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Re: Logic Is Dead

PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:43 am
by nameta9
This problem reminds me of the Brain in a Vat problem or the Intelligent Design problem. There is really no solution and no way at all to get out of logic, no matter how hard you try because all of our thought, language, conceptions and all of our mental circuits are all based on distinction, separating items, rules between entities, etc. And no matter how elaborate and complex and funny, you need the basic distinction and separation and identity of entities to think or say or execute any sequence of operations on any entities.

From other threads I wrote:

"But the program could only possibly distinguish another program, it is not outside of itself, just like we, and our intelligence is not outside of itself, it is simply seeing things through its own eyes (nay, deforming them by decomposing them into the distinct categories, entities and delimitations it has already decided to decompose the world in) and pretending to be "objective""

And

"And why ? because if you are a brain in a vat, or you are dreaming, or whatever other possible situation of being buried inside hidden layers of any sort, there will never and can never be any way to find out. You can't get out of the box you have been put in. And being that you are always inside some kind of box and reference system, the space or universe which contains the box is part of the non observable universe."

I think this is the point: we are not outside of ourselves, we are not looking at things from an observation point where we can view logic and a non-logic, truly contradictory world, we cannot get out of logic just like the brain in a vat cannot get out of the box containing it.

Just like we can't define or even talk about "intelligent design" since everything we see is already intelligent from the outset, by how we perceive and distinguish everything. We force things to become intelligent, even when there is no real intelligence behind them, we force them to become intelligent.


From:


viewtopic.php?f=4&t=174349

"On Intelligent Design ...

You want there to be god. Do you need some other Free Will that is observing you all the time and judging you ? Do you need to be constantly accompanied by this metaphysical entity ? Do you think the "design" of ourselves or the universe and its laws of physics require "an intelligence" ? What makes a totally arbitrary set of causes and effects, that practically don't really follow any laws whatsoever (remember the three body problem has no solution, go on and figure the four, oh, but wait: the universe is made up of 10^100 bodies, or is that particles, or is that waves ?), aside from those large scale generic laws that the differential equations of most physical phenomena describe (but very, very rarely have an exact solution, just this makes the basis of some kind of "intelligent" design very shaky) intelligent ?

Get used to long complex sentences, it exercises your little minds...

Is god, by the way intelligent ? seems to me that he is a simple one transistor circuit, you do some "bad" action = sin, some good action "ok", like all the basis of our existence, a one transistor circuit, on = pleasure, off = pain. Sure doesn't seem to require much intelligence to me.

And who or exactly what is deciding, evaluating, assigning that very meaning of the word "intelligence" ? Oh, I see, some kind of circular reasoning, the thing that is intelligent is assigning and evaluating the intelligence of the things that it is not. Wow, really interesting. Like a software program that discovers that its own instructions are made up of lower level instructions that are themselves a program. But the program could only possibly distinguish another program, it is not outside of itself, just like we, and our intelligence is not outside of itself, it is simply seeing things through its own eyes (nay, deforming them by decomposing them into the distinct categories, entities and delimitations it has already decided to decompose the world in) and pretending to be "objective"."



From:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=174931


"This paradox has no solution, it will never and can never be solved no matter what you think, no matter how you try to think it away, and no matter how hard you try.

And why ? because if you are a brain in a vat, or you are dreaming, or whatever other possible situation of being buried inside hidden layers of any sort, there will never and can never be any way to find out. You can't get out of the box you have been put in. And being that you are always inside some kind of box and reference system, the space or universe which contains the box is part of the non observable universe."


Of course you can convince yourself that you can contain a contradiction and you can make believe that you can reason in contradictory terms, like I do sometimes: but it is just a joke, a trick of the mind, a make believe situation. But if you are convinced enough, or if you believe it, then it is true. Who cares if it is a lie, everything is a lie.

