Wikipedia Jainism and High School Parmenides

It seems that among the older religions, like Jainism, the norm was to establish a text containing “the truth about the universe,” “what you can look forward to,” and “how to go about it.”

The part that philosophy is concerned with is “the truth about the universe.” What better evidence than the first ancient Greek to be considered a philosopher with a surviving work: only the “truth about the universe” part was left. “What you can look forward to” was covered by popular worship of Zeus et al. and “how to go about it” is missing. The Greek in question was Parmenides, who so eloquently explained how that which is, is, and that which is not, is not (thus what is cannot not be and what is not cannot be).

Jainism covers a more psychological angle, but I think this is a pretty good case for original religions to be naturally occuring phenomena in certain cultural conditions that are able to adapt to changing conditions.

In other words, there will always be a guy with the intention and the know-how to get you to join a cult.

I think Thales is pretty damn psychological in his orientation. His assumptions of water are aligned with mystic-water myths of mesopotamia. This is the basis of later religions use of water in Christianity, Mesopotamian era proto hermeticism, the Mandaeans and Islam. It predates the platonic concept of the soul, and is in many ways congruent to later concepts of airy emptiness. You only need to look at the chemical morphological symbolism water took later on in India to grasp the depths the ancient world considered it in its alchemical transmutations. Its both quite modern and secular in outlook, as well as imaginitive and spiritual, giving names to experiences and assumptions they didnt other wise know how to express. Thales was the first to combine the ‘mes’ of thinking with its metaphysical realities. However, I dont see too much originality in his thinking. The analytic assumptions diverged from his dialectic awareness, before this era in world mythology, from india to greece, the analytic was as much a former as a destroyer of the dialectic process. It produced the Muses after all. Dialectics until the 19th century didnt regain even this primitive awareness of the interchangability. Nietzsche was dimly aware, the Marxist is trapped in a analytic method, uncertain of which aspect of though dominated the other… the persona of the dialectician, or the impersonal scientific method.

Everyone tries to be witty when it comes to science and dialectics, and think they are removed and in control of its idealized means. Even Thales. Interesting how for so long in human history prior we were uninterested in this phenomena of consciousness outside of templar worship. The Goddess’ silver, the ziggurat and the removed fortress taught us much. Thales civilization was the byproduct of this evolution.

Indubitably, presumption is a big part of any modern mentality (I think this is a big reason the Muslims hate us).

It is the fault of the philosophers, who thought we would accept being preached to from higher planes than ours.

Does Thales have any surviving works?

If he does, I bet they fit into the threefold pattern I described.

Hmm… Perhaps this is how I myself am a swindler. I am constantly attempting to co-opt the pre-existing swindle.

Also, there is always truth involved in a swindle.

Fragments, antecedots and several authorative commentators. He also has a lineage of followers building on him in the west as well as the east. His precedents are largely apparent as well. You buddy Nietzsche has a published lecture on him, Nietzsche’s ‘The Pre-Platonic Philosophers’. I know Iswallows read it too, so you can hit him up on it, think Ive dispensed too much info as of late, doesnt lend to a well rounded character to get everything from one source.

As I thought. So I was right about quoting Parmenides as the first philosopher with a surviving text.

Not to be a stickler.

Um, no. The Diologue of pessimism… a mesopotamian text predates Thales and gives evidence to the dialogue style Plato would later use. Zoroaster almost certainly predated Thales, as well as the book on Manu and it’s Irish Cousin Laws of Fenechus, Rg Veda, several egyptian texts on math and statecraft/ethics, several systems of astronomy preserved, oldest is german, not to mention a difficult mess from Tamil I am having trouble dating. Also a truckload of mythology, and some pretty philosophically minded historians and law givers. Also, there are pictograph histories we have textual histories built out of from the near east from temples, making them quite old… but how old i dont know. Lots of persian fragments.

There is more, especially from India, but difficult at times to date. I Ching is quite old, much older than Thales, and Taoism is clearly a philosophy, but has roots stretching back into the Shang Divinatory system. I can do some research compiling a topography I suppose.

