exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:02 am

iambiguous wrote:
Aventador wrote:And you never went to Vietnam.

I have a $1000 right now that is yours if you can furnish any proof that you ever set foot in Vietnam.

You old quack.


Note to others:

Great, another fucking Stooge! I give these guys a chance to note why on Earth they are here at a forum called I LOVE PHILOSOPHY. And this is what I get?!!


As for proof that I was in Vietnam, I'll note the information listed on section 24 of my DD214:

BRONZE STAR MEDAL, ARMY CONMENDATION MEDAL [w/V dev], NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE MEDAL, VIETNAM CAMPAIGN MEDAL [W/60 dev], VIETNAM SERVICE MEDAL, OVERSEAS BARS [TWO], EXPERT BADGE M-14, EXPERT BADGE M-16

So Mr. Smartass, is there going to be actual exchange between us regarding your own "sense of identity" or not. You know, this being a philosophy forum.

I am, after all, running out of names to call my Stooges.

Oh, and how close have you ever come to actual armed combat?


Yea, mine says the same thing too.

Asshole.

Hey dude, it's a free $1000. What's the problem?
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby phyllo » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:24 am

That wer'e all are fractured since the days when men could assure themselves of the rational progression of their abstracted lives.
Not everyone. The ones who are "fractured and fragmented" expect, want, need, everything to be black and white.
Since then. Science has unearthed the greatest uncertainty that he ever faced; because if God did not exist, He had to be created to fill that hole.
They also imagine a black and white god.
Last edited by phyllo on Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby Sculptor » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:27 am

iambiguous wrote:
As for proof that I was in Vietnam, I'll note the information listed on section 24 of my DD214:

BRONZE STAR MEDAL, ARMY CONMENDATION MEDAL [w/V dev], NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE MEDAL, VIETNAM CAMPAIGN MEDAL [W/60 dev], VIETNAM SERVICE MEDAL, OVERSEAS BARS [TWO], EXPERT BADGE M-14, EXPERT BADGE M-16


And how do you feel about killing people trying to defend their country against a foreign invader?

Have you ever been back?

And do you accept that the US lost that war?
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby promethean75 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:29 pm

"And how do you feel about killing people trying to defend their country against a foreign invader?"

Oh oh I know! Fractured and fragmented?
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:05 pm

promethean75 wrote:"And how do you feel about killing people trying to defend their country against a foreign invader?"

Oh oh I know! Fractured and fragmented?


K: Prom, have you killed before?
I for one hope, pray in fact that killing another human being does cause
one to be "fractured and fragmented".....if not, then that person is a
true "psychopath"... killing another human being should be hard and gut
wrenching and bring about questions of good and evil.....

I am a good person, and yet, I killed.. so am I good or am I bad/evil?

if killing is wrong, as suggested in the bible, Thou shall not kill..
and we have laws forbidding the act of killing/murder.....
so how would I be able to justify this act of killing/murder?

if that doesn't cause one to become "fractured and fragmented" what will?

personally, I haven' killed and I hope to the end of my days, I never have to kill.....
because what does it say about me that I have killed?
nothing good I am sure......

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby promethean75 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:25 pm

I kill em with kindness, and I've killed more people than I can count, keter.
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby phyllo » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:28 pm

What's all this bible and praying talk?

Most of you guys are atheists and moral nihilists.

Good and evil are your personal subjective opinions. Right?

So if you think that killing someone in a war is okay, then what is there to be fractured about?
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:41 pm

phyllo wrote:What's all this bible and praying talk?

Most of you guys are atheists and moral nihilists.

Good and evil are your personal subjective opinions. Right?

So if you think that killing someone in a war is okay, then what is there to be fractured about?



