We shouldn’t hurt people’s religious feelings, and Christianity, as I consider it, is simply a religion, and only that. Christianity, like Judaism and Islam, has limitations in its conception of the world and higher philosophy. Its not surprising if we look at the time and place Christianity developed, and probably it is a great religion if we consider these factors. These religions (Islam, Judaism, and Christianity), being western religions, lack some of the deep philosophical background of the eastern systems and schools. Being a Christian today in this century is not a problem, but the problem is limiting oneself to only the statements of the Bible and the Magisterium. 
i have decided to stop trashing the bible in the future.
it is illogical to me, so i personally hate it.
but I have to consider that it gives other people hope and purpose, makes them feel special. So never on this site will i trash it again, only so that i will not injure the feelings of fellow humans. 
Absolutely right. Good decision. =D> Also check the post about Monism. You may find it interesting. LOL (maybe).
my guess is that your saying the results justify the means,… and in that case buddhism seems to bring about
What this deep background achieved in your mind has yet to be defined. Do they have a better crime rate? Or maybe their views on sex allow less sex crimes?
Well, heres nothing to be said that is new, its not an opinion, but a fact that Asian countries are less prone to obsession with sexuality, irregular sexuality and sexual crimes. Even open discussion of sex is taboo in most Asian countries, and premarital and extramarital sex is a horror, and Times 2005 Crime Rates shows that most of the Asian countries had comparatively lower sexual crime rates than USA and most western countries. The problem with most of the traditional western thought systems, be it Christianity or Judaism, is that they consider the daughter of one man the legitimitate sexual property of another man (just only validate it by the ritual of marriage), while in Asia, before marriage, a woman is solely a member of her father’s family and an individual, and no one has the right to think of her as someone’s property (even if it be so in the future). Theres no such statement in the eastern philosophies that, “for the man have I created the woman”. Its true that the westerner has been more enlightened since the renaissanse, but the ingrained attitude of centuries do have a driving effect on the present western concept of sex, the popular attitude, and formulation of government laws.
In India there are strict social rules concerning sex and marriage, which generally protect the right of women, especially her virginity and integrity. The western “freedom” in sex generally is favourable to man and his quest to take virginity rather than protecting it. The rise of massive pornographic institutions in the west is an example, which is affecting other parts of the world too. Pornography simply is an expression of sexual dominance and leads to sexual crimes. In China, due to the influx of some of the western marxist philosophy, the culture has lost some of its original values, but still in the field of psychological depth and morality, they do surpass the general westerner. And about other crime rates, such as murder and theft, I have to say that none of the Asian countries today has Buddhism as their official system. Most such Asian countries were colonized by Europeans and thus lost many of their originality. Thus in the spheres of mind, the West is lacking, even though in material spheres, they are worthy of praise. I would blame these problems not on the westerner, but their very root, their simple material view of the world, and a failure to grasp the higher modes of the mind and philosophy, which are prevalent in the East. Comments please.
xx00002,
I’ve known a variety of people from India and enjoy watching Indian TV programs here in the US. It is my understanding that child prostitution is a regular thing in major cities that contain a large number to poor people.
In one program that I saw about it the children are standing right out on the streets. You can trust me when I say that this is not happening in the US>
Lets go for the hard facts:
- Youve known a variety of people from India. Thats great. And yes, there are “VARIETIES” of people in India, there are Christians too.
- Prostituion is something that is present almost everywhere (except may be in some very strict countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran).
- The general tendency towards prostitution is far less in India than most western countries. Its because the Indians have an attitude of non-acceptence of irregular sexuality, and is strict about sexual matters. (Its so from ancient times, please read the rules in Kama Sutra
) - Prostitution in India only exists among the poor background in India, because they don’t have education, culture, and vastly rely on the belly for survival (Btw, India was a rich country once, but had their resources exploited by the colonial west).
- Prostituion is mostly common in tourist spots, like Goa, where western tourists come to visit. It is widely known that the practice of prostituion in India was introduced by the Portuguese via Goa.
- Most of the prostitutes are outcast of society, and if you visit Goa, you will see its mainly Christian (Nazranite) single women (single nurses, garments workers, and even nuns!) who are going for this profession.