If you lived all your life convinced of something false and never knew the truth, what would change ? Nothing, you can live with all kinds of lies, it doesn't matter, nay, it doesn't even matter if you discover that it is false, what counts is the experience, the fact that you were convinced, but we are never 100 % convinced of anything at all.

Re: Logic Is Dead

PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 7:50 am
by nameta9
A = not A. That is the question. That is a "contradictory universe". Where does this exist, how does this exist ? It does exist, but it doesn't "do" anything. That is the point, it is in a metaphysical dimension of no activity, no further actions, no further relationships, it needs no other relationships, there are no further elaborations, no other interactions of this state of "existence" or "being" than itself. You are not going to use it to reach other new relationships, you can't use it in any sense at all, because using it means plugging it in some kind of language, logic, some kind of "progression" towards something else, but it already contains, within itself, all that it needs since it doesn't need anything else, it is total, totalizing and finished.

It especially has no relationship with "us", with our mind, there is nothing we can do with it, there is no kinds of "Intentionality of Use" that we can apply to it. This is real metaphysics, real philosophy, that for which there is no further use, no further relationship, except these words or similar that describe vaguely how it relates to what we already know. All of our science, language, thoughts and memory are relationships defined according to what we already know, are new elaborations in an already given solution space, and these new elaborations and calculations bring on further new ones or apparently new ones, expanding the solution space as in the "progress of science and knowledge and the insertion of new bits in memory as a result", that are "used" to generate others, in a "process", a cycle.

But metaphysics is still, static, is frozen, doesn't progress. Like when we stop to think about time, it is a constant present moment that divides that past from the future, but it isn't the past or the future and the moment is fleeting, is intractable. These kinds of problems have no solution, these problems are absolutely new every time you look at them, there is no possible solution to this equation, there is no possible "progress" as is understood in terms of logic and science that can be applied to this, it will be always the same whether we look at it at 5 years old or after a trillion times, at 100 years old. There is nothing we can "do" with this problem, no further possible "understanding" by meditating upon it. And indeed metaphysics and philosophy at this level also has no social use, no one can help you on this one, you are alone with this, your mind is alone with this thought and no amount of social interaction, of "communication" will change this. And in fact real philosophy has no need to be communicated, has no use, has no social meaning, has no logical use whatsoever, it is simply the mind looking at impossible problems, taking a glimpse in a new universe of metaphysical platonic monolithic slabs of crashed mental "computer programs".

Most problems in philosophy are completely new every time you look at them, no matter how many times you already looked at them, this is because the nature of these problems and the way our mind reacts to them is always like the first time, we repeat forever the same awe and feel the same distance from these problems, there is no possible progress in philosophy, it is always repeated the same and often, even the more you look at these problems "the newer they become", the further you get from solutions, the worse it gets. All of our normal everyday logic goes out of the window when thinking about a "contradictory universe", "time", "existence" and other similars, the difference with everyday concepts, with science or even mathematics and physics is astounding, the problem of "existence" is so general and abstract, that all other problems become puny, irrelevant, for little boys.

Like the concept of "existence". This is also a monolithic slab, for anything to "exist", "existence" itself must already exist, but exactly where, in what way is something real, does something exist, is something true ? No solution, the further you think about it, the worst it gets, reverse progress, another characteristic of philosophy is that the more you "work" on problems the further you get away from any solutions, a concept or problem must simply be perceived, stated, and left alone, and your mind can simply wander, don't use logic, it is useless, counterproductive.

One last thing, instead of "A = not A", write, "= A not =". What is = ? How can this be ? It is, but it is another monolithic slab. Write others, invent other concepts they are all real, what is the square root of the square root without applying it to numbers ? That is metaphysics, that is where things really exist.