K: I guess I have to spell this one out..... good and evil are personal, subjective opinions,
however, if one is drafted and then kill, as IAM has done, I think, it doesn't matter
what one's personal subjective opinion is....you are suppose to kill in the name of
the state... and suddenly the act of murder/killing is somehow, never explained
how, but is somehow forgiven...the state is forcing you to act against your own
personal, subjective beliefs.. that killing is wrong...

so, who are we listening to? the state and its demands that we obey its
orders including the act of killing/murder or do we hold to our own personal
believes/opinions that murder/killing is wrong......

so what principle do you follow? at the very heart of this concept of
good and evil lies this understanding of murder/killing.......
is it wrong to murder/kill or is it acceptable given society has "OK" our actions of
killing/murder? thus leading one to a "fractured and fragmented" soul.....

for you are torn between a possible good/rights and a possible wrongs/evil.....

when is the act of murder/killing justified? if the state "allows" it?

many forests have died in this discussion of the justification of murder/killing..

Kropotkin
PK IS EVIL.....
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby phyllo » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:50 pm

That's why people dodged the draft or went to jail.

But once you decided to go into the army, you have also decided that killing people is personally preferable to jail or the other alternatives.

Sure, you might change your mind once you are in the thick of it. But then you have other alternatives. Which might not be pleasant but they are there.
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby Meno_ » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:40 pm

However, there are dark sides , and it comes alongside Capital's shaded disinterest for human life as value.

Trump's and others's suspected deferral for minimal or non existent disability for deferral from the then existant draft became primae facea examples of the economic basis of emergent political inequality.
This may have become a formulated unfortunate aspect of civilizational discontent, other than based on those mostly evolutionary principles
Last edited by Meno_ on Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:56 pm

Aventador wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
Aventador wrote:And you never went to Vietnam.

I have a $1000 right now that is yours if you can furnish any proof that you ever set foot in Vietnam.

You old quack.


Note to others:

Great, another fucking Stooge! I give these guys a chance to note why on Earth they are here at a forum called I LOVE PHILOSOPHY. And this is what I get?!!


As for proof that I was in Vietnam, I'll note the information listed on section 24 of my DD214:

BRONZE STAR MEDAL, ARMY CONMENDATION MEDAL [w/V dev], NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE MEDAL, VIETNAM CAMPAIGN MEDAL [W/60 dev], VIETNAM SERVICE MEDAL, OVERSEAS BARS [TWO], EXPERT BADGE M-14, EXPERT BADGE M-16

So Mr. Smartass, is there going to be actual exchange between us regarding your own "sense of identity" or not. You know, this being a philosophy forum.

I am, after all, running out of names to call my Stooges.

Oh, and how close have you ever come to actual armed combat?


Yea, mine says the same thing too.

Asshole.

Hey dude, it's a free $1000. What's the problem?


I know, I know: Like shooting fish in a really, really small barrel!

And I suspect the closest he has ever come to combat is in dueling with the others here I have reduced down to this.

"The Horror! The Horror!" indeed. :lol:
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:04 pm

At least I don't pretend I went to Vietnam.
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby Aventador » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:05 pm

Punk.
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:21 pm

Sculptor wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
As for proof that I was in Vietnam, I'll note the information listed on section 24 of my DD214:

BRONZE STAR MEDAL, ARMY CONMENDATION MEDAL [w/V dev], NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE MEDAL, VIETNAM CAMPAIGN MEDAL [W/60 dev], VIETNAM SERVICE MEDAL, OVERSEAS BARS [TWO], EXPERT BADGE M-14, EXPERT BADGE M-16


And how do you feel about killing people trying to defend their country against a foreign invader?

Have you ever been back?

And do you accept that the US lost that war?


Once again you put your foot in your mouth. The sneering, arrogant "fulminating fanatic" spouting shit you know absolutely nothing about.

Let's start here from the OP on this thread: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382

2] I was drafted into the Army and while on my "tour of duty" in Vietnam I happened upon politically radical folks who reconfigured my thinking about [the Vietnam war]. And God and lots of other things.
3] after I left the Army, I enrolled in college and became further involved in left wing politics. It was all the rage back then.


In other words, the reason I don't have my medals anymore is because I tossed them at a demonstration in Washington. By then I was just another "Vietnam Veteran Against the War". Just not born on the Fourth of July.

Only, as I suggested to my latest Stooge, Aventador -- Curly-Joe -- above, why don't you and I actually explore human identity in regard to things like the Vietnam War. Philosophically say.

