Question: Christ said to Pilate, authority has been given you from above, that is why the one who handed me over is guilty of the greater sin. How does this fit in with your teaching? Can we avoid the sin of mis-judgement?
="my real name;
You must realize that the whole world is the kingdom of God as stated by Jesus. Any injustice will be punished by Him and you need not worry about it. Your view of the punishment is revenge but His view of punishment is to transform the soul. If somebody has stolen your money, don’t pray to God to punish that person. Everything is recorded by Him unlike the courts which register the case only when a complaint is given.
The enquiry by God takes place immediately. Sometimes you find no punishment from God and you are scolding God. The silence of God means that the enquiry was completed and the judgment was “no punishmentâ€. In the previous birth, you might have stolen money from that person and today you paid along with the compound interest. In this case there cannot be punishment and the enquiry was over. Since you do not know this, you mistake God for His silence.
Suppose such background is not there, then you will get your money with interest in some other way which is compensated by God. That person will lose the money along with the interest. You will see it with your eyes. But suppose you cursed that person with revenge, you will receive the punishment in addition to the above. Kauravas stole a share of wealth of Pandavas and finally they lost their whole kingdom. Pandavas gained the total kingdom which is double the share. But Draupadi was cursing Kauravas aspiring always for the revenge.
She was also punished for this as she lost all her children. Therefore, we should not scold even our enemy even by words or mind. God takes care of the entire case. If the injustice wins, it is a black mark for His administration only. He is well aware of it and will take the necessary action. He is more serious in your case than yourself. Unlike the court, He does not require registration of case or witness or advocate. When Hiranyakashipu tortured Prahlada, Prahalada kept silent and did not curse him in any way.
The Lord took very serious action in that case. Thus you have to keep God at every step as the basis in the worldly life also (Pravrutti). Jesus told that unless you excuse others, you cannot be excused by God. Your enemy will be punished if he does not excuse others. Such behaviour which indicates the full faith on God at every step of the life is divine Dharma in Pravrutti or Nivrtutti.
Amazing. Besides our disparate religions, these are the very words I hope to be true. But then there is the difference between “punishment” and “revenge” that you do not seem to make: I think it might be a difference between going to a higher authority and showing cause, or doing it oneself – what do you think? (You proabably say the difference is between causing harm or transforming the person’s soul – I know a lot of people who could use their souls transformed. 
) But i’m hopeful that there is someone at the top who is all-knowing and partial only for the good.
Lord Datta (God) is essentially a teacher. His very nature is the nature of a teacher. If you study the nature of teacher, you have understood the very nature of Datta. The aim of mother, father and teacher is only the welfare of the child. But, mother and father may become lenient due to their blind intensive love on the child. But, the love of a teacher (Guru) is never blind and is always aimed at the welfare of student. The love of father and mother may sometimes spoil the welfare of the child. Therefore, Datta treats all the living beings in the creation as His students and not as His issues. Therefore, the teacher is more than father and mother.
The Lord created fruits for both good and bad actions. Why should He create a fruit for an action? Let there be acts without fruits. The child does mischief, but the mother or father does not punish. In that case, there is no fruit for that action. Similarly, let the Lord not punish our sins. If you expect like this, the answer is that the Lord does not behave like father or mother but behaves only as a teacher. The child gets spoiled if the mischief is tolerated. We are seeing this in the world. The teacher will never tolerate the spoiling of the child and therefore, He will not tolerate the mischief.
God uses the fruits of your sins as punishments and the only aim is your welfare. This is the reason why Datta is always called as Guru Datta. Therefore, guru or teacher is greatest. The results of bad deeds are used as punishments to transform and uplift the student. Therefore, the result of a bad deed is very very useful for the transformation of the soul. The results of your good deeds are given to you just as a relaxation between two punishments. When He punishes systematically, He is called as Yama. In the interval when you receive happiness, He is Indra. Sometimes He gives severe punishments with roaring sound. He is called as Kala Bhairava at that time. The hell is the special equipment for punishment. The aim of the punishment is only the real welfare.
The earth, hell and heaven come under the plane of materialism (Pravrutti) only. The punishment on the earth and the punishment in the hell differ just by the areas present in the same realm of Pravrutti. It is just the difference between a jail in India and a jail in Andaman Islands in the olden days. Therefore, the postponed sin along with the interest can be met with punishment in the hell or in the next birth. It is one and the same. The serious deeds good or bad will yield results in this birth it self (Atyutkataih Papa Punyaiah Ihaiva Phalamashnute…).
