Was Nietzsche a panpsychic?

[Arminius]

Here's an interesting quote from Wiki ....

According to Santayana, Nietzsche considered his philosophy to be a correction of Schopenhauer’s philosophy. In his Egotism in German Philosophy,[27] Santayana listed Nietzsche’s antithetical reactions to Schopenhauer.

The will to live would become the will to dominate; pessimism founded on reflection would become optimism founded on courage; the suspense of the will in contemplation would yield to a more biological account of intelligence and taste; finally in the place of pity and asceticism (Schopenhauer’ s two principles of morals) Nietzsche would set up the duty of asserting the will at all costs and being cruelly but beautifully strong. These points of difference from Schopenhauer cover the whole philosophy of Nietzsche.

These emendations show how Schopenhauer’s philosophy was not a mere initial stimulus for Nietzsche, but formed the basis for much of Nietzsche’s thinking.

Hope it is useful.

I think this is quite right. Nietzsche was as antithetical to Schopenhauer as Marx was to Hegel. Until Marx' death Marx had been a pupil of his teacher Hegel, and until Nietzsche's death Nietzsche had been a pupil of Schopenhauer. Interesting is the question who was or is synthetical to Hegel ("Thesis") and Marx ("Antithesis") and who was or is synthetical to Schopenhauer ("Thesis") and Nietzsche ("Antithesis").

Put in the right name:

Hegel ("Thesis") + Marx ("Antithesis") = . . . . . . . . . ("Synthesis").

Schopenhauer ("Thesis") + Nietzsche ("Antithesis") = . . . . . . . . . ("Synthesis").

Good luck!

[James S Saint]

Oh... I thought he was asking if Nietzsche was a "pan-psychotic"...

[Arminius]

Oh... I thought he was asking if Nietzsche was a "pan-psychotic"...

No, he said "panpsychic", but I don't know, whether he meant "pan-psychotic" ....

[Arminius]

I don't know a whole lot about Nietzshe's philosophy as I've said many times. I've tried to read him but I give up because he seems to change the meanings of his words from page to page. German and English are very rich languages with a lot of undertones and nuances. (Handschusheheimerland Strasse, for example, means the street to the glove/mitten maker's home, translated literally. But a lot depends on the gender of the nouns and the declension of any verbs, once the nouns are separated out of the whole. Handschuhe means shoes for the hands--I can't remember if it's masc. or neuter. Deutschland, Germany,--uber alles in der Welt--over (superior, greater, leading) alles (all, all countries) in der (masc) Welt--Germany is the greatest (country) in the entire world. Sounds normally patriotic, doesn't it? Until it took on other meanings.)

All of which is to say Nietzshe's 'will to power' is difficult to accurately translate--now matter how good the translator. Even if we lived in 19th century Germany it would be difficult to understand because it's used in more than one way.

Der in the phrase in der Welt is not masculine, but feminine; not nominative singular masculine, but dative singular feminine, to be precise. (Handschuhe is plural, by the way; the singular, Handschuh, is masculine.)

The phrase der Wille zur Macht literally means "the will to the might"; but the second "the" should be left out, just as in die Wirklichkeit, "reality", not "the reality"; and the German Macht is broader than the English "might", which is why "power" is indeed the best translation in this context.

What is it exactly that "depends on the gender of the nouns and the declension of any verbs, once the nouns are separated out of the whole"?

I think the question how to understand Nietzsche's Wille zur Macht („will to power“, „will to the might“ ) can mainly be answered by his personal and philosophical development, and - last but not least - by his language use, and his language was of course German. Nietzscche was a philologist, a poet, and of course a philosopher.

By the way: the German word zur is a composition which includes two words: the prepostion zu („to“) and the article der („the“), in this case der is not masculine, but feminine because of dative singular. Thus der Wille zu( de)r Macht is „the will to the might (power)“.

