Angel,
your hmmm… still has me curious. 
Shalom
I had not intended to be mysterious. I guess I wanted to let you know that I was still here, listening and contemplating. Contemplating this suspiciousness of others. Two things come to mind, well many things really but two off hand. One is that when we see someone in error, I have come to realise that one would, like Jesus taught from the cross learn from them - learn not to make the same mistakes and very importantly, not to judge them, and the second is that it is difficult to enter the Kingdom of Heaven if one already has all the answers. And still my “hmmm…” also might have indicated that I was waiting to hear what else you might have to say.
A
Incompleteness, where have I seen that before? [everywhere, always]
“your heavenly Father feedeth them”
Many beings starve to death every day, as the all-mighty “feedeth them”.
What I see – is a symbolic, monotheistic head, – representing the source, ideals and meaning of all life, – reflected within nature, trusted by the believer, and indifferent towards all the needs of mortals.
Creationism is a form of nature-worship, at a different angle. When monotheistic, it becomes clumped together & filtered, eventually causing an amoral, anarcho natural order to appear to have morals. Only certain parts of “creation” are expressions of what god wants, whilst a person’s own faults/sins, which the “Creator” “created” – are blamed upon someone or something other then the “Creator”.
Satan seems to be the fault of “freewill”, not the fault of the one who built him. By this principal, a nation which builds an ICBM – is not responsible for who it destroys, and it in itself [its imperfect, unstable atoms which release their energy] are to blame?
Nay to blame and meaning. The universe is a blind autocracy.
And miracles are not even proof of god.
If you’ll check my “Tulpian creation principal” thread, you’ll see that it is possible for groups of humans to create “gods”.
The god of the bible was not capable of teaching humans scientific facts about the creation that he created. He didn’t really give new knowledge, but he used what the people already knew, instead. He behaved very much like a tulpian.
Bob, what is this world Jesus is referring to. Where is this other place?
It would be impossible for Christianity to be accepted by exponents of the World which appear to be the majority.
The purpose of Christianity is to allow through the Holy Spirit for Man to evolve from one world to another. This must begin with the recognition of our fallen condition or psychologically of the wretched man.
This is not to abandon the world but as Plato said in the cave analogy, once a person understands they are compelled to return to the darkness while retaining the light received for the sake of the potential of humanity.
Of course secular Christendom is not like this and for many, the world is all that is wanted. I guess it doesn’t really matter. Water seeks its own level.
It seems that the parable of the Good Samaritan is more appropriate for the intent of the Bible Study. It is perfect for illustrating the idea that human consideration outweighs any sort convention based on self importance.
With such an attitude, religious differences would never cause friction. It is very good for the world but I do not believe Christianity limits itself to this world. But understanding the nature of our attachments to it first necessitates the experience of ourselves as the “Wretched Man. and our helplessness in the face of it.”
Hi Angel,
Thanks, but I had to go to bed - my old bones were complaining about me abusing them yesterday.
Shalom
Hi Dan~
Yes, we seem to be able to see the incompleteness of others, but do we recognise our own incompleteness? Do we recognise our own extremism? Do we see that we contribute the majority towards our own situation? Torah shows us where we have problems and will have us step back and contemplate. Christ, on the other hand, invites us to find rest in his salvation, and use his yoke to cope with the burdens we have to bear.
First of all, please don’t jump back and forth but instead take time to consider what is really being said. Jesus said, “look at the birds of the heaven, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns.†We are so concerned with this task that we have no time to consider whether what we are doing is really necessary, or whether we are missing an important aspect of life.
Starvation on this planet, on the other hand, is the result of that missing aspect of life. Our economic systems don’t work well for people who take time out to consider whether what they are doing is meaningful, or who seek to support other people or other areas. The economy dictates and isn’t interested in starving beings until it becomes such a big problem that it can’t be ignored, or a market opens up.
Your are actually behaving just the way I described, even if you are not part of organised religion. Your assumption of so many things has you seeking out the splinter in the eye of others, whereas you miss the plank. You mean it well, I’m sure, but in the end it is all vanity in the sense of Ecclesiastes 2.
Shalom
Hi Nick,
Jesus is saying literally, “My sovereignty isn’t part of this arrangement. If it was you would see my servants fighting to prevent me being delivered to the Jews. But then again, my sovereignty isn’t from here.â€
In saying so, he says that he has a sovereignty, but one that is foreign to the arrangements of the present political status and not recognised by those in power. For those, however, who are willing to hear the truth, they know who he is. So the need of a “place†as such is not applicable.
Again, here he says, “[u]if[/u] your contemporaries hate you, you know that they have hated me before you …†and of course, with John, it is the resurrected Christ who is speaking through the story. There will always be a degree of confrontation, of course, but to assume that this will only end when at last God destroys the world and recreates it, seems to be your Russian side speaking.