The structure of existence, if something is true it must exist in all time and in all points in space simultaneously, otherwise there is a place where it isn't. So if we are alive and what we see is true, then we must be alive in all time and for all points in space otherwise (but we were dead, and will be dead, and we are not walking on mars)... and we must be concentrating on the same information the same Information Relationship, Reciprocal Information Interactions and Reciprocal Mass - Energy - Matter Interactions, but if there are other Reciprocal Information Relationships, what makes the previous one still exist ? Memory ? But if you think of the previous one you lose the present one, so what gives ? We are contradiction, we are without any solution.

In theoretical physics, the most abstract theory of new universes has the same distance in our mind to the most concrete theory, they are all denotations, just Reciprocal Information Relationships, some are associated to measurements that somehow confirm the "reality" of the theory, but in all truth, they are all real, only some can be translated into some other language where instrumental manipulations can be used. But this begs the question, since we always essentially just talk to ourselves, we probably can invent a new instrumental relationship, and lie to ourselves and make any theory truth.

Reality couldn't have been based but on Quantum Theory, it couldn't have been any different, there is no way that an electron circling an atom could have been a rigid ball with an infinitely precise size, a monolithic slab, otherwise the world would have been completely deterministic and completely tractable and predictable, the three body problem exactly solvable (but there is an abstract universe where this is true, that abstract universe exists and is real just as much as ours given the nature of "existence").

But reality exists exactly because the laws of physics don't exist in some points of space, the probabilistic, quantum nature of reality reflects this, it is the non existence of any patterns and laws that make the existence of the patterns and laws of physics real. Just like philosophy states that something exists only because it exists in the background of its opposite.

Reality is the subtle string of the lack of the laws of physics that gives the laws of physics their reality.

Re: Logic Is Dead

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 2:54 pm
by nameta9
From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2011/05/a-flea-in-his-ear.html

Marlin says:

"But your posts ... I can read them over a dozen times and still not know what the f--k you are driving at. What the hell is the point? To show us how smart you are. It seems to be alot of abstruse bullshit with no point at all. Besides ... Hegel, Kant, Nietzche, Heidigger ... nobody gives a sh-t about philosophy anymore anyway. These are time for hard reality, not bullshit."

I answer:

Do you think I am getting at something ? These kinds of abstractions and "problems" (if it even makes sense to call them so) are eternal, metaphysical, not of this world or any world, but exactly because of this are the most important for "our world" which is just an entity that "exists" on the stage of or in the "reference system" of "existence", "time", "space", "logic" and other vague, ill defined (the more vague and badly defined the better) dimensions.

You can't "do" anything with these, that is why they are so important, they are the bottom line of reality. You think I can do something with "smart" ? Smart is useful for technical targets, goals, social interactions, smart is all over the place in science and technology, but that is not "metaphysics".

Metaphysics is that that has absolutely no goal, no social use, no worth at all by any human standards, it is eternal, static, infinite, never ending, beyond our puny minds. And it doesn't "exist" as it likes to mock existence and logic, what puny entities ...

From:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=175312

From the Saint:

"Something that truly affects nothing, does not exist - anywhere.
To exist, an proposed entity must have affect."

And in fact, keep on using logic, reasoning, keep on trying to understand, keep on working on problems, keep on thinking that you can advance, can progress.

Logic, physics and mathematics are very different and distinct from philosophy Saint, you keep on falling into sub branches of these. Kill logic, kill reasoning, be unreasonable.


Relax, sit back, god wants to talk to you. He likes to play chess games with his inferiors and he has bad news for you, you will lose. He starts out by making people doubt his own "existence": you can never know "for sure", you will never know if he exists or if he doesn't, but this insecurity is the basis of "faith", but therefore "faith" really has no bases, the most we can say is, we don't know. No one can know and will ever know, even if you saw him, even if you were in hell, the extreme pain (that turns off thought anyways, while pleasure doesn't turn off thought...), it still wouldn't be enough to be really, really sure. This is part of the structure of the universe, you can't know anything at all for sure, another one of those insane metaphysical problems, this ability to not know for sure (anything, not even if we were designed by martians, if we ourselves are god, or we live in a virtual reality as a brain in a vat) is one of the sides of the box that contains the mind, of the box that serves as a reference system, as a coordinate system of our existence. And if you can't be sure of god, then you can't be sure of anything, not even logic, not even what you are now reading. By the way, I haven't defined god, but that is ok, you don't want to open that can of worms, we can't even define space or time or logic, let alone anything else.

