A friend respects the autonomy of a friend.
The same cannot be said about a girlfriend and a boyfriend.
What game are you playing…? If it’s chess, my wife would never win. She usually loses at fighting too, and beard-growing.
On a more serious note, why are you making massive context-free generalisations ex-pezer…?
Relatioships are nothing but a struggle to control the partner that one is with.
And then I stopped caring.
So why does she win? She doesn’t respect autonomy? If this has an effect, then the boyfriend did not have or really, deep down want, autonomy. IOW he finds that he also doesn’t want the girlfriend to do or not do certain things. Otherwise she could not ‘win’. She can only have an effect if she stops doing what he wants her to do in response to him not doing what she wants him to do. And in this way he finds out he did not want her truly free - whatever that is - either.
That’s not surprising. Assuming that the boyfriend does not already have AIDS, the girlfriend is far less likely to acquire AIDS from one of her friends sleeping around.
Hey, what’s you people’s problem with generalizations? They are good starting points for conversations: like an “establishing shot” in a scene for a movie.
My point is that “bros before hoes” goes out the window as soon as a man decides that he will build his life around a woman, and that women are completely ruthless in their manipulation of this situation.
I have saddly lost one brother and one friend, the first a friend and the second like a brother, to demanding girlfriends. In many cases, the friend/brother will have similar arsenal as the girlfriend to manipulate, but they tend to be more respectful of the bro’s right to do whatever the fuck he wants (*as long as it doesn’t fuck my shit up, etc).
“Dude let’s go smoke a joint!”
“Baby! yousaidyouwouldtakemetoarestaurantafteryouwentwithmetomyfriendsshowcauseshe’sbeendepressedlatelyandyouhaventdoneenoughtohelpherbecause…”
Friend 0, Girlfriend 1
Is this not grounds for a sociological study of man’s relative autonomy?
I don’t understand–is this a relationship or some kind of war?
Precisely, and an establishing shot of the entire galaxy that then fades into a tight-in shot of some back street bar in a town you’ve never heard of is crap editing.
Perhaps you should stop thinking of women as hoes, then you might be able to develop a more mutually respectful relationship with one.
SIATD, you and other moraline filmmakers like you are a thing of the past.
Clearly not, since I exist in the present.
This is too easy. The standard of argument here is now what it was.
I have to disagree, that is actually a brilliant opening. I’ll try to capture this discussion in further filmic terms, based on your beginning.
EXT. THE GALAXY - NIGHT NOR DAY
The galaxy revolves. An isolated star passes through the frame.
CUT TO:
EXT. A BACK STREET - NIGHT
A bar emits hillbilly music. A man without shoes walks through the soggy mud that goes for “road” in this part of the world. He enters the bar.
INT. BAR - CONTINUOUS.
The bartender, offensive looking, prepares to ignore the barefoot man.
MAN
Who do I have to shit on to get a drink around here?
There is no answer.
MAN (CONT’D)
Well then I’ll just shit on the floor, right here.
The man drops his pants and shits. The bartender doesn’t notice until it’s too late.
I don’t know what happens next. This was the visual representation of the argument so far.
I didn’t complain about generalizations. I don’t think it makes sense. See my post above.
Notice your own wording. He is specifically aiming for something that is different from some pure autonomy.
They are making choices. PUtting the blame on the woman is as if these guys have no power. They want things, they want her to give up some of her autonomy. They are setting up a different kind of relationship. I can understand how frustrating this is, I’ve lost friends this way also, but you have to keep the responsibility where it is: in those male friends of yours.
Sure autonomy is changed by certain kinds of contracts, committments, shared expectations, obsessions, interests. If your friends fell in love with surfing, you might see them even less.
I am appalled at the lack of scientific rigor.
Moreno! Your goddamn high horse is spitting all over me.
So it’s a self fulfilling prophesy… Only on paper. It’s not a conscious decision, few people that don’t get married are thinking those words, they are just thinking “I like this chick, I will ask hew to be my girlfriend, which I’m pretty sure just means you don’t have sex with anybody else and you get constant sex.”
And what in the fuck do you think, that I am going over there and throwing eggs at heir fucking houses?
