Yahwism preceded Judaism

Hi there, l think l’ve found your core argument - the above quote ^^^

I don’t see any argument to disprove or even noticeably push back against my idea that monotheism came first, as revealed by a prophet (every nation on earth had at least one, there were over 120,000 in total), then materialism took over aftr each prophet’s death, thus we got idol intercessors / Deism, and eventually Atheism, which is abject materialism. This stands to reason.

What do you have to contradict?

And what makes you think l can’t take the heat? My only objection is when people do not debate, and just assert willy nilly.

By the way, the other stuff l said can be summed up thus: l feel you’re rehashing Am-Way even though you think you’ve separated from that mindset. Also the problem with heterodoxy is when the docs don’t agree - youn have no Furqan. Furqan = Objective Criterion. We call our holy book the Furqan. What is your Furqan? Something you just “feel”? :slight_smile: Response welcome

See above…

YOU SAY: Yahwism, the early form of Israelite religion centred on Yahweh, was a precursor to monotheism

MY REPLY: Says you. Your conclusion is here, right at the beginning, decided: The monotheism was all made up, and so you are about to roll out an Origins story about the story, and as we are making a story about how a story evolved.


YOU SAY: 
, but its development was deeply influenced by broader religious traditions, particularly those that emerged or evolved after the Axial Age (c. 800–200 BCE). The Axial Age saw a profound transformation in religious and philosophical thought across Eurasia, giving rise to new ethical, metaphysical, and theological ideas. Yahwism did not remain static but absorbed, adapted, and reacted to these shifts. Here are some key influences:

MY REPLY: This may be a statistical trick which recalls the vile slanders of Muskrat on the Joe Rogan show, saying the UK government jailed protestors and freed paedophiles. What actually happened was, some lunatic Rwandan immigrant killed some little girls. Rioting erupted, encouraged by shady social media accounts (chiefly on Muskrat's X). Some rioters attacked the police, and some threatened the overthrow of the UK government on social media, and many were neo-Nazis. They were jailed for rioting and not given a suspended sentence because it was a serious matter, being sedition.

A short while later, the government began releasing various prisoners for various fairly low-key offences - a very wide range e.g. assault, drugs etc.

So, before the riots, the UK would jail rioters, looters, violent thugs, arsonists, paedophiles
After the riots: the same

Also after the riots, as a separate matter, the UK began releasing early a tranche of prisoners, including people guilty of looting, rioting, assault, and probably some paedophiles who had not directly abused children etc.

SO, everything happened for every category: jailing, releasing etc.

So Muskrat was effectively correct to say we jailed protestors (he failed to state: violent protestors) and released sex offenders, but he ignored that the opposite was also happening at the same time: as usual we also jailed sex offenders and released violent protestors.


Similarly l could say your author is Arguing from Omission as follows. Here are some major developments in religious practice which fall outside of your Axial Age range and cannot be dismissed as mere outliers IMO:


* In England, Stonehenge was built in six stages between 3000 and 1520 BCE. The site was used for ceremonial purposes beginning about 8000–7000 BCE.
* The Ziggurat of Ur was built during the Early Bronze Age (21st century BC) but had crumbled to ruins by the 6th century BCE
* Ikhnaton / Akhenaten, the reviver of a pseudo-monotheism of the Sun deity in Egypt: He was born in Egypt's 18th Dynasty at some point in the mid-14th century BCE.

These are just examples off the top of my head.

Perhaps your Axial Age could be explained as the increase in cross-cultural communication that comes with progress in transport, and all in the wake of the Hellenism of Alexander the Great. 


YOU THEN SAY:

  1. Zoroastrian Dualism and Ethical Monotheism

    The Persian Empire’s adoption of Zoroastrianism (from the 6th century BCE onward) introduced strong ethical dualism, where Ahura Mazda was the supreme god of truth, opposed by Angra Mainyu, the force of falsehood.
    While Yahwism already acknowledged Yahweh as the supreme deity, exposure to Persian ideas during the Babylonian Exile (6th century BCE) may have reinforced a moral structure of divine justice, the afterlife, and cosmic struggle.
    The Hebrew Bible, especially post-exilic texts like Isaiah 45, presents Yahweh as the sole divine force controlling both good and evil, echoing Zoroastrian influence.