- Even then the government very stricly oversees this matter and sexual crimes in India, and Asia in general, as I have stated in previous posts, is very low compared to the western countries and countries of western influences like South Africa.
The west is sometimes slightly misinformed by their media about the east. - What youv’e stated is your opinion which you gatherred from watching TV (or so you say), but we are always aiming to go for the hard facts.
Btw, why not start a sepearte thread like “Mind and Philosophy in East and West, a critical analysis”? It may be interesting. I think we are slightly deviating from the topic of the thread aren’t we?
“asian countries are less prone to obsession with sexuality”
You said that, but then go on to tell us that prostitution is common, and I will add child prostitution at that.
You mention that it is common in poor areas. Well, can we guess as to whom is making all of the purchases?
I’m a huge fan of many eastern ideas but the fact is that some of them lend themselves to the exploitation of others and the development of a throw away mentality towards certain humans.
Don’t get me wrong:
- I didn’t say that prostitution is “common” in Asia, I said its “exists”, to some extent, almost everywhere.
- In India prostitution is less than in many western and west influenced countries. Its infact very less.
- I also said that Govt. takes strong measures against things like child prostitution.
- Since there is prostition everywhere, it also means that everywhere there are some customers too. We just generalise the intensity of these things by taking into consideration the number of people or quantitative measure of how commonplace it is in a region or continents or part of the world, etc. Here I said in East there is very less tendency for these things than in the west.
- My general purpose was not to underestimate the west, I really appreciate the advancement in human society that may not have been possible without the west, so don’t get me wrong. Its against the basic matrialist western philosophies that I was putting my opinion about, since i believe that these loop holes in western thought have already affected negatively and may be severe to human life and condition in the future too. So its an arguement at the intellectual level, by which i wish too emphasize the role of a balanced thought of both material and ideal aspect. And its not true that generally eastern philosophers belittle wester philosophers rather they point out factual problems in western philosophy that need to be reformed for the sake of mankind. Its an intellectual pursuit. And if there are people that belittle the west simply out of envy or arrogance, I am not among them.
So you are saying that the prints that were available at time of contact were not, indeed, pornography? I’d say Asia had a leg up on the west on that one.
And when you mention eastern philosophers, who, in particular do you mean? Hopefully not some neo-hippy interpretation of Buddhism . . .
Ok its not clear who you are referring the first paragraph to, and its not also clear what you are referring to, so i won’t comment regarding it.
If the second paragraph is pointed towards me, i would say, when I use the term eastern philosophers i usually refer to eastern philosophers in general, or majority of them. I am not referring to what they individually believe, but their approach which has some common eastern aspects if considered generally.
So, there is that strong of an east/west divide? So Xunzi has less in common with Hobbes than he does with Laozi? Confucius’s idea of the mean has more in common with Nagarjuna than Aristotle? And, of course, Nietzsche wasn’t influenced by Zhuangzi at all . . .
To lump eastern philosophy together is silly, it is far to varied and rich a tradition to do so. What are these ‘eastern aspects’? And what are ‘western aspects’? I promise you, there will be philosophers on both sides that share more in common with the other.
As to the prints, that was directed at you, and what I am talki ng about are shunga prints from the 1700s. That is pretty hardcore eastern pornography that predates the rise of western pornography.
Ok, so we have established that prostitution is all over the world and where you live as well, so I think that point is nulified.
" lack some of the deep philosophical background of the eastern systems"
What does this mean?
I never really denied that prostitution is all over the world. That was not the question. There is some form of rare things happening everywhere. You cannot generalize with that. What we are discussing is how much the Eastern and Western philosophers influenced their parts of the world respectively. To prove this, we are looking at the intensity of these immoral acts happening in these two respective parts of the world. Its not that there can’t be prostitution in India and China. Almost everywhere there is everything. But in one place its “less” or “not so common”, in other, it is being patronized or is widespread or common. Premarital, extramarital affairs are common in the West. Family ties with parents and siblings are negligible in the west, while its very important in the east allowing for joint families. It would have been understandable if these were discouraged by the intellectuals there. What we rather see happening is that there are lots of so called “proper teen sex” organizations there preaching the proper use of condom, or better level of understanding between the so called couples(?). But what do you see is the trend in India? Premarital affair is a shock here in most common families! Because they have some “VALUES” which seem to be lacking in the west. Were did these values come from? Obviously the mighty minds of the great saint philosophers of the East.
