...You're not a dick. You're an asshole.(V)

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
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[size=150]All quotes come from alt.atheism and are of public record.

Raven writes:

“Actually, I disagree with Mark K Bilbo on one point. You’re not a dick. You’re an asshole.(V) You are perhaps the most arrogant, egotistical, clueless jerk I’ve ever encountered, on Usenet or off it. You spout off endlessly about Buddhism, while demonstrating that you haven’t the slightest comprehension of it, and continually offer unsolicited advice to others as to how they should live their lives, after being told repeatedly that no one is interested, and that absolutely no one wants to be like you. To use an example within your field of expertise, if you acted the way you do on alt.atheism in a bar, you’d have been punched out in short order. You need serious psychological help.”

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

V:

Thank you for your comments, compliments and the warning Raven.

I can put some of your concerns to rest though, as I do not frequent bars, so am safe in that respect.

I am most gratified with your compliment when you distinguished me being on top of your list.

You see, if I am ‘the opposite’ of Raven and Mark K. Bilbo…I am doing quite well.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: … k_K._Bilbo

Watch you thoughts - they become words Raven.
Watch your words - they become actions Raven.
Watch your actions - they become habits Raven.
Watch your habits - they become character Raven.
Watch your character - it becomes your destiny Raven.

Thoreau said a thousand will strike at the branches of evil and only one will strike at the roots.

Of course, the thousands who are confused and ignorant of the source of the evil will say the one that strikes at the roots of evil is a…clueless jerk…a dick…an asshole.

That is how it has always been throughout history with your kind Raven…sick in mind…sick in body…sick in spirit.

What else can such a person offer to others but…sickness.

The three unwholesome roots of delusions, greed and hate are very basic to a a Buddhist practice.

Out of these three, delusion is the foundational root, for without seeing delusions for what they are, you cannot distinguish the other two unwholesome roots of greed and hate.

As such, you see only what the delusional ‘Gospel According to Raven’ that controls your life allows you to see.

The Greek philosophers knew that when passion rules the mind, that the only job left for reason is that of the subservient task to find cleaver ways to satisfy the passions. They called it “putting passion before reason.” .

I am not a Buddhist, but I do use tools from Buddhism Raven. I am an agnostic freethinker. I make no other claims Raven.

I try to put passions on the back burner and work to put truth up front in my thoughts

I use tools for developing inner peace from any source without prejudice.

My own thoughts about Buddhism can be seen here with a discussion of how I use some of the tools of Buddhism in my life.

jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/ … opic=508.0

The only requirement for such tools is that it be capable of being tested by practical application and that the concept does not exist by means of faith only.

When we try to control others it is s signpost of our own dis-ease Raven.

Over the years I have run into many people that would like to control me, just as you would like to control me Raven.

You destroy your peace in controlling what your ego demands and you have no power to control Raven.

Yet, you are blinded by hate, prejudice and ill will and powerless to see this Raven.

I do mention this to you in hopes of your one day enlightenment Raven.

But alas, I can only plant seeds and have no power to make them sprout.

Whenever we get upset with others, it is good to look at things in perspective of the 3 laws that govern us Raven

All humans answer to:

Man Made Law

Natural Law

Divine Law (for those that believe in the spiritual realm**)

Always remember, if a person’s actions do not violate any of these laws, then it becomes more of a ‘subjective question’ of violation.

When likes and dislikes of actions become subjective, then, making demands on others without a firm foundation in the laws bases our decision in our ego.

As such, the general rule is:

Persons should seek to please themselves with their actions first before they please the ego’s of others.

**for further discussion about spiritual or divine laws that govern us see:

‘Every Atheist Serves Two Gods’ at:

jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/ … opic=342.0

The business of humanism is ‘all our business’ if we with to live life at peace Raven.

I suggest you read the ‘informal creed’ of atheism that discusses this topic.

(Snip)

“An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.”

From:

atheists.org/Atheism/

As such ‘I ask if someone is thirsty’ and needs a drink when I see them parched Raven.

And if I am mistaken, then no harm done. I leave them in peace, I do not force anyone…but I do ask Raven.

I don’t call people a dick or an asshole and work to destroy their inner peace.

Sure, I bring out wrong actions and wrong speech to discuss in public.

Hiding behavior is also a sign of dis-ease Raven.

If we are not talking about ‘trade secrets’ Raven and if you are ashamed to discuss your actions in public…then that says it all about you my friend…sick in body…sick in mind…sick in sprit.

What I say to one can be said to all Raven.

I hide nothing.