MY REPLY:
I’m sorry but this is very simplistic. You say Culture X had Ideas A, B, and C.
Culture Y had ideas B & C and only B & C.
Culture X spent time in the lands of Culture Y.
Therefore Culture Y imparted B & C to Culture X.

You ignore that implicit in Idea A, was also Ideas B & C. I mean, you actually think people need to travel thousands of miles to get an idea, to finish a sentence, to reach a logical conclusion. This is simplistic.



YOU SAY:

2. Greek Rationalism and the Philosophical Turn

    After Alexander the Great’s conquests (4th century BCE), Hellenistic philosophy introduced rationalist and universalist perspectives, leading to more abstract theological reflections.
    The concept of God as an ineffable, transcendent being in later Jewish thought (e.g., Philo of Alexandria) reflects Greek metaphysical speculation about the “One” or the “Prime Mover.”
    Some scholars argue that the shift from a personal, anthropomorphic Yahweh to a more philosophical monotheism was influenced by Greek ideas of divinity as ultimate rationality.


MY REPLY:

Who ever said Yahweh was originally anthropomorphic?
I also note you gloss over what might easily explain away the Axial Age: The empire of Alexander.
And as stated earlier, can Monotheism not itself conclude that God is One and the First Cause? It can easily be concluded with logic and reason. 


YOU THEN SAY:

  1. Buddhist and Hindu Influences on Universal Ethics

    While direct interaction was limited, the Axial Age shift in India saw Buddhism and Upanishadic Hinduism emphasize universal ethics, moral law (Dharma), and transcendence.
    The Jewish concept of a covenantal moral order, where Yahweh demands ethical behaviour beyond ritual sacrifice, parallels developments in other Axial Age traditions.
    The Book of Job, for instance, presents a theodicy that questions divine justice, much like Hindu and Buddhist reflections on suffering and karma.

MY REPLY
Buddhism falls within your Axial Age but please understand: Hinduism goes back at least to 3000 BCE, and the Upanishads stretch from around 1500 BCE to around 400BCE (the time of Buddhism). Moreover, Hinduism was never a formal religion until, l’d say, the recent political Partition of India after WW2.

Also, why focus on the Upanishads, what about the Vedas.
And do you see how murky the timelines are? It’s very hard to give dates to these things.

And once again, you repeat the fatal flaw, that Idea A cannot naturally lead to Ideas B & C, instead, Culture X that had Ideas A, B & C, had to interact with Culture Y that had Ideas B & C, and there must have been a transfer, arbitrarily from Y to X, of B & C.



YOU THEN SAY:

4. Egyptian and Canaanite Religious Syncretism

    Before the Axial Age, Egyptian monotheistic experiments (like Akhenaten’s worship of Aten) and Canaanite traditions had already shaped Yahwism.
    The rejection of polytheism in Deuteronomy and the Prophets may have been a polemical reaction to both Canaanite religion and broader syncretic trends in the Persian and Hellenistic periods.



MY REPLY: OK so you admit that Akhenaten's revolution occurred outside of the Axial Age - but gloss over it all the same! Unbelievable.

Worse, you even tack it onto "Yahweh-ism" whatever that really is, and l suspect as it's a made-up name, allsorts of things can be tacked onto it, as per your author's desire.

This is all happening in your author's mind, my friend. And the more your author delves, the weirder it looks, that you need to MIGRATE, MIGRATE, MIGRATE, just for Idea A to give rise to Ideas B & C.

You could have just sat in the shade on a deck chair and derived Ideas B & C from Idea A all within an hour. One hour. No need for Upanishads, no Akhenaten. 


YOU THEN SAY:

  1. The Apocalyptic Shift and Messianism

    The influence of Persian and Hellenistic thought helped develop Jewish apocalypticism—ideas about the end of history, divine judgment, and messianic redemption.
    Texts like Daniel (written in the 2nd century BCE) reflect Persian eschatology and Greek influences, depicting a struggle between divine and earthly forces that would culminate in Yahweh’s ultimate victory.

MY REPLY: Okay? That’s just the author’s stipulation. Oh he did pull out one firm kinda date: Daniel written 2nd C. BCE! Woop woop. Daniel. Woop. In yer face doubters, haters. Daniel - 2nd Century BCE!