Why don’t you put your thinking cap on and take off that sanctimonious clown hat? You were supposed to giggle at the comment about losing a friend and a brother, not decide to launch into some fucking old person crusade.
Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiSfRzaDIWw[/youtube]
Me too. Practically my point. Use this rigor you see lacking and show me where I am wrong.
I use the spitoon first before I post.
No. That is not my point. These guys want things. They want things from these women. They have demands. They don’t want these women to have full autonomy. Different ideas of autonomy get affected, sure, but both sides are looking to have fulfilled expectations from the other one. Or why wouldn’t these guys react….yeah, well, bitch, sorry I’m going out with the guys. The reason they tend not to say this is because they know they can’t deal with the autonomy the woman would have if they did this.
No, come on. Most guys want the women to listen with interest to boring stuff and this also goes for the women. They want to be able to have someone who supports them, listens to their complaints, is wowed by them and not just in bed, they want that softness and non-competitive ease they feel around a woman which they do not feel wholly around men. They want access to a beautiful face and body that while they are looking at it and touching it, again not just in but certainly also in, sex, because that feels damn good, it makes them feel like they are special and great. And that’s just the fairly healthy desires men have around women. They want arm candy. They want to have a hot possession. They want their woman to give them status. All these things require time with the woman, efforts on her part to dress right, have good hair and face on, etc.
Men have a lot of expectations of women reducing their autonomy for them - of course, women tend to just do many of these things, so the men may not notice how they, personally, have these expectations.
Men are not being manipulated simply because they are morons or unconscious around manipulative women. They are compromising because they want women to compromise and most women are doing this in advance and not just in the early period where the men dress up and act interested and supportive.
Well, no, I hadn’t thought that.
Nice one. Solid knife thrust, seriously.
You see me as simply pissing on you here. But you know what, your belief is damaging you. You are not noticing what is really happening there with your friends. You’re in some virtual reality. I could pretent it made sense or take it like it was simply a joke. I think my reaction showed much more respect. But I’ll consider more flip reactions in the future.
Moreno, you should become a social worker or something and stop pestering us with this crap. Gimme some philosophy will ya? I know you can do that without dragging a Jesus complex into it.
Like this! Finally, some thoughtful analysis.
LOL Your insults are spot on. You should insult more. Seriously. Talk about provocative therapy. I’ll put you on retainer.
Well, my first post was that…
I’m glad you think so, but that was a slightly more specific version of my first post.
Your first post wasn’t really that bad, it was just extremely ambiguos. I answered the parts of it that were concretely related to the OP.
Anyway, so you sustain that when a guy gets into what we know as a “boyfriend/girlfiend” relationship with a girl, he is expressing a similar conscious interest in partial relinquishing of his former autonomy as that expressed by a guy who gets into a “wife/husband” reslationship?
similar, though generally different in degree, yes. And wife husband with kids, generally gets things even less autonomous. I am not really saying he is interested in reliquishing autonomy, hence the bitching that often goes with relationships. But he is willing. It’s a barter situation. If it wasn’t worth it for him, he would leave
or
he has a problem.
Men do tend to be conscious of autonomy and women tend to be more conscious of relating, but I think both demand both and get upset when either is missing. I think because women focus on interdependence or relationship, they will be pulling on the man. But if she takes away, even for a second in many cases, what the man expects in the relationship, he either gets mad or ‘come on baby, what’s wrong, come here…’ Men can take a lot of stuff in via osmosis, they don’t even realize they are being related to, but it does feel good and they miss it the moment she pulls back.
But in the original situation…friend is not longer relating to you cause his needy girlfriend demands stuff. You will not solve the problem thinking about what a manipulative bitch she is. If there is any swingroom for him to have the relationship and be more of a friend to you, he is the focus.
Oh, shit, I am heading up social worker street again.
But see, to me this is a philosophical issue. I am saying, the responsibility is here, not there. And also this is the point that has flexibility, especially for you. Unless the woman is your sister, why the fuck she gonna listen to you. Your friend might wake up and realize he wants more room and is willing to fight for it.
Unless we are really saying men are less free than other people, that being women.