The place and time have no significance. Only the quality and quantity of the nature (good or bad) of a deed and its subsequent fruit destined by the constitution of God are important. As the postponement increases, the interest also increases. You will receive the principle along with the interest in any online branch of the divine bank existing on this earth or in the upper world. Actually the deeds are inert actions and do not follow the soul. Only the essence of the deed which is alive in the form of quality (Guna or Samskara) follows the soul and from the color and intensity of the quality, results are decided by the divine computer called Yama for bad deeds and Indra for good deeds.
Kalabhairava is the over all in-charge of super vision in implementing the results (Karanam Guna Samgosya…Gita). Sattvam is white, Rajas is red and Tamas is black. Therefore, the internal intention (Sankalpa) of the mind which is made of these three qualities decides good and bad of a deed and not the inert subsequent action. The cycle of deeds and its administration is simplified based on the specific quality and its quantity. This is the simplified picture of the system of deeds, which is followed by the judge in the final enquiry. Of course, the total network of deeds with all the minute details also exists inside the system, which can be referred if necessary (Gahana Karmanogatih…).
Cycle of Deeds
The human being is entangled in the cycle of deeds called as karma chakra. The thought in the mind is the seed, which grows and generates action. The action certainly gives its result. Even if you escape the result of your action in this world you cannot escape from it in the upper world. In fact the result in the upper world is very severe due to the compounded interest due to the delay in getting the result. Therefore blessed are those who are punished in this world itself. Jesus says “It is better to punish yourself for your sin in this world itself than to fall into eternal hellâ€.
The punishment reduces the thought (which caused the deed) to the state of a tiny seedling. However the punishment cannot destroy the thought completely. The thought exists in a very minute called the state of subconsciousness. Even you are not aware of your subconscious thought. When the soul comes from hell to the earth and enters a new human body, the child contains all the qualities or thoughts of previous births, hidden in the subconscious state. Therefore the child is unaware of anything and appears to be the most innocent and sacred. In the child the thoughts are like seeds that have not germinated. Whatever may be the external atmosphere in which the child grows; those strong thoughts will certainly germinate and grow up to be tender plants if not strong trees. But if the external atmosphere is favorable, the strong thoughts become trees, and weak thoughts will become plants. These germinated thoughts will result in corresponding actions. The actions will give their own fruits whether here or there.
The fruits are the punishments, which will again reduce the thoughts to seeds. This is the cycle of the deeds. When it is said that you are enjoying the fruit of the action of your previous birth, it has to be understood in the context of this cycle. The action of your previous birth was punished in hell and has reduced your thought to the form of a seed. In this birth the seed grows and results in its corresponding action. Such action can give you its result in this world if you are captured here itself. The judicial system in this world also functions under the direction of the Lord only. If you have escaped the judicial system in this world, it too is by the will of Lord alone. The Lord might have judged your case and might have given you a chance of transformation. Sometimes you are punished wrongly in a case. Do not abuse the court or God. Perhaps you are punished for some other sin. Do not think that you have escaped a punishment that you deserve just because the court finds you ‘not guilty’. Perhaps God is directing you for a severe punishment in hell, which cannot be provided by the court here. Therefore do not think that you have fooled the court or that the deity of justice is blind with a cloth tied on her eyes. Even this court is functioning according to the will of the Lord because the Lord governs everybody and everything in this world. Therefore do not blame God or do not say that God does not exist if some criminal escapes punishment of human courts.
Destroying the Seed
Now the main point is how to escape from this cycle? You cannot escape from this cycle by preventing the deed or punishment. If you are tied with a rope, you will not do the deed as long as you are tied. You will do the deed as soon as you are released from the rope. You may escape the result of your deed here by someone’s recommendations, but you cannot escape from it in hell. The only way to stop this cycle is to destroy the thought which is the initiating seed of this cycle. How to destroy it?
The seed is a thought which is a living property (sentient property) or a property of life. If it were an inert property like light or heat, it could be prevented by physical methods. Only knowledge, which is another living property, can destroy this thought. Only a diamond can cut another diamond. The wrong knowledge, which generates this sin, is dangerous. Ignorance, which is zero, is better than wrong knowledge, which is minus (negative). Therefore only righteous knowledge can destroy wrong thoughts.
