Zeus and Athena

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
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:slight_smile: I am not sure if this should be posted here or in philosophy? Social science began as knowledge of the gods and humans. Greek mythology is the language of civilization ruled by reason.

I want to point out this is a very Zeus archetype statement…

Zeus is the father of Athena and she would not have power as a goddess if it were not for her father. Athena is strongly in favor of male dominance, because Zues was powerful and could keep things in order. However, Zeus wasn’t sure why his father had created humans, and he really didn’t have much use for them. He forbid that man be given the technology of fire, because he feared with it, man would develop all other technologies and the rivil the gods. Which is indeed what has happened. Like, we have to admire Zeus, because he did have a good head on his shoulders, but…

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley: I can’t help but think of the thread asking about female philosophers and the post explaining they are incapable of abstract thinking, but are good care givers.

Athena, took to caring about human beings, and she taught humans how to make their own laws. Athena, engaged with humans in away Zeus never would. Athena, often spoke with Zeus about humans, and he was very patient with her, because she was his favorite daughter, born from his head, after he had swallowed Athena’s mother. Think about that when thinking social sciences.

Now Athena does care, and she thinks it is important to listen to someone who is displeased, and process this displeasure with reason. While she may not risk offending Zeus, by saying his attitude is pretty thoughtless and it is not a good thing to disgrace people, and destroy their dignity with hurtful, shaming words, and telling them they are so wotrthless they will not be missed, we have had women’s liberation, and this Athena will take risk because she thinks it is pretty important to have awareness of what is happening here.

Is my point of view wrong, or is the Zeus statement damanging to our human relationships? What happens when we shame someone and make them feel unworthy and powerless? What kind of relationship has been established with the Zeus statement? I know I felt like shit when I read it. the attitude is, anyone who doesn’t please Zeus is worth shit. Oh great, that makes these forums an unsafe place to be if there is no reasoning with Zeus.

This might not be philosophy as men understand it, but has human consciousness been in trouble for lack of a strong female voice? Do we want a society where Zeus like people compete against each other and rule by power, or do we want a society the manifest these social rules…

  1. We respect everyone, because we are respectful people. This is objective respect, where the object is to be respectful, not submissive respect, where we judge others and see them as above us, equal to us, or below us, and treat them accordingly.

  2. We act with dignity and protect the dignity of others.

  3. We do all things with integrity. This is beyond, don’t lie, cheat, or steal. It is right next to honorable. Our reputation as an honorable person is on the line, and this bleeds into Socrates explanation of justice, and Plato’s concept of a Republic.

This is social science because reason is the controlling force of the universe and we live in a cause and effect reality. We study social sciences to improve our society. Should Zeus rule without listening to Athena? What about him swallowing his wife because he feared she was going to have a child who would take his place? She was wisdom, and what happens to Zeus’s position in a democracy? What happens if we live by the rules for respect, dignity and integrity and what happens if we do not?

Thanks everyone- you helped me birth an idea I have been struggling with years- I just realized the metaphysics of democracy. :smiley:

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democracy isn’t all that :slight_smile:

welcome to the boards…

-Imp

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Athena is a very interesting choice of a Goddess for the representation of the female, since she is always shown in drag. Her entire character thrives on the irony of a woman’s body with a man’s mind.

I also think one needs to be careful about the relationship between humans and their gods. Zeus is a distant figure. Really, as long as he’s not raping someone or mad at someone for a very particular reason, he leaves humanity alone. In this way, he can be seen as a spirit for freedom and individual choice. Athena, on the other hand, readily interacts with the lives of humans but because of her immortality these interactions often have sever consequences. I am reminded of the scene in the Odyssey when Odysseus asks Athena why she hadn’t helped him more and she more-or-less shrugs and says that she knew he was fated to return to Ithica so why should she have? I mean, what is the difference of a decade to an immortal? Likewise, she serves as an arbiter for man’s fate in the Orestia whereas Zeus (reluctantly, admittedly) allows Saerpedon to die at Troy. Again, look at the Judgment of Paris – Zeus gives the man, the human being, the choice of which future he desires whereas Athena offers Paris wisdom and prowess in battle.