Give this a read and note the extent to which your own sense of self is described or not described here.

iambiguous wrote:If there is one thing I am clearly preoccupied with at ILP, it is relationship between moral and political value judgments and the existential trajectory of the lives that we live.

And, in almost every thread in which I post about this relationship, I eventually get around to this:

1] I was raised in the belly of the working class beast. My family/community were very conservative. Abortion was a sin.
2] I was drafted into the Army and while on my "tour of duty" in Vietnam I happened upon politically radical folks who reconfigured my thinking about abortion. And God and lots of other things.
3] after I left the Army, I enrolled in college and became further involved in left wing politics. It was all the rage back then. I became a feminist. I married a feminist. I wholeheartedly embraced a woman's right to choose.
4] then came the calamity with Mary and John. I loved them both but their engagement was foundering on the rocks that was Mary's choice to abort their unborn baby.
5] back and forth we all went. I supported Mary but I could understand the points that John was making. I could understand the arguments being made on both sides. John was right from his side and Mary was right from hers.
6] I read William Barrett's Irrational Man and came upon his conjectures regarding "rival goods".
7] Then, over time, I abandoned an objectivist frame of mind that revolved around Marxism/feminism. Instead, I became more and more embedded in existentialism. And then as more years passed I became an advocate for moral nihilism.


This because in it are embedded two experiences that were of fundamental importance in shaping and then reconfiguring my own moral and political narratives.

Over the years, I have gone from an objectivist frame of mind [right vs. wrong, good vs. evil] to a way of thinking about morality in human interactions that basically revolves around moral nihilism.

And, then, in turn, this resulted in my tumbling down into a philosophical "hole" such that for all practical purposes, "I" became increasing more fragmented.

This hole:

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

In other words, I am no longer able to think of myself as being in sync with the "real me" in sync with "the right thing to do".

So, I decided to create this thread in order for others to at least make the attempt to describe their own value judgments existentially. Values as they became intertwined over the course of their lives in "experiences, relationships and information, knowledge and ideas."

The part where theory is tested in practice out in particular contexts out in particular worlds.

This thread is not for those ever intent on providing us with "general descriptions" of human interactions. Interactions that are then described almost entirely using technical or academic language.

Instead, this thread is for trying to explain [to the best of your ability] why you think you came to value some behaviors over others. Linking both the experiences you had and the ideas that you came upon that shaped and molded your thinking in reacting to them.

From time to time I will bring it back to the top in case any new members might have an interest in this.

He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby phyllo » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:40 pm

Sculptor wrote:
iambiguous wrote:

As for proof that I was in Vietnam, I'll note the information listed on section 24 of my DD214:

BRONZE STAR MEDAL, ARMY CONMENDATION MEDAL [w/V dev], NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE MEDAL, VIETNAM CAMPAIGN MEDAL [W/60 dev], VIETNAM SERVICE MEDAL, OVERSEAS BARS [TWO], EXPERT BADGE M-14, EXPERT BADGE M-16



And how do you feel about killing people trying to defend their country against a foreign invader?

Have you ever been back?

And do you accept that the US lost that war?



Once again you put your foot in your mouth. The sneering, arrogant "fulminating fanatic" spouting shit you know absolutely nothing about.
It seems that he is just asking if you are fractured and fragmented with respect to these questions.

So why do you react in this way? What's the problem?
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:58 pm

Curly-Joe wrote:At least I don't pretend I went to Vietnam.


On the other hand, maybe I don't have to.

Of course, I don't have access to the mountain of hard evidence that you possess proving beyond any doubt whatsoever that I was never there. :lol:

Also, unlike you, I don't to come to thread like this and pretend to be a philosopher.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby iambiguous » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:20 pm

Once again you put your foot in your mouth. The sneering, arrogant "fulminating fanatic" spouting shit you know absolutely nothing about.


Phyllo wrote:It seems that he is just asking if you are fractured and fragmented with respect to these questions.

So why do you react in this way? What's the problem?


I went over to Vietnam an objectivist. A deeply committed Protestant Christian. I came back a deeply committed Marxist. Yep, another objectivist.