Parmenides.

Still, that topography would be fun to see.

No… as I said, Dialogue of Pessimism is older. Look it up, its 100 percent Nietzschean Nihilism, focusing on slave-master morality, systematically goingb through the checklist of everything Nietzsche warned against. It can be read in two minutes, but is the most important work on philosophy… essentially the first, for any Nietzschean to consider outside of Nietzsche’s works. Nietzsche himself would of ejaculated seeing it, it speaks even of the death of god.

gatewaystobabylon.com/myths/ … simism.htm

For giving this to you, you owe me now. You have to make/dedicate to me a free, 10 minute youtube video playing it out scene by scene ( you can use shadows on a Mesopotamian styled wall with the shadows looking like ancient people talking with a slave with subtitles) and linking it to Nietzsche’s philosophy, part by part. Should take a few hours at most, and cost nothing but perhaps cutting up cardboard for the shapes in shadow play.

The books of Ecclesiastes and the Book of Job are consider counter developments resulting from this lineage of thought. Some have noted it’s a predecessor for Plato’s Dialogues. This is odd… as Nietzsche wouldn’t trust the Judeo-Christian tradition as the cure to Nihilism, but this is exactly how they apparently evolved. It’s a enigma for any true Nietzschean or someone with interest in Nietzsche… as well as any Christian or Jew wanting to validate the superiority of the faith over and threw Nietzsche’s own logic. We’re not the nihilist, we are the triumph ending them. Nietzsche resurrected the decadent mentality, instinctively zeroing in on the thinking the religion repressed in our pagan predecessors in Mesopotamia. This is definitely, in the light of Nietzsche, a default work on nihilistic philosophy, and predates Thales and Parmenides.

Sorry Nietzschans… the history of early philosophy does not smile upon you. Perplexing and interesting as fuck though, isn’t it? Of all things in the past in the beginning, it’s this… sitting there, mocking you… luring you into a reevauation of the sequencing of human progress. This text alone makes one examine what a overman to last man relation would look like. The fall of Marduk’s kingdom… the Jewish caste and the Tower of Babylon… and then Cyrus… and the collapse of that system’s nihilism… leading to the overman… the Judeo-Christian tradition (there are traditions in the Zoroaster faith that Christ was a prophet predicted within their religion, it’s why the Magi was searching for them, it’s why Cyrus returned the jews and opened up the construction of the new temple, as he didn’t want his kingdom to look bad to the future prophet of his faith… and it’s why the jews made him the only gentile messiah in their religion. Old testament always spoke highly of Cyrus the Great. This is of course… the customs and traditions, most of the Zoroaster texts were destroyed by the muslim onslaught so we can’t textually confirm it.

na na na na na na :banana-dance:

maat.sofiatopia.org/ptahhotep.htm
The website above offers a more indepth analysis of the work below, but I got the translation from below from elsewhere, so you can compare the two- this is older than the Book of Pessimism, and it’s one of the main works that clearly had a massive influence on Jesus that’s still available from the ancient world, and shatters the Buddhism hypothosis… making much, much more likely that the carpenter child Jesus hitched a ride with one of the impressed temple priests to Alexandria, spent some time reading in the library there and living in the proto-christian community of Philo of Alexandria before wandering back up north again and joining the hippy community of his relation John the Baptist, falling in with a bunch of fishermen.

There are older works… I am having trouble finding them. I remember seeing works of math on this scroll, so give me some time in tracking that… this computer is almost dead, so I gotta switch to my copy and paste incapable Nook Tablet for the rest of the day.

My only comment for the moment:

Akkadian does not = Greek.

You are right, but you are not right in that I was not right.

You wanted a greek philosopher before Parmenides? Fuck… so damn fineky. So… Milesian… would this be what rthnicity or cultural tradition… Hittite, persian, Lydian, Palegian… okay, Ill look through the hittite and stoic records… they had records on law, history, and mythology, maybe some tract was preserved in the annals and can be traced in evolution to what would become greek. You make shit hard, you know that… it should be enough I trampled the Thales was first assumption.