Forget a person being able to reason, and as such, being able to conclude these simple concepts in an hour while sat on a deckchair with some juice on a hot day. No, we travel east, west, 5000 miles, 500 farsangs, a cubit here or there, to Persia, India, Egypt. Doubt me? How about Daniel then! 2nd Century BCE!



YOU THEN SAY:


Conclusion

Yahwism was neither isolated nor static; it evolved through interactions with Persian dualism, Greek rationalism, Indian ethical thought, and Near Eastern traditions. The movement toward strict monotheism, ethical universalism, and a transcendent God reflects a global religious shift where ideas circulated across cultures during and after the Axial Age. This paved the way for later developments in Rabbinic Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.



MY REPLY:

Non Sequitur
Circular Reasoning
Argument from Omission
etc.


Sir: I hope you find what you are seeking but please, be stringent, argue against yourself, and recognise unfalsifiable concepts and treat them as such. Otherwise you become just another revisionist speeding away from the mainstream. Mainstream isn’t necessarily correct but it’s mainstream for a reason.

Please note: This is not an absolute claim. It’s a hypothesis based on analysis of the preponderance of archeological and textual evidence at this time.

Search Labs | AI Overview

Yes, Yahwism evolved into Judaism, and is the basis for the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Explanation

  • Yahwism

The worship of Yahweh, a deity originally worshipped by the Midianites in the Arabian Desert. The Israelites and Judahites adopted Yahweh as their national god.

  • Second Temple Judaism

The Yahwist religion coalesced into Second Temple Judaism after the Babylonian captivity in the 4th century BCE.

  • Monotheism

During the Second Temple Period, Judaism was revised to establish monotheism, the belief in one deity.

  • Modern Judaism

The modern ethnic religion of Judaism is based on Second Temple Judaism.

  • Christianity

Christianity adopted the monotheism of the Hebrew Scriptures and continues to venerate Yahweh, who is now known as Jehovah and “God”.

  • Islam

Islam developed the deity Allah (“the God”) beginning in the 7th century CE.

The Torah explains the origins of the Jewish faith, and states that God first revealed himself to Abraham, who is known as the founder of Judaism.

———————————-

One hypothesis with evidentiary support is the Midianite hypothesis.

Search Labs | AI Overview

The Midianite hypothesis, also known as the Kenite-Midianite hypothesis, is a theory about the origins of the deity Yahweh. It suggests that Yahweh originated with the Kenites, a nomadic tribe in the area of Midian.

Evidence for the hypothesis:

  • Moses’ marriage: Moses married the daughter of a Midianite priest
  • Old poetry: Yahweh fought wars from the southern wilderness
  • Egyptian texts: The Egyptians called the region “the land of the Shasu, YHW”
  • Archaeology: The Qurayyah oasis in northwest Saudi Arabia may have been the capital of the Midianite kingdom

Impact of the hypothesis

The hypothesis affects how people understand the story of Genesis. For example, the hypothesis suggests that the story of Adam and Eve’s expulsion from Eden is part of Midianite mythology.

Reception

The hypothesis is not universally accepted, but it has some supporting evidence from archaeology and etymology.

Related reading

  • “The Archaeology of Cult of Ancient Israel’s Southern Neighbors and the Midianite-Kenite Hypothesis” by Juan Manuel Tebes in Entangled Religions
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Indeed, we must acknowledge that the pursuit of truth and the connection with the divine are essential aspects of our human experience, which continues to evolve. Therefore, it’s only natural to observe a concept of God that evolves over time.

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YOU SAY: Please note: This is not an absolute claim. It’s a hypothesis based on analysis of the preponderance of archeological and textual evidence at this time.

Search Labs | AI Overview

I SAY: There is no preponderance. The preponderance is with pure Monotheism within Abrahamic faiths.
I have no idea why you keep citing AI either.

YOU SAY: Yes, Yahwism evolved into Judaism, and is the basis for the Abrahamic religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

I SAY: I’m unsure of the correct word to use for this tactic but l’d call it Circular Reasoning / Begging the Question.

You’ve created “Yahwism”. Therefore Yahwism exists. You then discover … wait for it … evidence of Yahwism!

This is like my saying that Sauron was originally a Hobbit, as evidenced by various fanfictions clearly showing that Odo Bracegirdle, or in some instances Farmer Proudfoot, was corrupted by the Ring and became a Darklord.