Now, I created this thread in part in order to explore how, over time, given the points raised in this OP above...

iambiguous wrote:If there is one thing I am clearly preoccupied with at ILP, it is relationship between moral and political value judgments and the existential tajectory of the lives that we live.

And, in almost every thread in which I post about this relationship, I eventually get around to this:

1] I was raised in the belly of the working class beast. My family/community were very conservative. Abortion was a sin.
2] I was drafted into the Army and while on my "tour of duty" in Vietnam I happened upon politically radical folks who reconfigured my thinking about abortion. And God and lots of other things.
3] after I left the Army, I enrolled in college and became further involved in left wing politics. It was all the rage back then. I became a feminist. I married a feminist. I wholeheartedly embraced a woman's right to choose.
4] then came the calamity with Mary and John. I loved them both but their engagement was foundering on the rocks that was Mary's choice to abort their unborn baby.
5] back and forth we all went. I supported Mary but I could understand the points that John was making. I could understand the arguments being made on both sides. John was right from his side and Mary was right from hers.
6] I read William Barrett's Irrational Man and came upon his conjectures regarding "rival goods".
7] Then, over time, I abandoned an objectivist frame of mind that revolved around Marxism/feminism. Instead, I became more and more embedded in existentialism. And then as more years passed I became an advocate for moral nihilism.


This because in it are embedded two experiences that were of fundamental importance in shaping and then reconfiguring my own moral and political narratives.

Over the years, I have gone from an objectivist frame of mind [right vs. wrong, good vs. evil] to a way of thinking about morality in human interactions that basically revolves around moral nihilism.

And, then, in turn, this resulted in my tumbling down into a philosophical "hole" such that for all practical purposes, "I" became increasing more fragmented.

This hole:

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

In other words, I am no longer able to think of myself as being in sync with the "real me" in sync with "the right thing to do".

So, I decided to create this thread in order for others to at least make the attempt to describe their own value judgments existentially. Values as they became interwined over the course of their lives in "experiences, relationships and information, knowledge and ideas."

The part where theory is tested in practice out in particular contexts out in particular worlds.

This thread is not for those ever intent on providing us with "general descriptions" of human interactions. Interactions that are then described almost entirely using technical or academic language.

Instead, this thread is for trying to explain [to the best of your ability] why you think you came to value some behaviors over others. Linking both the experiences you had and the ideas that you came upon that shaped and molded your thinking in reacting to them.

From time to time I will bring it back to the top in case any new members might have an interest in this.


...I had evolved existentially into a "fractured and fragmented" moral nihilist.

Now, let's see where Sculptor [or Shemp] takes this exchange below.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:57 am

Above I posted this:


Shemp wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
As for proof that I was in Vietnam, I'll note the information listed on section 24 of my DD214:

BRONZE STAR MEDAL, ARMY CONMENDATION MEDAL [w/V dev], NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE MEDAL, VIETNAM CAMPAIGN MEDAL [W/60 dev], VIETNAM SERVICE MEDAL, OVERSEAS BARS [TWO], EXPERT BADGE M-14, EXPERT BADGE M-16


And how do you feel about killing people trying to defend their country against a foreign invader?

Have you ever been back?

And do you accept that the US lost that war?


iambiguous wrote:Once again you put your foot in your mouth. The sneering, arrogant "fulminating fanatic" spouting shit you know absolutely nothing about.

Let's start here from the OP on this thread: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... 1&t=194382

2] I was drafted into the Army and while on my "tour of duty" in Vietnam I happened upon politically radical folks who reconfigured my thinking about [the Vietnam war]. And God and lots of other things.
3] after I left the Army, I enrolled in college and became further involved in left wing politics. It was all the rage back then.


In other words, the reason I don't have my medals anymore is because I tossed them at a demonstration in Washington. By then I was just another "Vietnam Veteran Against the War". Just not born on the Fourth of July.

Only, as I suggested to my latest Stooge, Aventador -- Curly-Joe -- above, why don't you and I actually explore human identity in regard to things like the Vietnam War. Philosophically say.