So, I would argue that there is a tension between them, Zeus allows for individual freedom and choice whereas Athena limits the choice of the individual. Zeus interacts with humans as another human would, or at least as a sort of Neitzschean Superman could be seen as acting whereas Athena interacts with human beings as social creatures and as social creatures alone. She plays the role of Mentor, directly guiding.

So, to this, "Is my point of view wrong, or is the Zeus statement damanging to our human relationships? " I would argue that your point of view needs refining. I’m not going to say which side you ought prefer, but I think it is fair to say that Zeus exists in the individual whereas Athena exists in the relationship. But which is better, well, I firmly place myself in favor of a relationship-defined existence but I don’t think everyone agrees with such a view.

“What happens when we shame someone and make them feel unworthy and powerless? What kind of relationship has been established with the Zeus statement?”

What is the difference between that and what Athena does?

"I know I felt like shit when I read it. the attitude is, anyone who doesn’t please Zeus is worth shit. Oh great, that makes these forums an unsafe place to be if there is no reasoning with Zeus. "

Depends on one’s status. While Hera is no equal, she has reasoned with Zeus on multiple occasions. He has also been tricked by a variety of wily mortals.

"This might not be philosophy as men understand it, but has human consciousness been in trouble for lack of a strong female voice? "

I am not sure what this has to do with Athena, since I wouldn’t really call her a “female”. She dresses and acts as a man and is a virgin Goddess. Nothing female about her.

“Do we want a society where Zeus like people compete against each other and rule by power, or do we want a society the manifest these social rules…”

A value statement. Personally, I am in favor of a harmonious society, but I’m not sure the Goddess of War is a good example of harmonious action.

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But Zeus is not in charge as the the God of Abraham is in charge. Zeus is a brother and has sisters and brothers. These are immortals, therefore, they can not kill each other and to end an conflict. True the story of Gods are many and do not all agree with each other, but the philosophers of Athens, advanced to a concept of reason as the controlling force of the universe. All gods and goddesses are equal under the law of the universe. This is how we come to the idea that human beings are equal under the law.

Zeus can not have his way, just because that is he wants. His way must serve the good of others. That is because what rules is not Zeus, but universal law. If he does bad, bad will happen. If he does good, good will happen. How could we have gotten so far from this consciousness?

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there is no “universal” law

-Imp

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What happens when we shame someone and make them feel unworthy and powerless? What kind of relationship has been established with the Zeus statement?

There are a few valid reasons for arguing against the master/slave relationship. I know the bible supports this relationship, and so did Martin Luther. Paradoxically, Martin Luther had an unpleasant conflict with the Pope, and a few people followed him in what became known as the Protestant Reformation Movement.

In the United States we even fought a war opposing the master/slave relationship. First the American Revolution, then the Civil War, and then two world wars.

Some how I get the impression you favor the master/slave, autocratic relationship? Of course many people insist wars are not fought for ideological reasons, a few million people have been motivated to fight wars and support wars, for ideological reasons. It is sad that not only was attacking other countries unjustified, but those loosing their lives today, think they are fighting for democratic values. Yet, almost everyone I have met on the Internet would agree with you and argue against what I am saying. All those lives being lost for nothing, because their nation is not manifesting the democracy they are fighting for.

The democracy of the US was not common. It offered the world a New Social Order. A social order that is not one of masters and slaves. A social order where we are equals, and all have dignity, and non bow to another. Democracy is in imitation of the Gods, sisters and brothers equal under universal law.

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Well hello, we are on line at the same time.

There most certianly is univeral law. A triangle is a triangle on earth and in the heavens. The forces monad, dyad, triad, tetrad, pentad, hexad, heptad, octad, ennead, decad are universal law. Our understanding of the laws of physics may not be perfect, but as far as we know they are universal.