Philosophically Nietzsche was a pupil of Schopenhauer, and this fact should not be confused, if it is said there were two or three or even four or five stages in Nietzsche's life:

(1) childhood and youth,
(2) from his youth till his „terminated contact“ with Wagner,
(3) from his „terminated contact“ with Wagner till his „Zarathustra“,
(4) from his „Zarathustra“ till his collapse,
(5) from his collapse till his death.

Philosphical interested people interpret (probably correctly) the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th stage as the main stages in Nietzsche's philosophical life. The most Nietzscheans say that the „terminated contact“ with Wagner was the most important change in Nietzsches life, but that's wrong. This „terminated contact“ wasn't as much a terminated contact as it is often interpretated.

And we don't have to forget Nietzsche's desease because Nietzsche had been ill since a certain time. Probably was this one of the main reasons for his success - he himself often mentioned it, and many of his philosophical explanations are based on medical, physiological, especially immunological, and of course psychlogical aspects. He won or gained more or less of these aspects because of his pain, I think.

Nietzsche was perhaps a pan-immunologist, a pan-immunological philosopher, in any case a „life-philosopher“ (Lebensphilosoph) who had learned by his teacher: the „life-philosopher“ (Lebensphilosoph) Schopenhauer.

[The Golden Turd]

A Pan-Psychotic Libertine of de Sade's tradition.

Wasn't what the op wanted, but it most certainly fits.

[gib]

A Pan-Psychotic Libertine of de Sade's tradition.

Wasn't what the op wanted, but it most certainly fits.

Oh God! It's not what I wanted! I'm fucking crushed!

(what is pan-psychotic?)

[Orbie]

it has to do with panning reality, and becoming totally disillusioned about what's out there, thereby turning psychic energies into a closed, rather than an open system. De Sade turned his mascochistic , self torture into an outward directed theatre of cruelty.

[Orbie]

It may work the other way too.Upstairs, where my dear beloved son took his life, the room has exhibited noises, as if someone was walking around up there. I went there yesterday, and noticed nothing out of the ordinary. But it is not coincidental, that lately, i have been exploring channeling, and have been thinking a lot about Nietzsche.that there may be something coincidental to this phenomena in a broader range.If Nietzsche was pan-psychic, it is just possible that his aura would cover a very broad range.

[Arminius]

Oh... I thought he was asking if Nietzsche was a "pan-psychotic"...

No, he said "panpsychic", but I don't know, whether he meant "pan-psychotic" ....

A Pan-Psychotic Libertine of de Sade's tradition.

Wasn't what the op wanted, but it most certainly fits.

Oh God! It's not what I wanted! I'm fucking crushed!

(what is pan-psychotic?)

Hello, Gib.

Please do not confuse the word "panpsychotic" with the word "panpsychism"!

it has to do with panning reality, and becoming totally disillusioned about what's out there, thereby turning psychic energies into a closed, rather than an open system. De Sade turned his mascochistic , self torture into an outward directed theatre of cruelty.

Hello, Obe.

Well done!

@ Gib

De Sade is not the only example for "panpsychotic".

[gib]

it has to do with panning reality, and becoming totally disillusioned about what's out there, thereby turning psychic energies into a closed, rather than an open system. De Sade turned his mascochistic , self torture into an outward directed theatre of cruelty.

obe, you can find meaning in anything, can't you

Please do not confuse the word "panpschotic" with the word "panpsychism"!

Oh great, now I have to figure out what "panpschotic" is.

Is that like a "pan-Scottish"? Like what would happen to the world is the Scots took over?

[Orbie]

Gib, for some obscure reason, i prefer Arminius comments. I would say You may be right, and not wishing to fall into the exclusive psychic interpretations which so much occupied Gobbo's forums, however, the distinction accorded between sanity and the supernatural, may be far less significant, than currently thought about. Anyone seriously considering a psychic course, having an unstable mind, may better beware, of the inherent dangers lurking there.It is beyond dispute, that certain patterns of occurrences, which border on paranormal, can be attested and widely read in Jung, William James, and others. Most people considering themselves sane, block any non rational occurrence to enter their awareness. Synchronous events have been widely reported, among many dealing with the supernatural. The consequence of it is usually a widely held disapproval, and a possible questioning of sanity among those, who would hold to such views.