The Ring caused Hobbits to be “Sauromorphed”. So, there is a preponderance of accounts whereby Hobbits have Sauromorphed. Sauromorphing likely happened around 1985-1990, but may have occurred as late as 2016, because Christopher Tolkien was in Oxford that year to receive the Bodley Medal, and he would have crossed paths with Professor Mary Beard at the same awards. She was a professor in Classics and thus there would have been a transfer of the concept of ZOOMORPHING in Greek Myth, to the Middle Earth mythos.

Next …

YOU SAY:

Yahwism

The worship of Yahweh, a deity originally worshipped by the Midianites in the Arabian Desert. The Israelites and Judahites adopted Yahweh as their national god.

Second Temple Judaism

The Yahwist religion coalesced into Second Temple Judaism after the Babylonian captivity in the 4th century BCE.

Monotheism

During the Second Temple Period, Judaism was revised to establish monotheism, the belief in one deity.

I SAY: I’ve already covered this. There is a push-pull between Materialistic vs. Spiritual zeitgeists. At the time of Prophets, Monotheism was restored. After the prophets left, the materialists would resurge and set up idol-intercessors, with attendant priesthoods, sacred groves, donation pots, etc. etc.

I’ve also explained that polytheism has never generated any Prophets. That’s because the ORIGINAL MESSAGE always came from Montheistic Prophets, who are the ONLY Prophets except perhaps in the case of Zoroaster, who let’s face it, is lost in the mists of time, like 99.9% of the Yahwist hypothesis’s elements.

YOU SAY:

Islam

Islam developed the deity Allah (“the God”) beginning in the 7th century CE.

The Torah explains the origins of the Jewish faith, and states that God first revealed himself to Abraham, who is known as the founder of Judaism.

I SAY:

OH MY GOSH. Have you any idea how hard it was for the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him?

Think of the ENTIRE Alien / Aliens franchise. Think of the turmoil Ripley endured from start to finish. Basically that’s the average Prophet’s life, especially Muhammad’s, Jesus’s and Moses’s. I wouldn’t wish that on anybody. Living in constant fear of being murdered by the polytheists, and being confronted with terrifying beings, both Good and Evil (the Prophet Muhammad tried to kill himself when he first saw Gabriel in his terrifying glory, he could’t accept that he was now a prophet).

Also you completely ignore what the Qur’an ITSELF SAYS about polytheism, and thus you bypass what it offers by way of PRIMARY EVIDENCE. This is Argument from Omission, your go-to Fallacy.

The Qur’an explains that the Polytheists will always answer that Allah created everything.
The Qur’an explains that the Polytheists ascribed wives to Allah (l think by mudering female babies, burying them alive, and dedicating them to become wives of the Creator?). The Qur’an asks them if people’s daughters are for Allah and their sons are for themselves?
The Qur’an explains that nevertheless, the Polytheists scoff at the idea of resurrection and an afterlife.
The Qur’an teaches that Polytheists never produced a prophet
The Qur’an teaches that evil-doers would just use divine revelation as a pattern for evil, by doing its opposite, because they themselves had no clue.

This shows that as far as Montheism is concerned, Monotheism came first. Idol-intercessors then came about after the prophets died (often murdered by their people). This was a state of Deism, such that people still believed in God, but for them God was just a really powerful entity WITHIN THE UNIVERSE. No longer supreme.

The same applied to Israel / Canaan. You are just picking out examples when Monotheism degenerated into Henotheism etc. and saying the degenerate form was the ORIGINAL. This is baseless in the face of what l keep telling you, above. About how Monotheism denegerates into Polytheism / Deism, which any evidence of Henotheism you cite, would be supportive of. That’s right, your evidence supports the Montheistic theory.

You go as far as making it sound so easy, you now have the Prophet Muhammad arbitrarily deciding to give polytheism a lil tweak and turn it into monotheism - yay!
You clearly have NO IDEA (best case) or are WILFULLY IGNORANT of how hard it was for Muhammad to instate Monotheism in a city full of proud wealthy Polytheists, their power centre in all of Arabia Felix. It could only have happened if it was genuine, nobody would be so foolish as to invent Monotheism in Pagantown.

YOU THEN SAY:

One hypothesis with evidentiary support is the Midianite hypothesis.

