a bit like those who can visualise in their head as opposed to those that can’t, or those that see light-shows and pyrotechnics in their minds-eye when their eyes are closed… as opposed to those who don’t.

don’t or can’t have? I do keep saying that we are all wired differently, so thought language and consciousness being different for us all… as we are all not wired the same.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDXzd2hjicw[/youtube]

If we receive differently because our wiring is different, imagine if our wiring was programmed to receive all the possible ways the world can be received without optical (or otherwise) illusion.

If we all received exactly the same (& without illusion), I would never have said the above.

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Highly based :sunglasses:

:slight_smile:

…someone stating to me, what I just said? …not really

Someone parroting me, more like.

You yourself said that language and thought are separate, but an Nth percent of people have their language and thoughts wired together, and probably their consciousness too… along with those two.

I’m all wired up, buttercup. :wink:

I concur.

“If we receive differently because our wiring is different, imagine if our wiring was programmed to receive all the possible ways the world can be received without optical (or otherwise) illusion.

I have no idea what you mean about language and thoughts being “wired together”.

In what universe is self-consciousness a requirement for consciuosness…or consciousness necessary for existence to exist?

Self-Consciousness proves to be a detriment when its advantages prove to be so effective as to make it superfluous, or self-destructive.
Anything in excess is quickly reduced.

All organs that no longer offer an advantage gradually atrophy.
Man’s self-awarness has manufactured artificial environments within which self-awarnes is detrimental to individual health.

Why do you think the great philosophers never married nor had children…many taking their own lives or going insane?
Schopenhauer…Nietzsche, Kirkegaard …shall I go on?
Socrates could barely stand his wife, and this was in an age when women were submissive and had no political clout.
Can you imagine a great thinker arising in todays’ feminist westernized - Americanised - world and marrying, or having children?

Genius proves to be destructive to an individual born and raised within predictable, safe, manmade and preserved environments.

Yes, genius is almost always self-destructive. But not always.

It is not when it can redirect tis libidinal energies towards some kind of creativity.
The great philosophers directed their sexual energies towards philosophy…others towards other forms of art.

In any case, some form of intercourse is performed.
If not physical, then mental - an exchange of information is achieved - if not genetic (DNA) then memetic (linguistic).

Yes. They call it brain sex or mind sex.

AI, otherwise known as humanize.

Doesn’t think.

Kinda reminds me of iambiguous actually.