these days its getting easier and easier to not have an ego, to not be fake, to be your true nature. in the old days the line between a good person and a bad person was clouded, and the person themselvs didnt even know, whether they were good or evil. as brain power increases ego dissolution is no longer reserved for only monks who sit around meditating all day. im starting to think if certain people actually selfactualized, and became their true nature, they would be evil (by the mere fact that thats what they would want to be if it were up to them ,which it just might be). of course it would be nice if i were mistaken. however if in the future, everyone is egoless, will it not turn into a huge battle; a battle between good and evil? there will be nothing to discuss. is the future (say 300 years) headed toward a world wide war between good and evil. between human and narrcisist. i hope not. is all this ego fakeness preventing a state of constant war? my psychology teacher told our class that one in seven people is a narrcisist. meaning that they view others with as much respect and compasion as they view a pencil. god i hope my psychology teacher was wrong.
What about ego desolution causes ‘self actualization’?..whatever that is.
Since the ego is the self, this seems contradictory.
What about ‘these days’ makes it ‘easier not to have an ego and be your true nature’? Again this seems contradictory.
What evidence do you have that brain power is on the rise in humans?
Do you believe in an objective measurable ‘good’ vs an evil of the same measurability?
How do you test the ‘goodness’ or ‘evilness’ of something in a lab?
What is ‘ego fakeness’?
What about ego desolution causes ‘self actualization’?..whatever that is.
What GH is getting at is in the middle of a semantic minefield.
Ego Dissolution is when your personality fades away, but your consciousness remains. Self actualization is more like a… complete internal objectivity… or at least that’s the best way I can sum it up now. It’s common with… LSD experiences, and present, but less rare in sport/meditation/etc.
Now… GH is saying that once you see your true self, once the barriers have been washed away… what you are left with is either good or evil.
I would have to disagree slightly. I can see what you’re saying… but I think that when you’re TRULY in that transcendental state, there won’t be any good or evil. It’s just that just before you reach that state… you are seeing many of your actions in a more objective light, and thus they may seem more good or evil (to you… on some level) than your sober personality lets you see. But it’s still based on YOUR framework.
When you truly self actualize… you’re one, it’s all gone.
Your definition of self actualization sounds extremely unapealing to me.
What’s the hook suposed to be?
I happen to LIKE my personality. Conciousness without personality? Is that even possible?
I contend probably not, unless you lose all ability to make judgements about anything.
And I see his point about being left with ‘pure good’ or ‘pure evil’ once the ego is stripped away, but without further context it seems rather ridiculous.
Good and evil are subjective value judgements.
You pretty much do, but it’s liberating in a certain sense.
It’s nirvana in buddhism without the meditation.
Yes, the unatainable golden apple. Every religion seems to have one.
Most of the time you have to die to get the apple. Pity.
Exactly… you don’t have to die, though there are certainly downsides.
It would appear to me the downside is that the apple is in fact rotten.
is always is
Individual humans have not become any more intelligent since the dawn of written history, they just have more prior information available.
Judging by what I've seen of people actions when they believe they're unaccountable for them this seems like an optimistic estimate.
what about ego dissolution causes s.a…well its not that when your ego dissolves you loose your personality, you just loose your fake personality. you are left with your real emotions, and they line up perfectly with your real emotions, this makes thinking way easier, and it makes self actualization much much easier. self actualization is when your doing every thing you care about, the best you possibly can. the effects of this are; your head gets super clear, and you feel unified with the world. what makes somthing evil? to tell you the truth my answer is not concrete, but i think taking pleasure out of another sentinent beings suffering, would be evil. im not saying it will come down to good vrs evil. i just wanted to hear what others thoughts on the subject are. what about these days makes it easier to be your true nature, well it just seems like because everything is so fake, no one believes shit anymore, therefore dont alter their natural behavior. ego fakeness is like if im mad at my mom, but speak to her in a loving voice. its deception, whether one is aware they are doing it or not. its when your emotions dont add up with your facial expressions. what evidence do i have of human intelligence on the rise? well none, other then the fact that alot of the younger generations, seemed to have stopped swallowing all of this american dream, matrialistic trash propoganda, free thought seems to be increasing among people.
old gobbo–so your saying an evil person canot self actualize? i agree. enlightenment is about the acceptence of everything. you have to be able to say yes, and to give up all of the credit you take for yourself, and all of your shame. so its kind of like every one is good, but if they insist on calling themselves evil, they can be. i was in an enlightened state for a couple of days, i didnt want to hurt anyone. i wasnt realy concerned with anything, i wanted others to expirence it, though, and i did get a strong sense that there was a force of goodness in life. however i dont recall feeling a sense of evil, i dont think i saw evil in people. i think i saw eithir goodness or fakeness, but no evil. so maybe evil is fake, but doesnt the fact that some people want to be evil, indicate that there is some kind of sinister force that is natural in existance? i guess a better title for this thread would be : is evil real? (once again i dont know the answer)
maybe another way of describing evil is; against love, to the point where one is actively trying to destroy it. alot of people dont believe in love, those people arent evil, because its not like they are stompling flowers and killing babies, they just dont care, and although its unfortunate, its o.k., they are not bad people.
You talk about good and evil as if they were objectively measurable.
Prove it.
GalacticHeart wrote:
I think I see what your saying here, but your view ego-fakeness makes for a few difficulties, more specifically, the belief that once actualization occurs, a pureness is left that can contain good or evil. What I feel your really getting at is not necessarily ego-fakness, but existence of ego in itself. The ego conforms relatively to prior experience, for this is what ego is, past experience and the hopes and goals of future experience. Its all fake in comparison to our true self, or the existence of consciousness without our own separate reality that is self-focused and produced.