Parmenides said he visited a goddess that whispered a truth in his ear, "Existence Is". Of course I may be wrong, but it is ok for god to be wrong, no one will punish him. And this existence is infinite, eternal, never changing, but subtly can't really sustain the principle of "non contradiction". So what is it, a secret message that philosophers have been transmitting us through the centuries ? take what we say and believe the opposite as truth ? After all, philosophy just needs these 2 words, "Existence Is", everything else that can be said and will be said, all of the other and any other philosophy is irrelevant, excess wording, not needed, those 2 words have said everything that ever needed to be said, so philosophy is over, done with.

The real problem is how insane the "principle of non contradiction" is. How can something be different from something else, how can A be different from B ? A much more rational world is one where A is B, A is not itself, A is also B and C, a totally contradictory world. But aside from perceiving, feeling, conceiving this insanity in your mind, how insane the principle of non contradiction really is, aside from looking at it, and meditating on it, you can't do anything with it, it is one of those other infinitely recursive problems, that apply to itself forever, like insecurity, existence, and many other (or no others). How can A be different from B ? Totally mind boggling, insane, impossible, and yet all of western civilization is based on the principle of "non contradiction", really insane, go figure.

Anyways go on, "contradict me", I am the most ferocious critic of myself, you can be sure, I thrive to be wrong, and am as wrong as possible, contradict me, demolish everything I say, I can't wait, your criticism is always heaven sent compared to what I do to myself.

Re: Logic Is Dead

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:27 am
by nameta9
From:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=175312


"Reality is the subtle string of the lack of the laws of physics that gives the laws of physics their reality."


"And this existence is infinite, eternal, never changing, but subtly can't really sustain the principle of "non contradiction"."


I woke up in the middle of the night, Richard Feynman and Albert Einstein came to visit me, after all eternity is a long time and they were bored. They spoke and said: it is impossible for the laws of physics, like a prison guard controlling a prisoner (the prisoner being Mass - Energy or Matter), to be constantly valid in all points of space and for all time, that there is infinite determinism operating, that the electron has an infinitely precise size, that time and space can be divided infinitely and there thus corresponds a number to such entities or any other measurement in physics.

Hence, the grand unified theory of Gravity with Electromagnetism and Quantum Mechanics can be unified and is unified only in those points in space and time where the laws of physics take a vacation every now and then: since at those points the "principle of non contradiction" is no longer operating, you can unify all and any forces with all and any mechanisms you choose, with any sequence of symbols you choose. And Feynman also said that this explains the riddle of normalization of the infinities in Quantum Electrodynamics, and also the strange way that random numbers are plugged into a handful of physical constants, just for the fun of it.

But also, since Existence itself contradicts the principle of "non contradiction", you reach the same result from a different avenue, the avenue of Metaphysics.

And the 2 scientists said that they spent their time in eternity unifying the forces present in imaginary universes (but just as real as any other since everything is essentially just a Reciprocal Information Relationship) having 20 forces or thousands of contradicting forces, producing ever more complex mathematics and abstractions, in a never ending game of chess with god, he giving them ever more complex, impossibly crazy and complex universes with a never ending array of incoherences and inconsistencies, a never ending array of particle accelerators creating ever more particles, each one completely demolishing huge theories that took trillions of pages to write and trillions of man years to produce.