Search Labs | AI Overview

The Midianite hypothesis, also known as the Kenite-Midianite hypothesis, is a theory about the origins of the deity Yahweh. It suggests that Yahweh originated with the Kenites, a nomadic tribe in the area of Midian.

Evidence for the hypothesis:

Moses’ marriage: Moses married the daughter of a Midianite priest
Old poetry: Yahweh fought wars from the southern wilderness
Egyptian texts: The Egyptians called the region “the land of the Shasu, YHW”
Archaeology: The Qurayyah oasis in northwest Saudi Arabia may have been the capital of the Midianite kingdom

Impact of the hypothesis

The hypothesis affects how people understand the story of Genesis. For example, the hypothesis suggests that the story of Adam and Eve’s expulsion from Eden is part of Midianite mythology.

Reception

The hypothesis is not universally accepted, but it has some supporting evidence from archaeology and etymology.

Related reading

“The Archaeology of Cult of Ancient Israel’s Southern Neighbors and the Midianite-Kenite Hypothesis” by Juan Manuel Tebes in Entangled Religions

I SAY: You clearly don’t even understand what YHWH / YHW means. I am not going to tell you because l want you to be confronted with the fact that you are a stranger to this lore.

There was probably no “Land of Shasu, YHW”. There was probably no old poetry of Yahweh fighting wars in the wilderness, whatever that could possibly entail.

The only possibly true thing there was that the northwest of Saudi Arabia likely was the centre of the Midianite Kingdom, a place called Ar-Rass. But YOU have no idea why l would say that, because YOU are a stranger to their world, as evidenced by your rambling skeletal threadbare baseless hypotheses.

I ALSO SAY: *Sauromorphing is further evidenced in the life of DOSTOEVSKY, who was sent to a Siberian prison camp, which was much like a small Hobbit settlement. The harsh conditions there focused him, and his talent for writing was like Sauron’s ring, and thus he was transformed, he was SAUROMORPHED. *

No, it’s utterly baseless.

You’re wasting your time. There’s as much reason to believe Sauromorphing as your Yahwist theory.

Note how l acknowledge the “YAHWIST” revisionist posters’ claims and deconstruct them point by point, while they ignore my points.

Argument from Omission.

This whole thread has been discussing this subject for some time, and since then a whole library of books, notably also from Jewish historians, have shown us a historical development that is highly plausible. I admit that I see supernatural explanations with scepticism.

I’m afraid your examples do not have any bearing on my observations and therefore I have pushed them to one side.

The Stonehenge has no bearing on the developments of the Abrahamic tradition.

The Ziggurat of Ur may have crumbled, but ideas live on.

I wrote “Before the Axial Age, Egyptian monotheistic experiments (like Akhenaten’s worship of Aten) and Canaanite traditions had already shaped Yahwism.”

Yes, of course. What do expect me to do? Write a book and serialise chapters on a discussion forum? Or quote extensively from other works?

I think that we have to look at the process here. I was a Christian many years ago because I agreed with the narrative from which I took my understanding of the world. Our language in the West is culturally very influenced by the Christian story, and so, without becoming fundamentalist in my approach, I respected the tradition and, most important, chose it as mine.

As time went on, and I followed what I perceived as a calling, I was confronted by life changing experiences, inspirational people, and new perspectives that expanded my worldview. I also expanded my reading experience, understanding how stories change our lives, and how the inspiration that I took from the Bible could also be taken from other literary sources and traditions. Professionally, I found the Eightfold Path of Buddhism a helpful guide, and I read the Dhammapada (but also the Tao te Ching), and Buddhists I met in Sri Lanka and spoke with, who showed me their country, culture and way of living, convinced me that the exclusivity that the Abrahamic traditions claim was counter effective. It was this aspect that I rejected and still do today.

Since then, I have gained a better understanding of Advaita Vedanta, which is also inspirational, and recognise the flow of ideas that spread between India and China, but also spread into the Mediterranean, and from there into the world, picking up (much like I have) inspirational narratives along the way. Each confrontation changed the narrative in some way, sometimes it was a paradigm shift.