There are also metaphysical laws of cause and effect, and shaming someone, destroying someone’s dignity, or exploiting a person to the degree a full day’s work still leaves the person unable to provide adequately for his/her family, and starting wars, all have negative consequences. Socrates would argue, it may take three generations before the problem is noticeable, but sooner or later, the problem is too bad to ignore. What we have been doing to our society is now intolerable, and it seems only the young who know no better, because they have never experienced anything different, so they can not compare what is with what was, don’t realize that. Many of us are very fearful for our grandchildren and great grandchildren, who may never have a chance to experience the good life we had.

Yes, there are universal laws, and all our laws are suppose to be based on them.

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I beg to differ with you. No one can earn respect from a disrespectful person. Oh I know Ricky, a homeless man, thinks he is earning respect when he uses his fist to fight for his rights, and to be respected, but to many he looks like a pathetic man, not someone who has “earned” respect. Especially when he is enduring the challenges of homelessnesas with a cast on his arm, or a battered face that reveals just how challenging his life is.

Bush, sure isn’t respected by many people, and he is rich and powerful. He is the president of the US, for goodness sake, and a lot of people don’t think he has earned respect.

Far more important is the metaphysics of respect. The universal law of respect. Ricky, the homeless man who is so disrespected he gets thrown out of shelters, thinks he is a valuable human being when he is with me. I treat him the same respect I give to everyone else. I love seeing what happens to a person when they are treated respectfully, especially when they are not accustom to this. On the other hand :evilfun: , I love to knock some people down a few pegs, when they think they are better than others. I used :evilfun: because I know I am not acting on superior morals when I am disrespectful. Often I am acting more like a cur dog, and this dishonors me. :evilfun: I was close with the Hells Angels in LA, California, and have an X son in law in prison. I do understand different codes of respect, and sometimes still get a devilish feeling associated with anti social behavior.

For moral reasons, because of the metaphysics of morality, we respect everyone because we are respectful people. Moral being, to know good manners and the law. That is knowing universal law, or Tao- the way.

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I love your comments. Your knowledge of the myths is to die for. :wink: We must give up who we are to be all that we can be.

I think Athena is every much a woman, and very different from Zeus. You did a marvelous job of explaining their differences and asked some pretty challenging questions. :frowning: but alas, sign, she did have a problem with not being as popular as Aphrodite.

However, mothers are the teachers and defenders of children. Think of the mother bear. I assure you, if you mess with my family, I will metaphormis into a mother bear. When less threatened I will be as the snake, hidden in the cracks of the rock, but ready to strike.

The Statue of Liberty, Lady of Justice and Spirit of America, seen brandishing a sword in a mural of the gods, at the national capital, are different aspects of Athena. She carries the sword of justice, which is also known to us through Holy Grail stories. You do not want to arouse the ire of the goddess, one of many forms of the mother goddess, because when she is displeased, she will not attend to growing things, and the land will be turned to waste until she appeased.

Zeus is a real playboy compared to Athena, and I wasn’t aware of this until your wonderful explanation. A million thoughts are going off in my head right now, and I am so pleased with what you have done to my mind. I really hope this discussion continues and that the thoughts come up again in other post. Now I gotta run.

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While I understand the idea of the mother bear and her kids and what a terrible idea it is to get between them, I am straining to think of a parallel in Greek myth. This could, of course, be seen as a failure on the part of the Greeks . . . I mean, their hatred of women is almost as legendary as their heroes! I can think of stories where Artemis is a righteous bitch and tortures people who view her sexually. I forget his name, but one person accidentally stumbled upon her bathing and so she transformed him into a deer with the mind of a human so he could experience being torn apart by his hounds. She didn’t mess around. And Hera certainly hated women who bore the children of Zeus. She didn’t much care whether they were raped or not, she just hated them as a class. And Aphrodite protected her children and favorites as best she could, but there was still a distance there.