You can differentiate the right knowledge from the wrong knowledge through careful, patient analysis and discrimination. The knowledge of God alone can create devotion in your mind and develop it. Thus by knowledge alone can you get rid of this cycle and attain and please God. Shankara says “Jnanat eva tu kaivalyamâ€, which means that knowledge alone can give salvation. Jesus preached the same spiritual knowledge throughout His life.
Yeah well, I just fear at the ultimate judgement on those who “need their souls transformed” but hold power now over others and make them suffer.
If the judge be just there is nothing to fear but measured dharma; but I don’t think that is what you are preaching.
Some people say that even good people are unnecessarily harmed. They criticize God. You cannot decide any person as a good person. Did you observe him every minute from his birth? You also think yourself as a good person. Are you aware of your sins done in your childhood? You might have harmed an innocent insect in your childhood. Do you remember that? Even mental feelings are sins, which may not be expressed in words and actions. The feelings of the mind are the source of words and actions.
Therefore the feeling may not hurt others today. But tomorrow it will hurt others which will come out in words and actions. Infact, intention is given more importance in the crime according to law. The judge gives more importance to the intention in giving the punishment. You are walking on the road and the ant is killed by your foot, without any intention. There is no punishment for such sins. But when you kill the same ant with intention, you are punished by God.
Therefore mind is the source of action. If somebody harmed really a good person, then also leave it to God. You should not revenge. Why? The reason is that you cannot judge the exact nature and line of the case. You do not remember your own sins. Sometimes you do the sin thinking that it is good. You cannot be the standard in judging your own sins. Only the Lord can decide.
Therefore, if somebody harmed really a good person, in the view of the Lord also, then the Lord himself will punish him. You cannot take the law and order into your hand. You have to refer the case to the court. Let the Judge decide and punish the criminal. Therefore the Lord said, “Revenge is Mineâ€. If the revenge is justified, the Lord will certainly punish. The Lord will not revenge if you pray Him to do so. The Lord, will not excuse even if you recommend the unjust case.
my real name;
You neither have the power to punish nor to excuse anybody. The reason for this is that you are not omniscient. If a sinner realizes the sin and repents, the punishment is reduced. After repentance if you do not repeat the sins, the punishment is cancelled. If the sinner does not repent, he will repeat the sin again and again. Such sinner can be controlled only by punishment. If this is not true the police department has no use.
There are some sinners who can be controlled only by third degree treatment. If such punishment and revenge are not required and if everybody can be transformed by preaching, then what is the necessity of the existence of ‘Hell and Liquid Fire?’ If such possibility of transformation by love and knowledge is there, then why the Lord mentioned the word ‘revenge’ at all? Therefore this means that there are some sinners who cannot be transformed by love and knowledge. Some clever people criticize Lord Rama and Lord Krishna, who have resorted to punish the sinners.
Such clever people should answer about the word ‘revenge’ uttered by the Lord and also should explain the mention of the liquid fire in the scriptures. If all the human beings can be transformed through love and knowledge such words should not have been mentioned in their scriptures.
Let let me begin by saying that I do believe in God (or some higher being). I’m going to follow that up by saying that I don’t think He has a great plan for the Universe; no Karma, divine justice, or whatever else. He’s seeing what becomes of things. Since it says in the Bible that we are created in the image of God (and it seems to me that you’re using holy texts extensively, forgive me if I’m wrong), we do have the power to pardon and deal justice…but only on a personal level, ie, in a way that only affects you and the other person. You can’t speak for someone else in any way.
Well, I had a logical argument, but I thought instead that it wasn’t true to what I believe.
Here is what I believe:
God won’t protect people from getting hurt. Neither will He condemn those who hurt them, at least not in this life. Thus it is up to us on Earth to deal justice as we see fit.
And about the hell and liquid fire–there are differences in the Christians Bible when you go from the Old to the New Testament. Specifically, God goes from a God of Judgement to a God of Love, who preached love and forgiveness for all. This unconditional love is one reason why I don’t really believe that there is a threat of going to Hell. Though there are actions that certainly deserve punishment, I don’t think it’s possible to commit enough atrocities in one lifetime to warrant an eternity of punishment. I think that, with enough sincerity and effort, any sin can be forgiven, at least by God.
I’ve gotten off topic: sorry for that. Anyways, if I believe that God runs the Universe, and uses a judge to relay His punishment, then what goes along with that is that the idea of “free will” is wrong. Then the person being punished was, in fact, doing the will of God, and doesn’t truly deserve punishment, but to be treated with respect.