When you come now and tell me, as you understand it, that God intervened in history, beginning with Abraham and culminating in Muhammad, I can say that in my view, ‘God’ intervened throughout the existence of mankind, because I perceive the divine as the primal consciousness, which traditions say give a “living spirit” to the physical existence, or נפש‎ (nephesh) ‘the breath of life’ instinct in the nostrils of all living beings, and by extension ‘life’, ‘person’ or ‘very self’.

I don’t know whether you could envision this being a poetic way of describing what Hindus call Atman. Could you agree that God’s intervention in history, as you understand it, aligns with this universal presence of divine consciousness?

You are ignoring my pushback. I have clearly given that Yahwism is plucking data points out of the murky past, with murky arbitrariness, such that you can make up anything out of the primeval mire of ancient history especially the way you’ve presented it.

Appeal to Authority (“l referenced many books earlier, wooh”) is a fallacy here because the books are repeating your Begging the Question / Circular Logic fallacy of inventing Yahwism as a term and THEN lo! Discovering Yahwism. I could do the same thing with Hobbits morphing into the Dark Lord, a process known as Sauromorphing, which has a surprising amount of evidence and l could point you to Christopher Tolkien’s continuation works and Terry Pratchett’s Discworld.

You either balk at and turn away - or plain flee the interview - when l point out the elephant in the room: Idea A could naturally lead to Idea B and then Idea C, within the space of 1 hour, if you’re sat in a deckchair with some juice on a hot day. Why would anyone need merging / transmission between Monotheists and Gnostic Dualists and Brahminist Henotheists etc. etc. etc. over the space of thousands of miles and a thousand years? Why? Why? You’re just making stuff up, please admit it. YOu’re namedropping civilisations for credibility, when in fact the conclusions of Monotheism are natural conclusions and they do not require the contact and copying from other more poly- beliefs that you would ascribe.

And so what if you later mention Ikhnaton? The point is, even when you acknowledge Ikhnaton, you arbitrarily paint kerb-lines to circle around it and avoid the issue that this is one of very many data points that fall outside of the Axial Age, i.e. my main point again: that you are aribtarily picking data points to suit your cause - this is the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.

It is very pitiable to see you say no, wait, stop hey come on man, stop. Wait, because you see, ole Ikhnaton, he influenced them isrilites so he did and so YAHWISM got created. Okay, listen, l’m done.

Can we just say you’ve won the debate?

It does’t matter to me that you were once Christian or that you met nice people somewhere. I meet nice people everywhere and l often pray for them.

I flee from people that invent lies about God though - that includes claims with no evidence. Gosh, l mean, what do you get out of it? Please.

You fail to understand the process and are caught up in the doctrinal influences of your life. As I said, I chose to be a Christian, and then, at key moments in my life, I grew out of it, respecting its influence on me, but rejecting its exclusive claim. I respect Christians, Moslems, Jews and all the other believers, but I see a natural development taking place, not a supernatural one.

If there is anything that could be called “supernatural”, it is, as I have said, the universal presence of ‘divine’ consciousness, in whom “we live and move and have our being.” I acknowledge the aspiration of monotheism to regard this as God, and have a high regard for the humility it invokes. I respect the call of these traditions to contrition, a feeling of responsibility for wrongdoing because humanity has certainly missed the mark in my view.

But from the benefit of reviewing history, religion hasn’t made people better, but it has shown us our hypocrisy better than anything else I know. This is probably why it has become unpopular in Europe, where religious hypocrisy was so destructive. The problem is, that hypocrisy doesn’t go away by rejecting the source that points it out to us.

In the end, we need to work on becoming people in whom humility and compassion spontaneously arise in interaction with our fellow human beings, our neighbours, and our sisters and brothers. We are too fallible to claim the right to punish others or declare judgement on them. The sources of wisdom pointing us to this are manifold.

Historical facts and evidence are what matter here.

“A divine being must have a definite enough quality to attract and maintain worshipers, and yet at the same time such a God cannot be so rigid or it’s cult so conservative that it cannot endure significant adaptation and change. The only surety of our mundane world. Too far in one direction makes a God unappealing, too far in the other dooms them, given religious fashion and change frankly. And surely through the eons some gods have adapted, and many gods have gone extinct.”

Right. On this thread we are mostly analyzing historical evidence that seems to show that the concept of God evolved.

Fundamentalist Christianity attempted to deal with the internal evidence of a changing concept of God by postulating “dispensationalism”. This meant that God governed in different ways at different periods. For example, the Old Testament and the New Testament represent two such periods.