But this distinction becomes quite important when you talk about it with respect to Athena. After all, there is the whole mother/virgin (or whore if she is less-than-virtuous) distinction and Athena is firmly on the virgin side of that scale. Athena cannot act as a mother (in the same way that Artemis cannot) because such actions would go against her character and her role. Hestia comes close to what you are talking about, but her nether-regions were similarly sewn shut. I think the sexism of the Greeks is important here, I mean, really. Hera works, but she is a hen-pecking cow (literally in the case of the cow), and Aphrodite is an adulterous bitch (poor Hephaestus . . .).

I agree with what you are describing with the other women, but those are largely Roman ideas derived from Victoria, who held an importance that Nike never quite managed to (insofar as we can tell, anyway).

I’m not opposed of liberating a myth from its original position (indeed, I think that doing just that is the only way for myths to remain meaningful), but I also think we need to be conscientious when we do so.

I mean, let’s accept the Greek notion of the man/woman divide as well as the fact that a divide exists between gods and man and that the divisions of men do not matter to the gods. So, check out when Athena appears to mortals. She is pretty much always a man, certainly in the Odyssey where she is always a man to mortals.

It’s good, keep working with it. I’m just throwing out ideas here.

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-Imp

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Dear Xunzian,

You are great. You know so much more about mythology than I do. My brain is way too weak to remember so much. That said, the books, “Goddesses in Every Woman” and “Gods in Every Man” are a psychiatrist explanations of the gods and goddesses as archetypes. I am not at home so I can’t check the books for the authors name, but she is female, and she explains how each archetype changes over the years, and is shaped by the events in his/her life. These are very insightful books.

I think the archetypes are accurate to life. However, we are sometimes a mix of gods or goddesses, and sometimes one will be more dominate in lives than another. As long as I was raising children, I was Demeter big time, and my daughter was Demeter’s daughter stolen by Hades. I am fascinated by how accurate the archtypes are.

I picked up Athena for political reasons, related to being a mother. I will surely explain this in other post, but don’t want to mess this one up with that explanation. And oh, I can identify with wanting to a man at times for political reasons, and the not beginning seen nude is a power issue. You are so good, my spirit is flying around the room, in shear joy.

Athena

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Excuse me, Impenitent. I am having a hard time understanding your communications. Color coding would help separate who said what, and I wish we had that function. Separating who says what with quote bracketing is helpful. But none of this as important as as this question-
Did you say you choose not to respect me?

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Athena’s male qualities. I think Athena presenting herself as a male when dealing with humans, says a lot about reality. I think this has much to do with the disagreement about if respect is objective our subjective. It might also involve the difference in how male and female brains are organically different, and why the game Civilizations accredits a goddess with giving us civilization, not a god.

Shall we go with the goddess who teaches men to make their own laws, and Zeus the playboy, or the God of Abraham who is arbitary and does as he please, depending on if He is pleased or not. What is it that leads men to respect anyone? A show of power, right? When someone has a small frame and a soft voice, and does not have the power to kill with thunderbolts or earthquakes, this someone is lacking the qualities that males “respect”. Therefore, when Athena appears to men, she must appear not only as a male, but a strong male who is also tall. She must look like some who can win in a wrestling match or fist fight, and be physically attractive in other ways as well, such as facial features. For some reason, people are okay with male gods being complete assholes, as long as they are attractive and have power, they are worshipped.

I think a bit of resentment can come out of this, resulting in unpleasant female behaviors, such as being a bitch. I was a bitch when a public forum was closed to homeless men. I had entered with them, and had no intentions of doing more than being silently supportive of them. However, when they were refused the right to speak, I went off in an A one female, bitch rant. This stopped the meeting, our government representatives left the room for a private conference and returned with the announcement that there would be future meetings. I did a lot of humilating, circus freak stuff when advocating for the homeless, and it really pissed me off, because there was really not an opportunity to reason with the people who really mattered. Before the power people were open to social justice, the public had to be mobilized, and the way to do this was make our actions “newsworthy”, so the general public would realize there is a problem that is a problem to them. That is, acting out to get the attention necessary to changing attitudes and politics. Okay, this is the female position in life, in general. Women’s liberation has not ended the problem. As someone pointed out, s/he chooses not to respect me, and now I must do a power play if there is any hope of gaining this person’s respect. Which brings me to Athena turning a man into a deer with consciousness of man. :evilfun:

Athena, had to over react to being seen nude, because she had to display her power, to gain respect. As the story of Jesus turning over tables in front of the temple, is also a display of power. I would love to converse with the author of Athena’s story. How meaningful to turn the man into a hunted deer with human consciousness. This is to be aware of being relatively powerless to defend oneself and ones self interest. This is also power to defend one’s children against the male thoughtlessness that left women and children to starve, and for centuries denied women the power to do anything about this reality, except act out and hope a male took up her cause.

:slight_smile: :evilfun: One of my favorite professors, called me a castrating bitch. This discussion is leading to appreciation of how complimenting that statement was. I would love to be a soft and pretty women, dependent on a man, but this would have to be one hell of guy, and there just aren’t many of them. He would have to be a Zeus who can achieve what I want acheived, but also have the qualities of Apollo and Adonius and a little Pan would be nice. :sunglasses:

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I said respect is earned…

-Imp

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I may have gotten this wrong, but I said, “No one can earn respect from a disrespectful person”. And you said, "you weren’t getting it anyway… "

That means, you have decided not to respect me? Correct me if I am wrong.

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Heh, I agree with a great deal of what you say. But, I do think archetypically it makes sense for it to have been a female goddess that gave the gift of civilization. Joseph Campbell wrote and spoke about how the “male” world is the world of achievement whereas the “female” world is the world of relationships. And what is civilization but a manifestation of relationships?

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corrected with all due respect :slight_smile:

-Imp

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You are such a well informed person, and such a breath of fresh air. I am having a huge realization that my "social problem’ was trying to have discussions with people who are not familiar to the subjects and thoughts that interest me. People who are into politics, seem to be power people, either Zeus archetypes or followers of Zeus. What an awe insight into the stories of Athena and her struggles to be accepted when Aphrodite was much more appealing than she, and without Zeus she had no power. I never before realized the huge gulf between civilization and politics, men and women. Thank you so incredible much. Your insight is a huge blessing to me.

Yes, I know Joseph Campbell, and also the men are from Mars and women from Venus explanations of our differences. The Goddesses were relationship dieties, and the Gods were action dieties. What a blessing to discuss such things with someone who knows the concepts. You are to me, like a warm house with hot chocolate, after a long a challenging walk through a very dark and terrible storm with violent winds. In another forum focused on politics, I am being severely attacked. I am accustom to this, but you are increasing my awareness that informed people respond to what I am saying very differently, and increase my insite ten fold. It is much more profitable to engage in discussion with you, and perhaps foolish of me to engage in discussions with just anyone.

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Okay Imp, I will now respond to the issues, on the condition we have agreement about the importance of respect as a virtue. That is, a virtuous person, is also a respectful person. Being disrespectful is failing to practice the virtue of respect. It is bad manners and immoral, because it has bad results. The moral of the virtue of respect (good manners) is, it has good results. This is understanding universal law.

I could not copy and paste from this site, but it will be of interest to everyone considering the meaning of justice and how it applies to universal law… ancientlibrary.com/smith-dgra/0812.html

Democracy is not a form of government, but an ideology of relationships. Zeus is politics done by Zeus archetypes. Without the culture for democracy, we stand to loose our liberty and freedom, because Zeus archetypes are about order and power, not human relationships. Athena, who taught men how to make their own laws, is about relationships, and doing the right things, because it is the right thing to do, not because it will personally benefit oneself.

Man, I love you all. You have done so much for my understanding. Reading the link will increase knowledge of the culture for democracy.
Christainity (male dominate religion with a Zeus like God) just doesn’t serve democracy well, because it is not the concepts we need for democracy.