And let’s look at some of those judgements of men that were also passed from God. The Crusades, a “judgement” by the Pope to punish the Muslims for oppressing the local christian populace and desecrating the Holy Land. The Inquisition, when thousands of non-christians were slaughtered for the crime of not having Catholic beliefs. Finally, the Haulocaust, when Hitler passed judgement on the Jews, blaming them as the cause for losing the first World War and condemning them.
Based on those “judgements”, we are assuming that God wanted those massacres to happen. Why would He then turn and support the Allied Forces in punishing Hitler, after Hitler had done the Will of God?
This is why I don’t think that God has a grand plan. If I do, then I have to think that God wants people to die, that He favors one side. Also, considering that He’s omnipotent, He can pretty much do what He wants whether or not things are going the way He wants.
You must understand that Jesus was the Lord in human form came to preach divine knoweldge on this earth and to save His people from the sins and to give them the salvation.
Salvation is the breaking of all the worldly bonds and having only one bOND with the Lord in human form.When one love Lord in human form more than anything in this world without any selfishness then Lord in human form carries their sins and relieves them.
Jesus dieded for ‘His’ pople; those who have left everything for His sake and served Him without any selfishness for such people He underwent the agony. It is for His devotees He submissively gave Himself. He is the Lord in humna form; He could have easily escaped the crucification, if that is the case then how He will save His people.
Thus do not think that Lord is incapable at that time; it is His wish to undergo the agony to save His poeple from their sins.Here His poeple means all those devotees who left their family and served Him without any selfihsness.
Lord is substratum of the whole creation and hence forms base. Without Him creation cannot sustain. Lord created the universe for entertainment. He has given free will to all the human beings to do whatever they like. But, the results will follow the deeds. So, He is indirectly controlling, that is to say that enjoyment for good deeds and misery for bad deeds. Misery is to bring realisation only and not to repeat the same bad deed. Otherwise, He is not responsible for one’s deeds.
Creation is in Lord but Lord is not the creation. But such a Lord can enter creation at the request of devotees who wants Him only and His service. He comes down to give four fortunes to His devotees (to talk, to touch, co-living and to serve).
I’m afraid that I couldn’t follow that, since it seems that english isn’t your first language…
What I got is this (correct me if I’m wrong)
[quote=Dattaswami (translation into more conventional english, I hope)
God is the basis of the universe. Life, all creation, would die without him. He created the universe for our benefit, and has given free will to humans to do as they like. However, a bad deed will ulimately result in punishment from God. In other words, while He lets us do as we will, He will punish bad actions and reward right actions. This is so that we learn not to do bad deeds, while encouraging good ones.[/quote]
I’m not sure what the second paragraoh means. And tell me if I’m wrong, I was only trying to clarify your argument, not put words in your mouth.
However, in response to that, I go again to “Free Will”, which I think is defined by the complete non-intervention of God, direct or indirect.
I’m just afraid of being under a government whose leaders have shown they don’t know history. Really want to leave this state.
While some of your posts say the government means well, I still dislike the extraordinary rendition.
Plus, I don’t understand, how do you pay for injustice by performing unjust (“morally criminal”) acts (like murder for murder)?
Dear my real name;
God is a guru or teacher. All the souls in this universe are HIS students only. He is the class teacher and the Father of all the souls. God has given independence to all the souls alike, they can do whatever they like, but the results will follow.
The aim of human life is to serve Lord when He comes in human form and to please Him through the selfless love through the practical sacrifice by working for Him for His mission of divine knolwedge propagation. He comes in human form in every human generation. Due to lack ofdivine knolwedge people forget this main aim and indulge all sorts of side activities which bind them in this temporary world.
Lord punishes a soul when there is no other go, as a last resort only He punishes any soul, punishment is for introspection and not repeat the same sin again. You have not seen the previous act of a suffering soul, and you are showing kind to him now. Some body in the previoius might have killed a new born baby (say) and now he is suffering for that deed in this birth, you have not seen that deed to which he is suffering now. The suffering is to reduce his tendency to do such crimes in life in future.
You should understand Lord as Guru and this guru comes to this world in present generation to preach and uplift the human souls through His divine knowledge.
I will explain you futher about free will. God created this entire universe for His enterainment. This entire creation is just His imagination only, and with respect to Him this universe is like ‘nothing’ or almost nill, and hence Lord is the only truth or trueling existing. Lord see His imagination or universe like a cinema. Now God get entertainment the most when He is loved without any expectation. The absolute God who is the creator of this entire universe, enters into His imagination which is the creation through a human body known as Human Incarnation to preach and uplift the human souls. He will just appear like an ordinary human being but Lord is hidden in Him. By this we can see Him talk to Him touch Him and co-live with Him and He is known as Immanueal. Lord is pleased most when He get selfless service from a real devotee who serve Him without any expecation. He will become the servent of His servants.