Until the time where more definitive conclusions can be drawn, the supernatural will be delegated into the archives of musty folk literature.

[Arminius]

Oh great, now I have to figure out what "panpschotic" is.

Is that like a "pan-Scottish"? Like what would happen to the world is the Scots took over?

"Pan-Scottish" and "panpschotic" are a little bit related. Though I didn't mean "panpschotic", but "panpsychotic" (read my post again, please ).

Regards.

[gib]

@obe & Arminius,

So what is a pan-psychotic? "Pan" means universal or all-pervading. Pan-psychic means universal mind--as in, the mind of the universe. Pan-theism means universal god--as in, the universe is God. I can only surmise that pan-psychotic means the universe is crazy.

[Arminius]

Pan-psychic means universal mind--as in, the mind of the universe.

Although my first language is not English, I would say that the word "mind" means basically and thus mostly "spirit" / "ghost" ("Geist" is the German word for that), but "psyche" means basically and thus mostly "soul" ("Seele" is the German word for that). So "pan-psychic" means more "universal soul" than "universal mind".

But maybe the English language has cast off many Old-English words and especially their meanings, so that nowadays "pan-psychic" may be interpretated in that way, which you prefer, Gib. But I prefer the other interpretation.

Next lesson: pan-psychotic!

[Arminius]

End of night shift. I have to go to bed now. What's the time in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, Gib?

Regards.

[James S Saint]

In English,

the prefix "pan-" generally means "wide spread" or "all encompassing".
Mind ≡ the functioning of a neural network or brain, "psyche".
Spirit / Ghost ("Geist") ≡ Behavior, activity, energy of.
Soul ≡ fundamental architecture, design, function, definition or purpose.

Psychotic ≡ mentally disturbed, abnormally disconnected with reality.

So "Pan-Psychotic" would mean "wide spread, all encompassingly disconnected with reality" ≡ BBS.
BBS ≡ "Broken Brain Syndrome".

[lizbethrose]

@obe & Arminius,

So what is a pan-psychotic? "Pan" means universal or all-pervading. Pan-psychic means universal mind--as in, the mind of the universe. Pan-theism means universal god--as in, the universe is God. I can only surmise that pan-psychotic means the universe is crazy.

Man spoke to the Universe and said, "I am Me." The Universe replied, "Then I have no obligation to you."

Should the Universe--given this personification--have any obligation toward Man?

I don't think pan-psychotic means the Universe is crazy--I think it means that man is universally delusional. The Universe really doesn't give a damn.

Was Nietzsche a psychic? I don't think so, if a psychic uses ESP to reach her/his conclusions. Was he a philosopher for the world? Again, I don't think so--unless--unless--his words can be universally defined. But can they be? Have they ever been?

One thing, though, cannot be denied.

He had a magnificent mustache!

[gib]

Although my first language is not English, I would say that the word "mind" means basically and thus mostly "spirit" / "ghost" ("Geist" is the German word for that), but "psyche" means basically and thus mostly "soul" ("Seele" is the German word for that). So "pan-psychic" means more "universal soul" than "universal mind".

But maybe the English language has cast off many Old-English words and especially their meanings, so that nowadays "pan-psychic" may be interpretated in that way, which you prefer, Gib. But I prefer the other interpretation.

Suit yourself. In English, the word "psyche" means "mind". And I personally wouldn't distinguish between mind and soul--true, they do connote different notions, but as far as their referents are concerned, I think they refer to the same object.

End of night shift. I have to go to bed now. What's the time in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, Gib?

What's the time here? It's 8:05 AM. But I'll bet it's hours after you last posted, so that doesn't answer your question. I'd look at the timestamp on your post and tell you it was 5:49 AM when you posted, but judging by the timestamp on my own posts (5:25 AM for my most recent one) I can tell you that's inaccurate. From what I understand, ILP is a British website, so that's probably the timestamp of the server.