And the mind was thinking, like a slow motion mental computer program that is slowly crashing, how can something be a unit and made up of separate parts at the same time ? how come a group of entities are considered one and are aggregated and in other instances are considered independent parts ? how does free will emerge from the laws of physics (or is it the other way around) ? how can anything be different from anything else (the principle of non contradiction, a totally insane and crazy principle if there ever was one), or is the question rather, how can anything be the same with anything else, even itself ? and other impossible problems, an infinite recursion of the mind applying itself to an infinite recursion of impossible Metaphysical problems.

What makes a sequence of symbols more real and valid than any other ? why even unify the forces of nature, why not let them be independent of each other, why is the compression of information more elegant than having just a series of complete but disjoint theories not having anything in common ? Who said that things should be unified ? Actually how can anything even be related to anything else at all ? a never ending array of impossible questions.

Give the mind a content it will be happy, just like give them a function (a ritual, activity, a game to play) they will be happy.



And the Saint answers:

"Why put your words in any order?"

Good point, another impossible Metaphysical problem for my mind to meditate upon...

Re: Logic Is Dead

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 1:01 pm
by nameta9
From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2011/05/a-flea-in-his-ear.html

Weirdo spider says:

"Kill Memory, Memory is a Prison, Memory is Hell. Like someone that talked about storage (in the US that is buildings that rents floor space for you to store your old furniture, books, TV, etc.) becoming a big industry in the US: people want to store their past, they want to be attached to some kinds of memories. We need memory like a hole in the head, erase it all and start over, and then erase it again, or better yet, invent fake memories, it is all true anyways, it is all simply a Reciprocal Information Relationship and Interaction between imaginary separate parts of Mass - Energy and/or Matter interacting with itself.

By the way, I don't really chase ass that much as "drool" over ladies bodies, but that is ok, it is irrelevant. I probably don't want anything anyways, as contrasting will powers in one mind play games with each other. Anyways Love Kills Sex, in a way, it is the worst that can happen, but I don't want to open that other can of worms, as these lead me to other Impossible Metaphysical Problems. In fact there are way more impossible metaphysical problems than particles in the universe, as anything, problem, concept, target or goal is and will remain unsolved, nay, will become increasingly harder to solve, reverse progress, just like the galaxies that are receding from each other at faster and faster rates.

We have TeraBytes of data, ever more data, ever more memory, why ? who is keeping score up there ? we are always keeping score of past events, measuring and assigning numbers to items, events, experiences, especially to other people's judgment of us (or is it me, or you, hmmm... but you can't touch judgments others can have of you, so then it doesn't exist) how they add up, as if they add up and aggregate into something greater than the vanishingly small parts they are made up of. But we don't need memories, kill them and kill thought and logic and kill everything else in our brain and mind, just like god wants you all to do, like good little boys."

A bit like dead objects (assumed dead entities and items, most of the things in the world - universe) waking up and telling us what the real deal is...

Re: Logic Is Dead

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 2:50 pm
by brevel_monkey
The building of any sort of 'chip' or computer system is routed in the principles of logic.

So unless computers are going out of fashion, logic will remain an impotrant discipline for some time...

Re: Logic Is Dead

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 6:37 pm
by Amorphos
Wow this is far out man, great topic.

Can someone take me through this please, as I am not sure if I am fully understanding it.

A singularity; here means a reconfigured neural matrix I assume?
The idea being that instead of building up to an intellect, personality etc, you simply change the matrix of the brain into something else?

I like the fluidity of being very present in the now, it’s a bit like an LSD trip where you cannot trust all your normal inputs. …so we all end up bumping into trees whilst thinking it’s a door into another world?
I think even in such an extreme change of mind as with LSD, you still use your memory to base ideas upon. Here you don’t even have that, you have some matrix that recreates the world according to it? Or presumably the new singularity is still responsive to the inputs from the world, such that it can get around?

Please god I hope the theory is not that the world doesn’t really exist, that we all live in some subjective bubble. Then that you can simply change the matrix of the brain to anything and it only has to make sense [or not] to itself.