iambiguous wrote:a man amidst mankind...
That is the paradox, right? I am an individual....a man; yet, in turn, I am but one of 6,500,000,000 additional men and women that constitutes what is commonly called "mankind". So, in what sense can I, as an individual, grasp my identity as separate and distinct from mankind? How do I make intelligent distinctions between my personal, psychological "self" [the me "I" know intimately from day to day], my persona [the me "I" project -- often as a chameleon -- in conflicting interactions with others], and my historical and ethnological self as a white male who happened adventiously to be born and raised to view reality from the perpective of a 20th century United States citizen?
How does all of this coalesce into who I think I am? And how does this description contrast with how others grasp who they think I am? Is there a way to derive an objective rendering of my true self? Can I know objectively who I am?
No, I don't think so.
Identity is ever constructed, deconstructed and reconstructed over the years by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of variables---some of which we had/have no choice/control regarding. We really are "thrown" into a fortuitous smorgasbord of demographic factors at birth and then molded and manipulated as children into whatever configuration of "reality" suits the cultural [and political] institutions of our time.
On the other hand:
In my view, one crucial difference between people is the extent to which they become more or less self-conscious of this. Why? Because, obviously, to the extent that they do, they can attempt to deconstruct the past and then reconstruct the future into one of their own more autonomous making.
But then what does this really mean? That is the question that has always fascinated me the most. Once I become cognizant of how profoundly problematic my "self" is, what can "I" do about it? And what are the philosophical implications of acknolwedging that identity is, by and large, an existential contraption that is always subject to change without notice? What can we "anchor" our identity to so as to make this prefabricated...fabricated...refabricated world seem less vertiginous? And, thus, more certain.
Is it any wonder that so many invent foundationalist anchors like Gods and Reason and Truth? Scriptures from one vantage point or another. Anything to keep from acknowledging just how contingent, precarious, uncertain and ultimately meaningless our lives really are.
Or, of course, is that just my foundation?
aletheia wrote: Do we really need certainty? Do we really need to "know" who "we" are as "individuals"? What does that even mean? The issue becomes only as problematic as our problematizing of it.
aletheia wrote:What are you? A being, capable of experiencing in many different ways. Why do you need a foundation? For what? To pretend you are something "solid", like a rock, or something "consistent", as if you were outside of time and unchanging? Loss of these sort of needs leads to freedom to just be what you are, as you are. The philosopher has no need for contriving "foundations" or "certainties" of personality/identity; the philosopher lives as he/she is, that is all.
aletheia wrote:Maybe I'm different, but I have no need to create a "self-image" based on anything, no need to view myself in any certain way or conform to any archetype or brand. Yes at times I present myself in a deliberately concealed manner, but when I do I am aware of it and aware of why I am doing it. Doing so does not change "who I am", because I do not confuse myself with the partial view of myself I am letting others see. I am what I am, I experience what I experience, I think and feel what I think and feel. Others may act like robots or actors in a play, performing a role for an audience. Maybe that is their self-awareness, but it is not mine.
aletheia wrote:So what is your "foundation"?
iambiguous wrote:aletheia wrote: Do we really need certainty? Do we really need to "know" who "we" are as "individuals"? What does that even mean? The issue becomes only as problematic as our problematizing of it.
I would say we are predisposed -- mentally, emotionally and psychologically -- to feel certain about the things we do. I say this because so many folks invariably are. It's just a matter of what they predicate this certainty on. Is it their "upbringing"? Is it God? is it Reason? is it nationality? is it ethnicity?
And is this not invariably rooted in historical eras and cultures? And in the particular experiences lived through by actual flesh and blood individuals?
But some come not to feel this certainty. The nihilist, for one.
But this particular nihilist recognizes there are in fact some things I can be certain about. If only -- re Hume -- "for all practical purposes".
But there are any number of things "I" cannot be sure of.
aletheia wrote:What are you? A being, capable of experiencing in many different ways. Why do you need a foundation? For what? To pretend you are something "solid", like a rock, or something "consistent", as if you were outside of time and unchanging? Loss of these sort of needs leads to freedom to just be what you are, as you are. The philosopher has no need for contriving "foundations" or "certainties" of personality/identity; the philosopher lives as he/she is, that is all.
Basically, I agree. But, again, this point of view is, apparently, in the minority.
On the other hand, being "what you are, as you are" is also embedded -- problematically -- in dasein. The question then becomes, "using the tools of philosophy are there behaviors I can choose more wisely"?
aletheia wrote:Maybe I'm different, but I have no need to create a "self-image" based on anything, no need to view myself in any certain way or conform to any archetype or brand. Yes at times I present myself in a deliberately concealed manner, but when I do I am aware of it and aware of why I am doing it. Doing so does not change "who I am", because I do not confuse myself with the partial view of myself I am letting others see. I am what I am, I experience what I experience, I think and feel what I think and feel. Others may act like robots or actors in a play, performing a role for an audience. Maybe that is their self-awareness, but it is not mine.