Where do you live anyway?

Man spoke to the Universe and said, "I am Me." The Universe replied, "Then I have no obligation to you."

Should the Universe--given this personification--have any obligation toward Man?

Not sure, but given that we are a part of the universe, I'd say the universe has an obligation towards man insofar as man feels he has an obligation towards himself.

(interesting--if man is conscious, and man is a part of the universe, that means pan-psychism is true ipso facto).

Was Nietzsche a psychic? I don't think so, if a psychic uses ESP to reach her/his conclusions.

Just to note: "psychic" in the term "pan-psychic" has nothing to do with ESP. Given that pan-psychism literally means the belief that the universe is conscious, and given that pan-theism literally means the belief that the universe is God, I'd say that "pan" is supposed to refer to the universe itself (which is different from what the term "universal" is supposed to denote) and "psychic" is supposed to refer to consciousness (or the mind).

I carry the same logic over for the term "pan-psychotic"--i.e. that it means "insane universe," but as it's a new term, I guess people can define it however they want. However, any man who believes in pan-psychotism probably is insane and you could probably very well call him "universally delusional."

He had a magnificent mustache!

Indeed! When will we ever see another philosopher with a mustache quite as refined?

[fuse]

Well, if we want to parallel panpsychism, panpsychosis must mean that psychosis is a pre-existing property of the universe.

(panpsychism = mind is a property of the universe or all things in the universe)

A Panpsychotic would be someone who holds this position about psychosis as a fundamental property of substance in the universe.

So "Pan-Psychotic" would mean "wide spread, all encompassingly disconnected with reality" ≡ BBS.
BBS ≡ "Broken Brain Syndrome".

If panpsychosis is supposed to mirror panpsychism, then reality just is, in some fashion, psychotic. It's not a defect, disconnect, or option but an inevitable feature.

[James S Saint]

Well, if we want to parallel panpsychism, panpsychosis must mean that psychosis is a pre-existing property of the universe.

(panpsychism = mind is a property of the universe or all things in the universe)

A Panpsychotic would be someone who holds this position about psychosis as a fundamental property of substance in the universe.

So "Pan-Psychotic" would mean "wide spread, all encompassingly disconnected with reality" ≡ BBS.
BBS ≡ "Broken Brain Syndrome".

If panpsychosis is supposed to mirror panpsychism, then reality just is, in some fashion, psychotic. It's not a defect but a feature.

Sounds like Quantum Physics.

[fuse]

So Quantum Mechanics is bullshit?

I jest. I hope to understand the fuss about QM at some point, but I'm still getting a hold of the basics first.

[Arminius]

In English,

the prefix "pan-" generally means "wide spread" or "all encompassing".
Mind ≡ the functioning of a neural network or brain, "psyche".
Spirit / Ghost ("Geist") ≡ Behavior, activity, energy of.
Soul ≡ fundamental architecture, design, function, definition or purpose.

In German, it is a little bit different:

"Pan" = "allumfassend" ("all encompassing"), "überall verbreitet", "weit verbreitet" ("wide spreaded"), "whole", "entire", "complete", "full" etc..
"Geist" = "mind", "conscience", "consciousness", "awareness", "esprit", "spirit", "génie", "intelligence", "intellect, "apprehension", "brain", "sense" etc..
"Seele" = "soul", "pysche", and in some sense: "mind" (=> "Geist").

So if I retranslate, I get:

"Mind" = "Geist", so: very much more than "Psyche".
"Spirit" = "Geist", so: very much more than "Psyche".
"Ghost" = "Geist", so: very much more than "Psyche".
"Soul" = "Seele", "Psyche".

Psychotic ≡ mentally disturbed, abnormally disconnected with reality.

Not "mentally" (at least not necessarily), but of course psychically.

So "Pan-Psychotic" would mean "wide spread, all encompassingly disconnected with reality ....

Yes, but - of course - psychically disconnected with reality.