On the other hand, the Bible teaches that God is unchanging. For example, “ James 1:17 says:

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of changing.

So, the modern cultural evolutionary concept that it is the human conception of God that changes, and not the God as God makes sense.

Some historians have argued that ancient Israel originally practiced a form of monolatry or henotheism.[7]Old Testament scholar John Daysuggests that angels in Judaism are what became of the other gods once monotheism took over Israel.[8] John McKenzie has stated: “In the ancient Near East the existence of divine beings was universally accepted without questions. […] The question was not whether there is only one elohim, but whether there is any elohim like Yahweh.”[9]

Indeed @felix_dakat the supposedly unchanging Christian God has, historically and culturally, undergone significant changes.

This phenomenon brings to mind the saying: ‘Man created God in his own image and likeness.’

The scholar Nicholas F. Gier also noted the remnants of polytheism in the Hebrew Bible. I would argue that this is part of a widespread transition from animism to polytheism to monotheism. As societies became more organized and power became centralized, it made more sense to consolidate the Almighty power from hundreds of thousands of divine beings to a dozen, and eventually to one supreme Deity.

Does anyone recall Dukeheim’s research or other hypotheses that explore the correlation between societal formation and theological evolution?

Circular argument: You define the God of Abraham as a changing man-made concept. Then behold! It is shown to have changed! Circular Reasoning / Begging the Question fallacy.

@Bob @felix_dakat I ask that you stop ignoring my objections. This is your modus operandi. You argue, the facts, the objections, be damned. Agument from Omission.

Kindly take me on in the spirit of debate and stop Gish Galloping.

@Bob @felix_dakat Case in point: Please tell me: Do you accept the concept of Sauromorphism on the strength of the evidence l’ve given about JRR Tolkien’s son Christopher Tolkien, Prof. Mary Beard, and Dostoevsky - do you accept that a Hobbit did indeed become a Darklord, at least within the context of the fictional character?

If you reject that, then why do you accept Yahwism?

There is as much evidence for a Hobbit becoming a Darklord as there is for Yahwism. Tell me why you accept one and reject the other. If you accept that the Dark Lord was originally a Hobbit character, then you are reduced to absurdity. If you deny it, yet accept Yahwism, then you are being arbitrary i.e. Cherry Picking Fallacy or similar.

Answer this while l work up to rehashing what l’ve already written to strike your argument out definitively. Again. AND PLEASE STOP VIDEO SLINGING. It is hard work to sit through, write up a transcript, and type up a rebuttal

Being and becoming are a priori categories of the human mind through which we interpret sensory data.
“God” represents the absolute which, indeed is beyond conception.

“I would argue that this is part of a widespread transition from animism to polytheism to monotheism. As societies became more organized and power became centralized, it made more sense to consolidate the Almighty power from hundreds of thousands of divine beings to a dozen, and eventually to one supreme Deity.”

I agree with you. That conception is called monarchial monotheism. It’s hierarchical in structure, implying a transcendent one. Henotheistic societies moved in that direction until they saw the vision of one supreme being over all.

Another tradition seemingly at cross currents with the transcendent sees the divine one as immanent in everything. There are early seeds of this in the Hindu Vedas that flower in the Upanishads where both visions of God unite.

“ In dark night live those for whom the Lord
Is transcendent only; in night darker still, For whom he is immanent only.
But those for whom he is transcendent And immanent cross the sea of death With the immanent and enter into Immortality with the transcendent.
So have we heard from the wise.

Just as human knowledge of reality has steadily grown (evolved) over time, likewise, the concept of God has also evolved (but is woefully lagging behind at the moment).

Indeed, I tried to represent the evolution of our perception of God in a couple of simple illustrations I created many years ago (you may have to double-click on them in order to read the captions)…


You have wasted your time with this misdirection.

I’m a believer in the old idiom: “A picture is worth a thousand words.” In which case, I suggest that the notion of the universal “divine” presence being something “…in whom we live and move and have our being…” (which, of course, is an allusion to a Bible verse), cannot be more accurately represented than what is implied in yet another of my fanciful illustrations…


It is an illustration that also suggests what our ultimate and eternal purpose may be.

Bob, you seem to be a “Pantheist.” Is that an accurate assumption?