When we learn to think about others and the spirit as well as our own needs and we can then see we are all interdependent and not independent with all Raven.

As such, we are our brother’s keeper to some extent - for your sanity is my sanity and my sanity is your sanity Raven. I don’t have time to write a post on this subject right now as I am very busy. But just believe me on this topic Raven.

Once you see this interdependent balance, you will realize that we all share the same breath and no need to practice hatred or develop ill will towards others Raven.

It is much better to develop compassion for others. For as we develop compassion for others we develop peace within Raven.

As James Allen wrote in As a man Thinketh: “To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their possessor.”

This doesn’t mean we have to not be concerned with danger to our well being by any particular group. but, it also reminds us we will never be at peace by fostering hatred for another Raven.

As such, I practice from ANY spiritual tradition without problems or prejudices and readily look for such gifts irrespective of what label they come under.

See:

jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/ … ?topic=4.0

It is your right to not like me and you are free to think about the me as you please Raven.

But, if we are seeking to find the truth about a subject, I find it a good policy to concentrate on principles and not on personalties.

Concentrating on personalties and name calling just fuels the passions and makes it hard to discuss the real issues.

Of course, you have never answered any of my posts otherwise, so the only tool at your disposal is the reply attacking the person instead of attacking the argument.

The Buddhist offer us the eightfold path to direct us in the ‘right’ way to live…if we wish to be at peace.

The eightfold path may not be anything new to you Raven. And to the horror of Mark K. Bilbo who says I repeat things endlessly, I mention it for those that may not be as knowledgeable as you are about Buddhist thought Raven.

  1. Right View
  2. Right Intention
  3. Right Speech
  4. Right Action
  5. Right Livelihood
  6. Right Effort
  7. Right Mindfulness
  8. Right Concentration

Feel free Raven to write me in private to discuss this matter, away from the need of the ego to show off in front of your friends. Once we do that, I think in that relaxed setting we can put passions and hatred on the back burner and get at the truth.

Always remember Raven, we can change our current life, a life that yields us nothing but pain and suffering, into a new life of joy and inner peace. We transform ourselves by the simple action of taking that first step in the opposite direction that we have been headed in for so long…but I can’t take that first step for you my friend.

Good luck,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher[/size]

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Yeah, but have you seen what the Pastafarians have to put up with?

venganza.org/category/hate-mail/

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[size=150]What do you get out of that forum you mentioned?

Sensational language as a novelty only goes so far.

If a forum is too crazy I have to let it go.

At least at alt, some try to send in a few coherent posts.

I ended up at alt,atheism after being banned from all the Christian, Buddhist and other Atheists forums, so that is why I am there.

I learn from all, but still must be choosy as to my teachers.

…my discussion of this topic from an earlier post.

Someone once questioned a statement I had made:

V wrote: “I am grateful for my friends at alt.atheism. And if I can’t study Buddhism with Buddhists after they ban me from their forums, then I study Buddhism with atheists.”

They asked how I can study Buddhism this way.

Well, this is not problem at all.

A Buddhist practice in not in books or limited to any one sangha…a successful Buddhist practice lies within our hearts.

(ooops…the atheists tell me that the heart is only a blood pump…and they are right…so let’s say the successful Buddhist practice emanates from the fabric of our very being…but I guess the atheists will argue we are not made of fabric either!)

Not only are the atheists excellent teachers at Buddhism, they are also equally excellent teachers of the principles of Christianity.

Let me give you a couple of examples my atheist friends helped me with, better than any church service I had ever attended in my prior life when I was Catholic. The atheists were lecturing me on Charity that day. (If you want the lesson in Buddhism then just substitute compassion or metta for the word charitable.)

The atheists were not talking about donating money or giving food to the poor, although such actions also fall under the title of being charitable. The type of charity I am talking about is that of showing simple kindness and courtesy to others.

We were discussing logic at alt.atheism and one of the participants brought up the subject of being more charitable with kindness and leniency when his feelings got hurt by some abusive words sent his way.

Being charitable towards others is something we all seem to forget when our ego gets injected into the equation, and this is especially prone to happen on the net. When we communicate with emails we sometimes write things we would never say in person. In addition, when we write it uses a different part of our brain than when speaking. I find the truth about ‘who a person really is’ comes out best when they write as opposed to speaking. And to top it all off, we see no person that we are hurting with our words, we only see a screen. If we can slow down and review or writing for ‘humility’ and ‘reciprocity’ we can sometimes avoid dispensing pain.