Looks like Hesiod’s Works just barely beat out Thales, his Works and Days qualifies definately as philosophy. Havent read his other work. So… yeah. Even when you retard the situation to greek, there are works around prior. Ill still look into the protogreeks… found two none greek persians I have to read now.

You might as well credit Homer with being a philosopher with surviving work previous to Parmenides. These poets, though perhaps philosophical “in a way,” never delved right into philosophical stuff. Therefore, I still maintain that Parmenides was the first ancient Greek philosopher with a surviving work.

Even the Dialogue of Pessimism, though admittedly fucking awesome (and I think mistakenly named), isn’t pure philosophy. It is more what Parmenides would call “human opinions.”

Parmenides doesnt have a monopoly on philosophy, no one does, not even system builders. Pessimism is pure philosophy. Its a instinctive drive in use, and uses no singular part of the mind, hence no universal genesis. We tried many times in the past to try this, and if there every is one capable of refuting this pointing to the philosophy node of the brain… a silicon constructed artifical mind will reply ‘fuck you’ and continue on pondering without that node. As will my cat when contemplating the mystery of what happens to her poop when we scoop it up and bag it. The mysteries abound, and the game is afoot.

This being said, Illad and Odyssey are off the list, as is the Mahabhrata. I can include portions, if they suggest a completed stand alone form within, but cant spot any in the Homeric Cycles… though the are plenty in other epic cycles around the world. I dont know why this is the case… seems rather odd, a epic cycle IS the literature of a preliterate civilization. It contains the diversity of its systems. Not so here though. I have found this to be pyzzling for a year now. Might explain Herodotus and his grasp for picking out the philosophical and historical from the theological and mythological. I dont think he caused it of course, but is as much a subject to the force as the creation of the homeric cycles. You have no idea how strongly they’ve shaped our hermenuetic methods and philology and approach to idealist wriying and quoting. Not like with the Spring and Autumn Annals… dear god, so different.

All of the objections you raised in that last post are properly addressed in the OP.

There are direct ways of investigating “the truth about the universe,” and there are indirect ones. The direct ones are philosophy. The indirect ones are usually art.

I am saying that philosophy is not some neurological function of humans, but a specific tradition with set parameters.

The traditions are neurologically processed, and the parameters are fixed in the structure of the brain tissue and how we train our neurological pathways to neurochemically check processed information from going where. What, you think you just type letters onto a computer, and the letters fit into letter molds in the computer and are mechanically juxtapositioned till a pidgeon picks up the letter and flies it down the line to the next computer to be unpacked, taken out of its brass mold, and reassembled on the screen? There are processor chips and hard drives involved. Your expectation to liberate philosophy via negating neurology is foolish here, just increases the unconscious metaphysical dependency… which if gained and pondered from a empirical void is honest enough… but in your case you know better. Maybe my watch is calculating my traditional assumptions for me… Im a schitzocyborg. Lets get high and walk around in the Australian Aboriginal Dreamworld while were at it.

You are trying to mix HTML with binary code. Yes, binary code allows HTML to exist, but they behave in radically different ways.

You say philosophy is dependent on neurology? I say philosophy is just friendlier neurological code. The parameters for a webpage are not determined by binary programing directly, but indirectly by a composite programing language that uses binary code.

In this way, philosophical thought uses pre-existing neurological structures, but is not pre-determined by them. If this were the case, we could expect people at any given point of homo sapiens history to spontaniously write down quantum theory in the English language.

The truth is more complicated than this. In fact, there are, to use your words, diverse arrays of feedback loops between instinctual action and abstract thought. Philosophy as abstract thought is more a tradition than a neurological structure because it requires abstract parameters that were developped in an evolutionary process of natural selection to be inculcated into the pre-existing neurological structure of any given human being.

I study memetics as well as genetics.