It is possible to be psychically disconnected with reality and nevertheless be mentally connected with reality. When psychiatrists and psychotherapists speak about " psychosis", "psychotic", and so on, the mind is included, and when they speak about "neurosis", "neurotic", and so on, the mind is not or less included. I know that they think so, but I think that they are probably wrong because a psychotic is not necessarily disconnected with reality (think of the borderline psychotic and the borderline syndrome).

In English, the word "psyche" means "mind".

Unfortunately!

And I personally wouldn't distinguish between mind and soul--true, they do connote different notions, but as far as their referents are concerned, I think they refer to the same object.

Maybe in English - unfortunately -, but not in other languages, especially in German. In German there is a possibility to say - and thus: to think too - it in BOTH meanings. And that is an advantage, a benefit, a gain, a plus, thus a chance to choose is given by the language, so one can speak and think more differently. (By the way: there are two languages in history which are made for thinking: Ancient Greek and German.)

So if we have a look on Nietzsche's biography again, we may add his "psychography" and his "mindography" and put them into his five stages:

(1) childhood and youth, (A) no psychic symptoms of disease, (I) no mental symptoms of disease,
(2) from his youth till his „terminated contact“ with Wagner, (B) little pyschic symptoms of disease, (II) no mental symptoms of disease,
(3) from his „terminated contact“ with Wagner till his „Zarathustra“, (C) psychic symptoms of disease, (III) little mental symptoms of disease,
(4) from his „Zarathustra“ till his collapse, (D) much psychic symptoms of disease, (IV) mental symptoms of disease,
(5) from his collapse till his death, (E) very much psychic symptoms of disease, (V) much mental symptoms of disease.

I think, Nietzsche was able to put all his physical / bodily pain, his bodily symptoms as semiotic signs into linguistic and philosophic terms, axioms, theorems etc., and when he later tried to do the same with his psychic symptoms he could not do it in the same way, and when he at last tried to do the same with his mental symptoms he collapsed because mental symptoms as signs are too much like linguistic and philosphical signs.

[James S Saint]

Those differences in word usage is why we need Definitional Logic. Ancient Hebrew was designed to be extremely logical such that every letter had its own concept and a word was a combination of the concepts represented by the letters. To form a word was to "cast a spelling" in the mind, which is how we eventually got the idea of "casting spells". But their logic was based upon their premises/axioms. So today, Ancient Hebrew is useless for Science because the axioms in Hebrew are primarily pathos-spiritual rather than logos-material. Latin was largely logic based also, but led to Italian, Spanish, and French which are very pathos based, "romance languages".

Language and thinking tend to affect each other. So is German Science what it is because of the language, or is the language the way it is because of the thinking? And did Science form the thinking or did the thinking form Science into the particular form that it took. It could have taken a different form and yielded the same results. Measuring is what made Science succeed and that could have been from any language as long as it included detailed math.

It is hard for me to separate "psyche" from "mind". And "soul" doesn't even come into the picture, for me.

[Arminius]

Language and thinking tend to affect each other. So is German Science what it is because of the language, or is the language the way it is because of the thinking? And did Science form the thinking or did the thinking form Science into the particular form that it took. It could have taken a different form and yielded the same results.

The relationship between language and thinking is obvious, they affect each other. What effects the most, is an interesting question, but it is very difficult to answer.

Measuring is what made Science succeed and that could have been from any language as long as it included detailed math.

Yes.

It is hard for me to separate "psyche" from "mind". And "soul" doesn't even come into the picture, for me.

Yes, and that's not only, but very much because of the English language, which is your first language.

[James S Saint]

It is hard for me to separate "psyche" from "mind". And "soul" doesn't even come into the picture, for me.

Yes, and that's not only, but very much because of the English language, which is your first language.

I am Texan, English is my second language.

The phonetics of a "soul" in English relates to the same for "sole" (as in the sole of a shoe) in English and means conceptually the same thing; "that upon which the body is built". Scriptures often conflate "spirit" and "soul" because they seldom had a distinction between a concept (soul) and a behavior (spirit).