When we invest excessive time and energies in acquiring or building attachments these attachments become veritable extensions of our being and come to define us for ourselves as well as define who we are for others. When these attachments take on this role we become susceptible to pain via these extensions. If the person, place, thing or idea we are attached to gets rebuked it is a personal rebuke on us, if they get damaged or defaced so goes the defacement and damage to our very being.

It is hard to become full detached to ideas, for if we did we would be like a feather floating wherever the wind blew us and would pick up any old idea with no firm grounding of what we perceive as right or wrong. But, we can practice being open minded and look at ideas without prejudice that we instinctively hit ideas with that does not emanate from within our mind. We can take that first step in the opposite direction that we have been heading in for so long by learning to judge other less.

We especially do this with everyone we meet…they get categorized with better or lesser than me type of thinking. When we limit prejudice we can open our minds to truth and peace. And realize that “All deities reside within the human breast,” as Blake wrote and try to show kindness and leniency towards others just as we would like it bestowed on us by our judges.

Here is some background material on this topic of charity from the alt.atheism discussion group.

V:

“How do you use logic to guide your life? I am not specifically referring to logic in atheism, but logic in everyday life. Is logic all that is needed in life? Or something else?”

J responds to V:

It’s useful for thinking, not as a guide but a tool. Try thinking without consciously or unconsciously using logic, and see if any conclusions are justified. To deny logic is self-stultifying. A hammer without a nail is useless. Logic without thought is useless. Nails without a project are useless. Thoughts without a project* are useless. * “project” in this case as used at: plato.stanford.edu/entries/existentialism/ and other writings on existentialism.

G responds to J:

“You appear to be under the impression that the only use for a hammer is for striking nails. And you expect everyone to follow the link and dig through that enormous pile of crap, just to figure out what the fuck you mean? Idiot. If you want people to understand what definition of a word you’re using, there are these things called “dictionaries”…a number of which are online, even.”

J responds to G:

“Of course, analogies are never perfect. I used a hammer two days ago to help a neighbor get his garage door realigned. Do you think I’m an idiot? But the analogy serves, for those who are more charitable than you. Differences of opinion need not include calling people idiots. ”

‘J’ brought up an important reminder to the tool of charitable reciprocity that we can all apply in our lives to develop inner peace. Reciprocity of charity is welcome by almost all people. who does not like kindness bestowed on them? Yes, there are those individuals that are of a sick mental nature that are hell bend for destruction. But if we look at examples of flourishing human specimens, then they do not gravitate towards having hatred and ill will being dished up to them.

When the subject turns to reciprocity, I am reminded of a religious discussion I attended a few years ago where the group was composed of a wide spectrum of theist to atheist. The atheists were lecturing on prejudice and the golden rule that day. When the subject turned towards morals and ethics, one atheist said he ran his life by the golden rule. A theist piped up that the golden rule came from the bible, which made the atheist wince. The atheist seemed to take pride in his self sufficiency and did not like to run his life by anything that came out of the bible. When another atheist said the concept of golden rule came from an earlier source than the bible, then atheist was relieved.

This was a good reminder to me to examine where my guiding light resides?

Is it ego based or truth based?

When the guiding light of this atheist was not grounded in the bible he was happy. But when it came from an area that he did not like, he was upset. How can the same material be used to build a palace by one man, yet only build a hovel for another?

By one spiritual practitioner seeing truth and applying it to live a life at peace. And the other person only seeing prejudice and problems and doing nothing.

Every religion was made by man and as such every religion is imperfect as it is run by man. Despite these imperfections, each religion also has many “perfection’s” within it as well. We can still be open to peace generating tools from any of the religions and spiritual traditions that are available to us if we are serious about being at peace. This requires us to run our life by truth and not by prejudice. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: “Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them” (Matthew 7:12). Nowadays this verse is commonly referred to as “The Golden Rule,” and is more commonly quoted as: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Here are some of the earliest sources for this concept of reciprocity

~1970-1640 BCE “Do for one who may do for you, / That you may cause him thus to do.” - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110, Ancient Egypt, tr. R.B. Parkinson.

  • ~700 BCE “That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another whatever is not good for its own self.” - Dadistan-i-Dinik 94:5, Zoroastrianism.

  • ? BCE “Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others.” - Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29, Zoroastrianism.

  • ~550 BCE “You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD.” - Tanakh, new JPS translation, Leviticus 19:18, Judaism.

