at some point in the future I’d suspect it will be possible to map virtually everything going on in the human world. Cameras will be able to ‘see’, computers will build and predict models of objects in the world, and will ‘recognise’ or distinguish between types of objects and behaviours of said objects.
What will freedom be, when they ‘know everything’ people are doing?
What other implications are there?
when computers and sophisticated machines can invent and produce all we need, what need of workers? …or large populations?
fMRIs are in the process of establishing a catalog of human brain reactions to words and pictures, plus emotinal reactions to recognitions. Organic computers are being built. What will be lost here is privacy.
You aren’t necessarily on the same level as those who are watching you. Birds have always watched people, sometimes to their detriment, such as to warn animals they’re hunting or in the case of vultures, to wait until they weak and isolated and kill them. It’s a problem, but it only affects my freedom from birds, not my actual freedom.
The subject of privacy and humility often go together. It seems you can only lose privacy to what you may feel humble towards. So I don’t know; either you see it as a nuisance but not something that would be humbling or restrict your freedom, or you see it as the acts of your betters, in which case you might want to ask yourself why you shouldn’t be observed by your betters.
Privacy issues are power issues, is all I’m saying. Unlike vulnerability and shame, humility doesn’t strike me as part of that equation, though if you’re very clever you could try to make a case for that.
Ierrellus
Interesting! Yea privacy is a major issue, not to mention; who controls it all, ~ I would assume security companies [and states] mainly.
If they could read thoughts too e,g, via quantum entanglement, our privacy of mind should be paramount e.g. you cant be arrested for thinking about killing someone. …but how can it!
everything we could potentially do also invites revelation.
I don’t Think I make the Connection between privacy and humility or what level I judge someone to be on in relation to me. I don’t want my idiotic neighbor to be able to Watch me having sex, nor do I want the world’s formost sex expert watching me have sex. And the core reason would be the same, though I suppose I might also have Another kind of reason not to want the latter to Watch. I wouldn’t want either one Reading my mail. I get very concerned when those in Power have access to Everything, which brings in issues other than privacy. yes, I don’t want some government bureaucrat sifting through my Communications to see if I am up to something illegal (or that might be seen as threatening to despots or oligarchies) since this would entail someone sifting through stuff I only want this or that person to read, but I would also be concerned about how this shifts even more Power to the government. This is especially true if I can’t read their private Communications. Imbalance in knowledge creates imbalance in Power. On a societal level this means they can put down resistance to shifts towards fascism, for example, much, much easier. In no way does this mean I Think they are my betters, except, perhaps in those tiny parts of me that buy the lie.
I’ve been making subtle arguments that go directly to the OP rather than the issue of surveillance itself.
Correct me if I’m wrong but it seems Amorphos was speaking to a more fundamental type of freedom than that concerning information that can potentially be used against one in a legal proceeding. The legal issues of privacy are those that I wouldn’t be so quick to try to put in another frame of reference - in that context I understand the debate is about balancing the desire for security and constitutional ‘rights’ and, as you say, the balance of power in certain regards. I have yet to find myself involved in such types of debate for lack of anything interesting or slightly controversial to add.
Basically what I’m saying is that if this argument was to be put in a pure legalistic context I would leave. But, we already have the complex philosophy of freedom and the complex philosophy of indirect forms of mind reading as part of the discussion.
OK, I can work with that. If I am taking it right it is something like
what happens to freedom when one knows that Everything is known about you.
For me it depends. If we take away the Power issues, and focus on it more as ontology, I have to, to make the thought experiment work for me, imagine that it is not mere behavior that is seen, but intent, emotional reactions, etc. If this is known to people outside my associations - watchers who know all about all of us Citizens and yet pose no threat to me - I am not sure it would make any difference. I would guess that the imbalance would bother me and I would want to see them. It would inhibit my freedom because that issue would take some of my energy and time. If everyone knew all, when they chose to ‘look’, again I Think I would be free. Very free. So much energy goes into to hiding, disguising, etc. What a relief.