Just as Dr. Satanical is alluding to, evil and good are relative terms. What you perceived as goodness is that which is good to you relatively, while the fakeness is seemingly that which is deviating from this relatively good state of being which is all of our center. Considering our earthly existence, there are many levels. The higher being more closely associated with our true selves, and the lower being more closely associated with an earthly produced self, or how you felt, a fake self. This fakeness can be considered as evil, but in reality evil doesnt exist, just deviation from the real true self, or pure consciousness. Living on the earth, and being conscious of whats right in front of us as separate beings, we desire. This desire is the underlying component of a separate self, while something like love is the underlying component of the pure self. Its hard to see the connection because we are the self, but the self wants for, while the pure self or consciousness gives for. This giving is love. I mean I attempted to think of the opposite of desire, and its so interesting that I come up with not want. This is in relation to ego or self as well. But in stepping away from self, the opposite of desire, would be to not want for self, but considering the positive connotation of desire, a positive connotation must exist for the opposite when considering an egoless state. The only word I could come up with is love, or giving for unconditionally, and it rightly fits. Take for instance when you love someone like your family or child or whatever, often times we refer to this love as saying, “I would do anything for them, give anything for them”, ect.
But anyway, getting to the point, our selfish desire brings about what can be described or interpreted as evil. This is why I believe if evil exist, it would be selfishness, while good is selflessness. When Adam and Eve ate from the tree, they sinned, it was selfish; something out of desire for themselves. Often times when you do for self, you step on others and take away from others, this can be referred to as evil. Our fake selves make for doing bad or evil things. For something to be bad or evil, it has to hurt, go against, or take away from someone else. Bad or evil is relative to good, so it only comes about through relation, or deviation from our true self, which in our language contains the attributes we have labeled as good. The way we think is through comparison, so evil is simply that which is compared to our true self or goodness as the deviation from it, ie. the fakeness. I hope this makes sense.
GalacticHeart wrote:
Ha! I just read this part. Great minds, or might I say, closer to truth containing, more pure, less clouded, spiritually focused minds think alike!
I dont think its actively trying to destroy it, but more so in the act of “being yourself”, doing for yourself, and desiring for yourself, you are destroying the pure love(or the giving aspect) considered here. And your right, none of us are bad or evil, just ignorant of the truth! I suppose real and true evil, would be those who know and more importantly realize the truth, and still reject it, attempting attain to higher levels for selfish reasons. Fake mystics, ect.
illative, i changed it to “once actualization occurs , you are left with only pure goodness”, (with some help from old gobbo, and some remembering). so the ego is impure good or impure evil, hence there is no such thing as natural evil in humans, at least at their core being… however if someone is naturally good, and has the cappabilities to go back to this state, but chooses not to. would that make him naturally evil?, wouldnt it be like him recreating himself, as evil. I DONT KNow. everyone please keep in mind , im not trying to prove anything with this thread, these are all just theories, and do to the complexity, have to be taken very lightly.
illative i just read your last post, and its exactly the question im asking. the people who know the truth, yet still reject it, for selfish reasons. wouldnt that rejection be them recreating themselves as evil? i know the vast majority of evil in humans is fake, but are there not some that know exactly what they’re doing, what they’re going against, and why. if so wouldnt this be pure evil. or if say it is imposible for a human to be purly evil (which i hope it is) , doesnt the fact that we live in a world full of suffering, prove that there is some kind of sinister force at work, that is going aginst goodness? i think that with the luxery of free will, people are aloud to create themselves good or evil. if someone chooses to be evil, or is tricked into being evil, isnt that a sign of a sinister force at work? this force isnt pure, but isnt it naturally occuring?
…and if so, wouldnt good and evil be naturally opposed to one another. if somthing freely chooses to be evil, doesnt it become truly evil. even though evil is a lie, doesnt the fact that people choose to believe it, make it true?
GalacticHeart wrote:
Your getting at something. This force you speak of is the realization of separate consciousness. Basically us being aware as a separate being. Free will. This provides for all sorts of things that go against our true nature. In the case of an individual who knows and realizes his true nature, but refuses to accept it as such, it appears almost as if this individual is truly deevolving. But maybe not so, I mean is that even possible? Its hard to explain, because I cant even imagine this position, but it must provide for some purpose. I mean I can see purpose for evil and suffering, for suffering provides for knowledge of good and evil, knowledge that what we have done to cause our suffering, we shouldnt do anymore, and we grow in that aspect. But for the individual who decides to do evil, having realized all of this, its almost as if his amount of suffering is unredeemable. I think thats really the blasphemy of the holy spirit. Knowing your true nature and going against it, there cant be any worse sin. I suppose this individual simply isnt done learning yet. Sometimes, and I would imagine very few, our earthly existence has affected our being so much, that even when we come to realize the truth of ourselves, we continue to reject it for the earthly existence. I mean this is obviously an extreme case, but it happens. And from my position, for it to happen, it must happen for a reason. We have free will, and due to this free will we make choices, our free will and choices are based on our earthly existence and our past, ie. who we are, and the results that incur are directly related to us and our choices, so we can learn from them. When an individual goes that far, he must continue to learn in some way. It appears as if he hasnt been able to ascribe meaning to his life, for if he has, then he would know how important and urgent it is to get rid of these earthly desires. The only way the soul can go is up. The soul must grow, even this soul grows, but obviously it must take extreme consequences for this individual to grow, something that I couldnt even imagine. Evil or this force is used for growth in all cases, so it seems. So even though we perceive this force as bad, its really much needed, and good.