  • ~500 BCE “Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.” - Udana-Varga 5:18, Buddhism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

Now, whether you believe in God or believe in Jesus or are an atheist or Buddhist does this wisdom not apply to you? This truth is universal in nature as it is based not on being of a certain religion, other than that of the religion of humanity. In this case, you can adopt a peace generating tool and apply it to your life irrespective of your religious beliefs or lack thereof. I had to chuckle one time when an atheists argued that the golden rule is not perfect, so he said he does not follow it. When I questioned him about what he does follow as well as the state of perfection that applied to his life, all he could do was reply with ad hominem attacks.

If we are waiting for perfection when it comes to spiritual studies we will always be disappointed. Before applying perfection to anything outside of us, we should examine the perfection within us. The nature of humans is that of imperfection, so we must always look towards direction and forget perfection. I heard a story one time in a Yoga lecture that illustrates this point. “Range is of the ego - Form is of the soul.” The only thing we need to be concerned with is how is our form when it comes to our spiritual practice and our life.

Regarding the golden rule? It is more perfect than imperfect, so it is a most useful tool to live a life at peace by. And when we combine it with other tools such as universality, natural law, contrast the greater good with the greater right, etc the synergistic effect is close to perfection as humans can get with this subject. But it takes some thinking and one will not see it without an open mind.

Wisdom for living a life at peace is all around us for the taking. I have no trouble at all studying Christian or Buddhist concepts wherever I find myself…even when the audience is 100% atheists. Many of us get blinded with labels and personal prejudices. Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down, we are headed in a direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well as others peace. As such, I practice from many religious and spiritual traditions without problems or prejudices and readily look for such gifts irrespective of what label they come under - on the contrary I am most grateful wherever I find them. If I am not able to use a concept, I leave it alone, but do not spend my time or energies to beat others down. Do we like to be beaten down?

I saw some paintings in a Japanese museum that showed a cousin of the Buddha being of great power and to show his strength he went up to a baby elephant and pushed it down to the ground. A second painting showed the Buddha helping this baby elephant back up to his feet and the Buddha lifted the elephant high up over his head and said, “It is much better to uplift - than to tear down.” Whether this is a true story or not I do not know. But we can all benefit from uplifting rather than destroying.

I see this predisposition to destruction many times in responses I receive from my posts. The critiques offer much in the line of ‘no goods’ but they seldom do they offer any substantive tools to finding peace. Maybe I do not have it ‘100% right’ but I have it ‘right enough’ to be able to be at peace if I apply these principles. If I waited for perfection, I would never act. I use the tools at hand.

Aristotle ~ “It is the mark of an educated mind to rest satisfied with the degree of precision which the nature of the subject admits and not to seek exactness where only an approximation is possible.”

This being able to ‘rest satisfied’ is something the perfectionists lack and why they will never be at peace until they stop collecting concepts and start using the concepts of peace generations. The atheist I mentioned above demonstrated this with his blanket dismissal of the golden rule since it is not 100% perfect. He could offer no substitutes for the golden rule, all he could do was succumb to personal attacks on me.

We can examine our writing to see what useful tools for finding peace we offer to others it also says a lot about our own practice of generating inner peace. When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner peace promotion. When you practice destroying others peace, you will reap self destruction of inner peace.

We should always he interested in finding truth and peace. If our way is not working then some other way may help. It is good to test and see the results. The bible reminds us of this “Test everything; hold fast to what is good; abstain from every form of evil,” (1 Thess. 5:21) Even if you are an atheist, this concept of testing can be of help to you. For with such tests, ‘the proof of the pudding will be in the eating’ and decisions on how to live will not be left only to your ego, but will be grounded in peace.

What benefits do we derive by being charitable to others?

As James Allen writes…when we hurt others we also hurt ourselves.

“Every thought seed sown or allowed to fall into the mind, and to take root there, produces its own, blossoming sooner or later into act, and bearing its own fruitage of opportunity and circumstance. Good thoughts bear good fruit, bad thoughts bad fruit…Good thoughts and actions can never produce bad results. Bad thoughts and actions can never produce good results. This is but saying that nothing can come from corn but corn, nothing from nettles but nettles. Men understand this law in the natural world, and work with it. But few understand it in the mental and moral world.”

When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner peace promotion…when you practice destroying others peace, you will reap self destruction of inner peace…nothing can come from corn but corn, nothing from nettles but nettles.

I hope you make it a point to practice charity in your life by not forgetting to be charitable to others as you would appreciate charity being bestowed on you.[/size]

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[size=150][b]2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,[/b][/size]

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When in doubt, quote scripture.

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Is this the same person as ravencry4all on this site?

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I dunno. Ask 'em.

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That’s what I was doing!