Is that closer to a response to the area your are in?
I still don’t Think to much about betters and humility in this scenario.
OK, I can work with that. If I am taking it right it is something like
what happens to freedom when one knows that Everything is known about you.
For me it depends. If we take away the Power issues, and focus on it more as ontology, I have to, to make the thought experiment work for me, imagine that it is not mere behavior that is seen, but intent, emotional reactions, etc. If this is known to people outside my associations - watchers who know all about all of us Citizens and yet pose no threat to me - I am not sure it would make any difference. I would guess that the imbalance would bother me and I would want to see them. It would inhibit my freedom because that issue would take some of my energy and time. If everyone knew all, when they chose to ‘look’, again I Think I would be free. Very free. So much energy goes into to hiding, disguising, etc. What a relief.
Is that closer to a response to the area your are in?
I still don’t Think to much about betters and humility in this scenario.
When they can watch behaviours over long periods of time, I expect many things will become predictable.
Depends if we include ‘intent’ in our scenario?
As well as the authorities, you wouldn’t really want certain others knowing what you are doing; consider if you were a businessman, banker, research scientist or an inventor. There are many areas where privacy is paramount.
…but I cannot imagine a scenario where no one are allowed to watch you.
I would imagine such technology to be very much about power?
I never understood that either. I’m an open book, with the exception of inconsequential details, to all those who I don’t see as a dire threat. - I don’t see anyone I communicate with on the internet as a dire threat.
Yes.
It’s just that acts of nature need to be treated as such. If I’m going to humanize something then it ought to be an event that relates to humans I believe are of quality. I let the effects of surveillance come down to the barest pragmatic matter, that of value. What I value has a higher potential to be reduced if the wrong people know too much, but then value can go down for many reasons, the things of value in the world are always changing hands.
Maybe it hasn’t been brought up here by anyone else but the issue of humility and privacy is a common concern I hear. If cows are staring at you like they know you, do you chaise them away or do you learn to ignore them? I’d try the latter first.
Unless they’e fearlessly on the frontier of philosophy then they will never be able to predict those who are, accurately. - And besides they’re axiomatically not on the frontier, they’re of the establishment.
I would contest the need for privacy in any of those areas.
Yes, it’s about black mail or indirect black mail – making people anticipate the consequences of black mail to affect their behavior to someone else’s advantage. Legally speaking I very much recognize the risks. But, financially speaking, I don’t care, I don’t cheat on my taxes; I would feel very low to be so into my finances that I would want to hide them. Creatively speaking my works are always open for public collaboration, and credit is besides the point. When I market a product, it’s a product that was either invented by others or one that I never developed in secret.
Emotional black mail is the worst here and of course it can lead to anything from losing money to making unwanted alliances, voting, spending time with people they don’t want because they have the ‘goods’ on them. But, back to the cows; spend less time avoiding the discerning gaze and more time learning how little it can possibly mean to you.
Well, there’s work. Lots of things I cannot show, many honest reactions. And to me what is ‘inside me’ is nto merely information, but the emotions and their strength. So, I keep a lot of that private at work. It differs job to job of course, some I have been able to be very free, at least by comparison. Close relations are pretty much guided by my preference to let things out.
I get along well with cows, so generally they can look. If a cow came by mainlly when I was having sex and stared in the bedroom window, I would probably shoo the cow away, maybe get a dog. I mean, that would be a creepy cow. Alright, I’ll try not to get lost. Part of my Point is that cows, I’ve found, want to make sure I am not a predator, and I tend to like cows. But if a cow had an attitude and curiosity about my privacy, I may take issue with that. Watching is not simply receptive. I Think different looking ats have different effects, given the attitude of the looker. I don’t want most humans attitudes seeping into my private Life. They could be fairly dumb and robotic but my lack of respect would not mean I want that taint. I also wouldn’t want people getting off on what they see.
I suppose my sense of causation is a Little broader than what modern science currently acknowledges.
For the ones who are so advanced I am a cow, what the hell are they interested in? If it is science, find Another test animal.