Well, I am not like you. Or, rather, I do not perceive myself as being like I perceive you to be.
You seem rather certain of your Self here. I do not feel that way about my own. Over and again, when put in a situation where I have to choose between conflicting moral and political narratives, I feel ambivalent emotions and think ambivalent thoughts. There does not seem to be a way that "I" can anchor my "self" to any one position. And I recognize that had I been born in a different time and place I might think and feel quite differently from how I think and feel now. "I" [and its value judgments] is ever rooted in contingency, chance and change.
And, even were I to feel grounded in a more solid sense of self, I would still bump into others equally convinced of this---yet embracing conflicting and contradictory moral and political values. And philosophy is of limited value here in resolving these age-old conflagrations.
aletheia wrote:So what is your "foundation"?
existentialism. nihilism. But only in the manner in which "I" -- as dasein -- have come to understand them. And that is always and ever open to reconstruction.
aletheia wrote:
Yes we are very much predisposed to this sort of need for psychological certainty. But that is not an argument for clinging to such certainties. Nor is it an argument against freeing ourselves from such certainties.
aletheia wrote:There are others than the nihilist who have moved beyond this need for certainty. For example, those who have moved beyond nihilism.
aletheia wrote:Ascending the rungs of our self experiencings brings us into realms where certainty is poison and death; lower realms require generating more certainty in order to function correctly, but even here this certainty is never absolute, never need be dogmatic.
aletheia wrote:So what? You are not a god nor a perfect or infinite being, why would you expect yourself to be free of things you cannot be sure of? Having many things we cannot be sure of is a wonderful halmark of our manner of existence, of our being alive. Uncertainty and the unknown plays as direct and potent a causal and supportive role in our psychology as "certainties" and "knowledge" do.
aletheia wrote:I have found that only when I have rid myself of need or desire to anchor myself to any one position am I free to see the situation as it is, and come to an enlightened perspective on it.
aletheia wrote:So you think that because we contain contradictions and conflicting values within ourselves that we are not "grounded in a more solid sense of self"? What if holding conflicting values and contradictions is an essential part of our sense of self? What if the self is composed of such oppositions? What if the idea of a "single unified solid self" is only a fantasy that doesn't conform at all to the real way the self is put together?
iambiguous wrote:aletheia wrote:Yes we are very much predisposed to this sort of need for psychological certainty. But that is not an argument for clinging to such certainties. Nor is it an argument against freeing ourselves from such certainties.
But it is an argument that very, very few people ever really probe in depth. There are literally millions upon millions of folks on the planet who barely put a dent in the existential narrative they learned as children regarding these things. They will go to the grave thinking more or less as their parents did.
In other words, the idea that one largely views the world as dasein is simply alien -- or even inconceivable -- to them.
And out in the real world -- the world that revolves basically around subsisting from day to day -- there are now fully 3,500,000,000+ people who live literally on $2 a day or less. This sort of "philosophical" speculation is not something relevant to them at all. They basically leave such matters to the folks who claim to mediate between them and God.
aletheia wrote:There are others than the nihilist who have moved beyond this need for certainty. For example, those who have moved beyond nihilism.
True, and, in here, these are the folks I am most curious about. Those folks, in other words, who acknowledge the nature [and the importance] of dasein and yet are somehow able to transcend nihilism. I am not able to myself.
aletheia wrote:Ascending the rungs of our self experiencings brings us into realms where certainty is poison and death; lower realms require generating more certainty in order to function correctly, but even here this certainty is never absolute, never need be dogmatic.
Given what can be -- in any particular individual's life -- a highly problematic relationship between the past, the present and the future, each ascent and descent must rely on variables like memory, contingency, context, fortuity and the like. What some might see as certainty here I do not. Although, to be honest, there is always the possibility we are talking about two very different things here.
For me:
...there are any number of things "I" cannot be sure of.
For you:
So what? You are not a god nor a perfect or infinite being, why would you expect yourself to be free of things you cannot be sure of? Having many things we cannot be sure of is a wonderful halmark of our manner of existence, of our being alive. Uncertainty and the unknown plays as direct and potent a causal and supportive role in our psychology as "certainties" and "knowledge" do.
I don't expect this. On the contrary, "contingency, chance and change" follow us from the cradle to the grave. It's just that some lives are more uneventful than others. And, when we are not certain, the choices we make can be catastrophic. But, perhaps, not nearly as catastrophic as the choices others make in being certain about something no man or woman can really be certain about. We see this all the time in the consequences meted out by the religious and ideological minds. And, of course, by the minds of nihilists. Everything is always situated out in an enormously complex world.