I agree that the spiritual have always been seen as a threat to authorities, since we seem subversive to the order they have created. The systems of the economic arrangement need a machination that churns out profit for those driving them, whereas spirituality is related to the natural self-preserving force of creation, which, like the Holy Spirit, blows where it wants. This means that confrontation is always programmed, except where the Church (or a similar organisation) learns to milk such systems, whilst building up a micro-cosmos where the Spirit can rule. Of course, this wouldn’t be undisputable.
Perhaps I should ask you what the world is that you speak of?
The good Samaritan is appropriate for a whole range of reasons, but it begins with the question, “who is my neighbour?†It ends, however, with the question, “who are you a neighbour to?†It turns the passive compassion into active compassion, and takes the time needed. The other examples in the parable all have important, even religious responsibilities, but they do not have the time to do the right thing. This is because organised religion can too become a machination that drives past those who have broken down on the wayside.
We are living in a world which has exactly this focus. If people take the time needed to do the right thing, they are punished by being separated from the benefits. The good Samaritan questions first of all what measure we use, when we judge people. Secondly it questions our implications within the existing systems. It may well be, like those who marched past the poor man on the roadside, that our task is very important and we are being responsible, but it is our wretchedness coming through.
Shalom
I imagine that your old bones would be grateful for the exercise.
A
Hi Angel,
No doubt about that at all, I suppose the abuse was really the lack of excercise - there you see, another example.
Shalom
Yes, the signs are all around us. Because the signs are a reflection of our minds.
A
Hi Bob,
Life is the absence of striving for life. We are what we are, where we are, when we are. This is the “You are here” realization so many blithely pass over. Who has enough faith to let go and accept their place? Making our way, making sense of, is futility. Finding our way, finding our sense of, comes from letting go of life, not clinging to life. So simple. Too simple.
Hi Bob
As usual we consider these questions, as for example “place,” from different perspectives.
Jesus is referring to his “Being.” Remember that I consider the universe as comprised of levels. The individual man, as a microcosmos, also exists as levels the same as in the Great Cosmos of our universe but smaller in scale. The level of earth which for us is the domain of the Wretched Man, is the place of our normal lives. When a person begins to awaken he sees that he is the wretched man or attached to the earth which is the same idea in Buddhism for example.
“The Kingdom of Heaven is within.” It is the next higher level of being possible within the individual microcosmos. For us it would be the ability to experience and live “now.” This is not possible for our chaotic inner state. We are either dominated by preconceptions created by the past or anticipations of the future. To live “now” or in heaven would be to live consciously connected to the above higher levels of being and yet capable of descending to experience the earth and the ways in which Man has psychologically distorted its impressions.
Place means to me the level of being referred to while for most it is a matter of a geographical area on earth.
Again, I am referring to a level of being both within and above the wretched man. Most seem asleep to it and many will even forget after the experience for one reason or another explained in the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13:
biblegateway.com/passage/?se … version=31
All of Matthew 13 refers to the Kingdom but Jesus insists that speaking directly would cause more harm than good so he speaks in parables. These parables refer to the connection of worlds or levels of being.
It is revealing at the end (53) where the prophet is without honor. It means that the new cannot be received by the old which is what we do in our interpretations. It just renders it powerless.
When I read Matthew 13 from this idea of levels and perspective based on “as above,so below,” it takes on a completely different meaning than trying to understand it socially or politically. Social and political change occurs on the earth, its movement is horizontal. Evolution from one world to the other is the vertical movement along the line of being and away from attachment to the earth and this same attachment that is the concern of all the great traditions…
It refers to the quality of the moment, of “now,” which seems to have devolved from the gradual loss of value of conscious attention into la la land. This idea of the quality of now has degenerated into a secular meaning defined by societal standards rather than the objective esoteric psychological distinction between qualities of our being.
Help for the Wretched Man comes through the Holy Spirit as Grace. Christianity is a means of becoming aware of ourselves as the wretched man and what we must do to become open to grace and its power to awaken.
Again the same idea. We are able to sleep through this inner condition of the wretched man because of our ability to imagine. Yet for those needing to become more than the fallen wretched man, it is necessary to sacrifice imagination and see oneself, carry ones cross. Very few with such a need and are not willing to strive to live. Most prefer to keep dwelling in imagination unaware of the potential being sacrificed: heaven.
Am I?
What would happen if I obeyed god’s commandments?
Instead of brute force, man dominating man also happens through faith, dreams, hope and morality.
All I see is a life divoted to assimilation.
Men wrote it all. Men wanted to control eachother, so some became prophets or preachers.
Do you see this, Bob?
Isn’t this a far simpler demarcation of what religion might or might not be?
To add another irony; if God did exist he would support man’s simplest demarcation.
“Get off your knees, you cowards!”- God
Dan~ & detrop,
So tell me, where does your particular soapbox begin and end? What is the demarcation line for your “religion”?