And to my other friend Xun…, the first point you made is that, there is no so called common aspect of philosophy in the East. Maybe you belong to a group of Eastern philosophers that has some conflict with the other groups, and thus overcome with prejudice. For reference do you know that Eastern and Western philosophy is a category in philosophy? If you don’t know that, why not consider these: Most philosophers in the East were Saints and Founders of religion, while most philosophers in the West traditionally were rebels against religion. The point I want to make here is that religion (or morality) and reason were synchronised in the east, while in the west it was not synchronised, due to the lack of proper understanding. And this lack of “all embracing worldviews” characteristic in the east due to which the east developed some balanced societies, the west, which tremendously developed industrially and materially after the renaiscance and and the industrial revolution, couldn’t synchronise their mental aspects accordingly, so a gap grew in the balance, and the western countries are now suffering from the social problems that are almost negligible in the east.
Again my aim here is to show the requirement to develop a balance between the realm of the mind and the matter, which the west needs to borrow from the east or wherever it is (there has been some good philosophers in the west like plato, spinoza, hegel, etc. who had lot in common with the east), and definititely not underestimating the west which cannot be of any philosophical use to anyone with sense.
Oh, and about the Shunga thing:
- Its not considered pronography, which is generally intended to be a way of satisfying the lust, generally of men. It is considered by all who have commented on Shunga, that its an erotic art, like the kama sutra, which is to educate people on the art of sex. Generally such literature and art laid forth rules and arts of sex, prohibiting, like the kama sutra, irregular sex. Thus its an intellectual endeavor, not a one of lust like pornography we see at karasxxx.com.
- Even then, these texts and drawings were studied formally, and there were rules on who should study these, where and how, and for what purpose. These were controlled “studies and reasearch” on sexuality.
- The shunga text thus does not prove the east to be immoral. Rather it proves the east to be containing the rules and art of sex, considering sex as an art, and providing meaning and rules to sex.
First off, with the East/West conflict: While I acknowledge that there is a historical divide of both philosophies, I am very wary of exotification of Eastern philosophies. If I were to generalize Western Philosophy by saying that it dictates a mind/body duality while grappling with Aristole’s legacy in terms of his relation to Christian theology and secular theory, I would be jumped on as incredibly naive. Yet people have no problem painting Eastern philosophy with such a wide brush. Yes, Eastern Philosophy has a shared system that is not the same as Western philosophy due to different founders, and that somewhat results in similarities, I still think that specifics are a much more meaningful system of discourse than generalities.
As to the pornographic art: Eh, a friend of mine once said, “Thank god for porn! If I hadn’t watched so much of it, I wouldn’t have had any idea what to do with a woman the first time I had sex.” Images can be both informative and titilating. Also, restriction to the literati doesn’t mean that it was designed to be purely informative, since they were the luxury class and would be able to afford pornographic art.
Now, I want to clarify that I personally believe pornography to be amoral. I think that is where we are making a break in our understanding, since you think that western-style pornography is morally damaging. I, personally, think that it is western-style sexual morality that is morally damaging. I understand that it stems from a variety of social needs, but I think most of them have since ceased to be a real issue, particularly when coupled with our extended lifespan. I think that following the path that nature set for us with our sexuality is a more healthy way of handling it than reforging it into something perverse.
xx00002 said:
This is simply not true, and as one having a number of Indian friends, and having been to India, I can easily refute this statement.
There are inherently socially stigmatized areas of morallity, especially in eastern cultures, and no, Indians do not speak of sexuality in open discourse. Prostitution is rampant in India. Men often times, and quite openly on public transportation, (ie. buses, trains), grope and fondle women, as it is the belief that it is their right as men. Hence, in India, and a number of other eastern countries I have visited, single females tend to travel in numbers for protection.
Sexual assaults seem lower in those countries, because at the moment a female is considered “damaged goods”, not a virgin, she is unmarryable. Sexual assaults and pedophilia are much less often reported as it is considered more damaging to admit a daughter is no longer a virgin, than it is to suppress the information, and marry her off without anyone knowing.
It is prudent to discover the reality and not just create supposition based upon casual information of social structures.