You seem able to say "so what?" to things I long ago stopped underestimating.
But, again, much that we impart in the words we exchange here is rooted in the actual experiences we have had. And, because of that, what might give me pause [or even stricken me] another will simply shrug off.
Or even revel in.
iambiguous:
You seem rather certain of your Self here. I do not feel that way about my own. Over and again, when put in a situation where I have to choose between conflicting moral and political narratives, I feel ambivalent emotions and think ambivalent thoughts. There does not seem to be a way that "I" can anchor my "self" to any one position. And I recognize that had I been born in a different time and place I might think and feel quite differently from how I think and feel now. "I" [and its value judgments] is ever rooted in contingency, chance and change.
aletheia:I have found that only when I have rid myself of need or desire to anchor myself to any one position am I free to see the situation as it is, and come to an enlightened perspective on it.
As dasein, do we ever really see most things the way they are?
Especially things that revolve around conflicts with others. For example, some listened to President Obama's speech last night and thought he certainly grasped the economy "the way it is". Others, however, hear the very same words and conclude he does not really grasp the situation at all. And, how I reacted to it as a radical liberal, bespeaks a context entirely at odds with all the talking heads I listened to in the corporate "media industrial complex".
And after one has thought about things like this [or the complex relationships in their personal life] and rids oneself of the need or desire for certainty, they are still forced to choose.
You argue that an enlightened perspective can come from this. And, if it has for you, great. But it never really has for me. All I ever see are uncertainty, ambiguity and a convoluted sense of confusion. Especially when the stakes seem at their highest.
aletheia wrote:So you think that because we contain contradictions and conflicting values within ourselves that we are not "grounded in a more solid sense of self"? What if holding conflicting values and contradictions is an essential part of our sense of self? What if the self is composed of such oppositions? What if the idea of a "single unified solid self" is only a fantasy that doesn't conform at all to the real way the self is put together?
In my view, what we contain are individual perceptions of contradiction and conflict. And these perceptions are rooted in all that I argue above. Thus, what we see as contradictory or conflicting contexts, others do not. And all we can do is butt heads with arguments that are equally reasonable given contradictory and conflicting premises that, philosophically, can never be reconciled or resolved. Or, rather, have not been so far.
One need but note any particular moral or political fracas and start in on discussing it from contradictory or conflicting points of view.
It is then that dasein and the limitations of language most clearly reveal themselves. Or they do to me.
iambiguous wrote:There are literally millions upon millions of folks on the planet who barely put a dent in the existential narrative they learned as children regarding these things. They will go to the grave thinking more or less as their parents did.
aletheia wrote: Yes this is true. But does this bother you? I accept this as a fact of life, as humans are presently in this world.
aletheia wrote: Can I ask why, in your view, you are unable to transcend your nihilism? If you imagined for a moment that you were able to transcend it, what do you think this would be like?
aletheia wrote:It is not because I am underestimating them that I am able to say "so what?" to them, it is because I have not underestimated them, rather I have spent a lot of time with them and have come to more practiced and comprehensive perspectives on them, one's situated in far broader contexts of meaning and value. Such a comprehensivity of mind is necessary to cultivate a context in which we are to attempt this sort of drastic and often despairing philosophy of truth, otherwise the potency of the objects we are accessing can overwhelm us (but once context is achieved and distance is made possible, perspective follows. One cannot weigh a star unless one is a God, so to speak, not without getting crushed...).
aletheia wrote:We see things the way that we see them. This does not imply noumena or the impossibility of knowledge, nor does it imply objective reality or certainty. The labels and language we use to frame this issue become problematic if we allow them to set the terms of the experience itself. Language sets "is" "are" "the" up against truth as experience by presupposing as assumption of conditions something that is not itself a part of our experiences.
aletheia wrote:Forced to choose what?
aletheia wrote:...I have found it possible and useful to transcend the oppositional nature inherent in these ideological "struggles", to raise the issues our of the relative context of these binary sides and thus allow a Hegelian sort of synthesis to arise, this really means that a new broader and higher context has been established wherein understanding of all "sides" as well as the discontinuity or overlapping of these sides all becomes mutually apparent. Politics is a great example where philosophy in practice can yield wonderful and practical results.
aletheia wrote:I do not try to reconcile or resolve these philosophical notions with others, I only do so with myself. Perhaps you are approaching it as if you need to find agreement with others in order to reach truth in these matters; if so, I would argue this is very much the wrong way to go about it.
Dglgmut wrote:When we look at ourselves, it should be as if we are looking at any other part of existence. We shouldn't try to view the perspective from which we view, like a dog chasing its tail.
We can only look at ourselves, not inside ourselves. We can't take ourselves apart, because those parts are necessary for our existence. When we attempt to isolate any part of ourselves, it is no longer us, and so we must look at the whole.
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