We all are prophets and preachers or we wouldn’t be here. Perhaps there is too much irony in that. Maybe were just “seers”, talking keyboards, commentators who stand outside the party with microphones in hand, telling one and all what they are witnessing…
So, let’s say the gods are talking, and the men are not. Then what?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_objectivism
Would I be surprised that the gods of Aristotle and the gods of the Jews said the same thing? And yet one of them was untrue/did not exist? No, the gods are a mans own opinions, set even higher then himself.
The reason why the morality of “god” finds similarities in the gods that he said do not even exist – is because “god” was created by the same species, largely sharing the same prime values.
If I said something was right – it would be my efforts towards honesty.
If I said something as a lowley messenger from my god – I would be more arrogant then anyone who personally commanded others.
Everything from Karma to the final Judgments, all of the gods and forces of justice are fantasy creatures, created as means of revenge upon the unjust and physically un-touchable forces which continue to exist up antil this day!!! These human fantasies are a reaction to the unjust world, they are not “the truth”.
The world appears to be so “unjust” – because of the inequal distribution of law and power. Within this system, those above or beyond the law can commit any sort of evil that they wish. Today, the ritch war-lords, the drug lords and the corporations are the big-monsters which simply cannot be stopped, as they infect and destroy justice. “Justice” – on larger scale – is now mercinary work, fueled by the inequality of capitalism.
Marx > God.
Just some red-raving, because detrop made my communist bodyparts so horny…
Dan~,
That which is God doesn’t talk, so there is no ‘then what?’ But then, you already knew that.
Alright Dan, I need to know the truth. Are you a hot Russian chick or not? You said you were a while back, and now that I am making you horny, if you are a hot Russian chick…I think we need to talk.
Hi Nick,
I wonder why this is? Perhaps I am too simple-minded for such thoughts like those you entertain! I just look at what was said, make an analysis based on what we know and what philologists can tell us and come up with a translation that makes sense.
Apart from your considerations or even the considerations of other “expertsâ€, what evidence would you suggest points to the fact that he didn’t mean that which I have translated? The levels that you propose would also suggest some kind of reincarnation, since how is mankind to pass through these levels – or is it possible within a lifetime?
It sounds fantastic, just a shame that Jesus never wrote it down for us, or even Paul, who did tend to write a lot. I seem to find negations of “levels†in the epistles, negations of the idea that we will ever be more than the wretched man in this life, but that this “problem†can be overcome by faith.
Of course, the word place does have a number of meanings.
place
n.
1.
a. An area with definite or indefinite boundaries; a portion of space.
b. Room or space, especially adequate space: There is place for everyone at the back of the room.
2.
a. The particular portion of space occupied by or allocated to a person or thing.
b. A building or an area set aside for a specified purpose: a place of worship.
3.
a. A dwelling; a house: bought a place on the lake.
b. A business establishment or office.
c. A locality, such as a town or city: visited many places.
4. Abbr. Pl. A public square or street with houses in a town.
5.
a. A space in which one person, such as a passenger or spectator, can sit or stand.
b. A setting for one person at a table.
6. A position regarded as belonging to someone or something else; stead: She was chosen in his place.
7. A particular point that one has reached, as in a book: I have lost my place.
8. A particular spot, as on the body: the place that hurts.
9.
a. The proper or designated role or function: the place of the media in a free society.
b. The proper or customary position or order: These books are out of place.
c. A suitable setting or occasion: not the place to argue.
d. The appropriate right or duty: not her place to criticize.
10. Social station: He overstepped his place.
11. A particular situation or circumstance: Put yourself in my place.
12. High rank or status.
13. A job, post, or position: found a place in the company.
14. Relative position in a series; standing.
15. Games. Second position for betting purposes, as in a horserace.
16. The specified stage in a list of points to be made, as in an argument: in the first place.
17. Mathematics. A position in a numeral or series.
Interesting theory, I am yet to be convinced. I could understand if you were talking of facets of being, just as the varying ground where the seed lands reveal the various facets of our existence and our inconsistency. We all have times when we are receptive but superficial, when we are as hard as a rock, when trials and tribulations choke the “seedâ€, and times when the “seed†can bring fruit.
And is the explanation not in fact another simile? What becomes clear is that only in receptive phases can the “seed†root itself within us, and transform inwardly moving outwards. In the Aramaic, all the words used for the adverse conditions have a root that indicate almost everyday temptations. Generally we are overcome by the lack of readiness, which is also an important message. We are not prepared for the things that happen because we are convinced of the goodness or well meaning of what we are doing.
How often are we confronted with “opposites†which may in fact offer a complete view – but which we reject because we have chosen the other side? All attempts of fundamentalism to make things “absolutely clear†are fanatical and accommodate a dangerous form of pride.
Simone Weil is right when she says, “Grace fills empty spaces, but it can only enter where there is a void to receive it. We must continually suspend the work of the imagination in filling the void within ourselves.”
Shalom