Karpel Tunnel wrote:
You just muddied the waters on every point, bringing in all sorts of stuff and not interacting with the ideas I presented. Perhaps pointing this out would make you try something else. Perhaps not. With my limited knowledge I cant know though my experience leads me to think you cant really listen or here 'listen' to another person at this time.
Okay, note the most egregious example of this from my post above.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:Yes, everything is determined. yes, people blame. peacegirl thinks we will learn to not blame.
Again, from my frame of mind, it is less what she thinks is true in a universe where
everything is determined, and more whether she was ever able to
not think it.
Is this exchange itself included in everything? If so then what does it really mean
to blame here? How is blaming not just another manifestation of nature having evolved into minds precipitating consequences precipitating blaming that must ever and always be in sync with the laws of matter?
She seems to blames me here in the manner in which the free will folks blame others when they are convinced that blame is an appropriate choice to make in an autonomous world.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:One could say that peacegirl thinks that not-blaming is catchy.
All of what you associate with that issue. And all the other problems you want to resolve, and anything that my post happens to make you think is irrelevant.
One could say lots of things. But is one free to say that what one says is not the only thing that one was ever able to say in any particular context, at any particular time?
Who comes closer to pinning that down --- peacegirl pontificating about what she thinks is true "in her head", or neurologists actually performing experiments involving the functioning human brain?
Karpel Tunnel wrote:It's like someone notes an issue in one of your posts. It's not everything, but it's one part. You mentioned that you weren't sure as a pedestrian when to cross the street. They say, well, when it's green facing you. You then post back about your bad marriage, your hemmroids, how the neighbors view you, without ever, it seems trying to show you understood the thing about the green light or you didn't. Like interacting with the focus of the other poster. So the next step could be taken.
Are these experiences not in themselves inherently, necessarily embedded in a wholly determined universe?
It's not what steps can be taken but whether you are ever able to choose -- to choose freely -- not to take them.
And here I just don't know. Again, I am drawn and quartered. Those who embrace hard determinism, those who embrace the broadest interpretation of human freedom: they are both able to make convincing arguments:
https://www.debate.org/opinions/does-free-will-existWhat I am most uncertain about here are the arguments of the so-called "compatibilists". Those who make that crucial distinction between mindful matter choosing to make a move in a chess match and the pieces themselves [mindless matter] unable to choose at all.
Like somehow that's "better" for us than the position of the hardcore determinists. Meanwhile in "choosing" to move a piece, I am never able to actually do this freely. I do only what I must. But then settle for the illusion of psychological freedom.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:I promise you I did not think my post would solve all the world's problems or all metaphysical issues or all of yours. If I point out one thing, it doesn not mean I think you should be happy or eveything is peachy. It is me trying to explain one thing.
You "promise" this in the manner in which a free-will advocate would. Or so it seems to me.
You "try to explain" this in a world where the explanation itself is necessarily embedded
in "everything being determined".
Yet somehow [it seems] you able to convince yourself that your explanation is better than mine. Even though both explanations are but an inherent manifestation of matter unfolding into the only future possible given the immutable laws of matter.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:In a determined universe you might come to change the way you post informed by this. Or you might not. In a free will universe you might change after this is pointed out, or not. You might be helped to understand what peacegirl is saying, or not.
Yes, in a determined universe, I might come to choose an explanation more in sync with peacegirls. Yet, in the manner in which I have come to understand determinism, I would really only "choose" this.
Those autonomous aliens, however, would know full well the crucial distinction, right? For all practical purposes for example.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:I think you probably agree that people can change due to outside influence, since this is one of the core points you make, a la dasein. But from our perspective, we dont know when or if....
Okay, but how broadly do you wish to encompass "outside influences"? In the is/ought world, given some measure of human autonomy, those outside influences would [in my view] include things like historical and cultural and experiential contexts. And a world bursting at the seams with contingency, chance and change.
But in a wholly determined universe it might be argued that those "outside influences" encompassed every and all aspect of existence/reality itself.
Right?