Lord comes in every human generation in Humna form for preaching and uplifting the human souls. His identity mark is the true infinite divine knowledge which removes our ignorance. He is the correct place of God and no body can approach the absolute God who is beyond our imagination and comprehension, only through Human Incarnation one can approach the unimagnable God. The absolute unimaginable God gives His presence to us through the human body of the human incarnation.
In addition to the true divine knowledge He performs miracles also. And not for show and crowd pulling. He simply behave like an ordinary human being and He preaches the divine knowledge so that people can approach Him without any tension.
For understaing the Free will pleasse carefully analyse the following;
If everything is according to the will of the Lord, who is the overall controller, there is no independence for any human being in this world. In such case the human being should not receive the fruits of its actions. How do you justify this? [A question posed by a devotee to His Holiness Sri Datta Swami]
The Lord is controlling all the souls as per Veda “Aatmeshwaramâ€, which means that all the souls are ruled by the Lord. Gita also says the same “Bhuthanaam Eeswarahâ€. But this does not mean that there is no independence for the soul. When the king rules the kingdom, all the people in that kingdom are independent in their activities, but they are within the rules of the king. Thus a short span of independence in the human life exists under the control and supervision of the Lord. A cat caught a rat by its jaws.
It leaves the rat after a bite for a short span of time. In that span the rat gets independence and runs in any side as it likes. But the cat is watching the rat and catches it again whenever the rat is out of the limits of the supervision. Similarly the Lord called “Kaala†(death) catches a human being and bites. The bite is the illness of the human being. The repeated diseases are the repeated bites of the ‘Kaala†or the Lord. During the bite the rat looses completely its independence.
Similarly any human being, which is attacked by the disease becomes a patient and looses its independence completely. The cat plays with the rat for sometime like this and finally swallowes the rat. Similarly, the human being is swallowed by the Lord at the end. The whole creation itself is like a rat for the cat like Lord, which is told in Brahmasutra “Atta Charaachara Grahanaatâ€.
Thus the short span of independence of human beings under the supervision of the overall controlling Lord, creates the full game and entertainment for the Lord. The entertainment is the basic reason of the creation by the Lord as said in Veda (Ekaaki Na Ramate) and as said in Brahmasutra (Lokavattu). Within the limits of the supervision of the cat, the rat will receive the result of the direction in which it runs. In one direction there may be fire and the rat may receive the heat. In another direction there may be cold water and the rat will receive the coolness in that direction.
The rat is independent to receive the result of the direction and has full independence to go in any direction. The final death of the rat shows that the rat is under the control of the cat during its choice of direction also, which is not interfered by the cat. Similarly the human life is with full of independence but the final end proves that the independence is under the control of the Lord. Yet, since there was no interference of the Lord during the human life, the human being receives the results according to its actions. Thus the “whole game is perfectly justified in any angleâ€.
It’s nice to know that I’m just like one of those villagers from Age of Empires 
.
Well, I’d like to point out (and I’m sure you realize this), that while humans are, biologically speaking, just animals, we have reached a certain level of consciousness that is beyond that of animals, specifically, that we are aware that we will die. It’s inaccurate to compare humans to animals.
We die whether or not we do right or wrong in our lives. A ‘bad’ person may die in his bed while a ‘good’ person gets hit by a truck. Certainly a good person deserves to die in his bed, while a bad person deserves a less peaceful death.
I’d like to agree with you, but I can’t see any kind of system in which God deals life and death. The good people die, and the bad people get away with it (sometimes). To be honest though, that was not really an ideal analogy. I think that you could come up with one that better conveys your argument.
I’m not sure what kind of mission you mean. My my teaching, man is impotent to aid in god’s plan.
True freedom is only achievable with God’s help, since with God all things are possible.
mrn
I think I know now why I’m arguing with you. It’s not that I disagree, but that I tend to split hairs about just about everything. See, I don’t believe in an orderly system where God gives and takes (not exactly at least). However, God (or Lord, or whatever other name you call Him or whatever Higher Power He actually is) has lain out the plans for which you can reap the benefits of your hard work (provided that you do, in fact, do it yourself, without divine intervention). That’s what I think.