Give this a read and note the extent to which your own sense of self is described or not described here.

iambiguous wrote:If there is one thing I am clearly preoccupied with at ILP, it is relationship between moral and political value judgments and the existential trajectory of the lives that we live.

And, in almost every thread in which I post about this relationship, I eventually get around to this:

1] I was raised in the belly of the working class beast. My family/community were very conservative. Abortion was a sin.
2] I was drafted into the Army and while on my "tour of duty" in Vietnam I happened upon politically radical folks who reconfigured my thinking about abortion. And God and lots of other things.
3] after I left the Army, I enrolled in college and became further involved in left wing politics. It was all the rage back then. I became a feminist. I married a feminist. I wholeheartedly embraced a woman's right to choose.
4] then came the calamity with Mary and John. I loved them both but their engagement was foundering on the rocks that was Mary's choice to abort their unborn baby.
5] back and forth we all went. I supported Mary but I could understand the points that John was making. I could understand the arguments being made on both sides. John was right from his side and Mary was right from hers.
6] I read William Barrett's Irrational Man and came upon his conjectures regarding "rival goods".
7] Then, over time, I abandoned an objectivist frame of mind that revolved around Marxism/feminism. Instead, I became more and more embedded in existentialism. And then as more years passed I became an advocate for moral nihilism.


This because in it are embedded two experiences that were of fundamental importance in shaping and then reconfiguring my own moral and political narratives.

Over the years, I have gone from an objectivist frame of mind [right vs. wrong, good vs. evil] to a way of thinking about morality in human interactions that basically revolves around moral nihilism.

And, then, in turn, this resulted in my tumbling down into a philosophical "hole" such that for all practical purposes, "I" became increasing more fragmented.

This hole:

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

In other words, I am no longer able to think of myself as being in sync with the "real me" in sync with "the right thing to do".

So, I decided to create this thread in order for others to at least make the attempt to describe their own value judgments existentially. Values as they became intertwined over the course of their lives in "experiences, relationships and information, knowledge and ideas."

The part where theory is tested in practice out in particular contexts out in particular worlds.

This thread is not for those ever intent on providing us with "general descriptions" of human interactions. Interactions that are then described almost entirely using technical or academic language.

Instead, this thread is for trying to explain [to the best of your ability] why you think you came to value some behaviors over others. Linking both the experiences you had and the ideas that you came upon that shaped and molded your thinking in reacting to them.

From time to time I will bring it back to the top in case any new members might have an interest in this.



So, what does Shemp do? Does he respond to the points I made. On this thread?

No, he takes the same questions and -- believe it or not! -- posts them this thread: https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtop ... &start=175

Wow. No other Stooge before him would have done something so nonsensical.

I am really starting to get to him now. You can almost feel him cracking.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby Aventador » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:53 am

Piece of shit faker wrote:
Aventador wrote:At least I don't pretend I went to Vietnam.


On the other hand, maybe I don't have to.

Of course, I don't have access to the mountain of hard evidence that you possess proving beyond any doubt whatsoever that I was never there. :lol:

Also, unlike you, I don't to come to thread like this and pretend to be a philosopher.


I already did prove it.

You're just a nerd behind a computer making shit up.

People that went to Vietnam don't act like you.

You are a joke and a disgrace, not only to the US of A, but to humanity in general.

I bid you good day, you walking joke.

Continue on with your meaningless diatribes.
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Re: exploring the "fractured and fragmented" self

Postby iambiguous » Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:04 am

Curly-Joe wrote: At least I don't pretend I went to Vietnam.


On the other hand, maybe I don't have to.

Of course, I don't have access to the mountain of hard evidence that you possess proving beyond any doubt whatsoever that I was never there. :lol:

Also, unlike you, I don't to come to thread like this and pretend to be a philosopher.


Curly-Joe wrote:I already did prove it.

You're just a nerd behind a computer making shit up.

People that went to Vietnam don't act like you.

You are a joke and a disgrace, not only to the US of A, but to humanity in general.

I bid you good day, you walking joke.


Of course this is the philosophy board.

And, as I noted elsewhere, if he's not embarrassed to post shit like this, why should I be embarrassed to insist that he damn well ought to be.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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iambiguous
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