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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:22 am
by fuse
Uccisore wrote:Machines can't replace me because I don't do anything.

Brilliant.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:41 am
by Orbie
brilliant but untrue. You would be the first one to replace. After all, a large percentage of people do nothing or next to it, but they would still have to be replaced, because they are the most voracious of consumers. Consuming machines would need to be invented to offset the supply demand curve, if do nothings would perish, or go on some kind of revolt. Either that, or dump excess supply into the ocean, but that harbors indelicate consequences to the morale.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:18 am
by Moreno
Uccisore wrote:Machines can't replace me because I don't do anything.
I have a couple of Machines that do nothing, so if you ever need a break I can post your replacement. Or I suppose we would simply consider them doing nothing for you here.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:23 am
by Moreno
Only_Humean wrote:Large herbivores are threatened everywhere. Humans want farmland, there's less to eat. Hunters want trophies, Chinese medicine wants ivory and hide. Maybe they could flourish in Siberia, or in a nature reserve. Horses do well because they're large enough and small enough and tameable enough to ride, and for the meat. Eohippus might be a good beast of burden.
Deer are doing very well in many parts of the US. In fact there are often complaints that they are doing too well.
My feeling is that the imperative to be happy is behind both pressures - happy as an emotion, a sensation, rather than a way of being in the world.
I would say that one is driven by feelling better/more oneself and the patholigization is aimed at the removal of emotions, not necessarily all of them, like the so called positive ones, but even these should be generally muted except when watching sports or winning a reality show.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:11 am
by gib
Moreno wrote:I agree with your conclusion but not your argument. Enhanced humans can oversee the Machines. AS the enhancement increase, the human is not longer human.


What do you mean by an "enhanced human"?

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:41 am
by Moreno
gib wrote:
Moreno wrote:I agree with your conclusion but not your argument. Enhanced humans can oversee the Machines. AS the enhancement increase, the human is not longer human.


What do you mean by an "enhanced human"?
Transhumans, genetically modified humans, cyborgs, humans with chip interfaces in their brains...and so on. IOW tinkering and tweaking and enhancing the human body more and more until it is no longer human. Nanotech will get involved, uploading of minds, the use of computer memories as memories in humans. You can google many of the terms I just threw in to see some of the possibilities. Overall, whatever can be seen as improvable, will be improved, sense organs, muscles, brains, immune systems, blood..... In steps we move from homo sapians to something that is entirely made. An artifact, though it may think of itself as human (or post human).

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:23 am
by gib
Moreno wrote:Transhumans, genetically modified humans, cyborgs, humans with chip interfaces in their brains...and so on.


I see. I thought by "enhanced" you just meant really intelligent humans--humans who were smart enough to manage the machines--and as technology gets more and more complicated, it will take more and more intelligent humans being to manage it--to the point where they are so intelligent, they aren't human any more. :lol:

But the cyborg concept makes a lot more sense.

Moreno wrote:IOW tinkering and tweaking and enhancing the human body more and more until it is no longer human. Nanotech will get involved, uploading of minds, the use of computer memories as memories in humans. You can google many of the terms I just threw in to see some of the possibilities. Overall, whatever can be seen as improvable, will be improved, sense organs, muscles, brains, immune systems, blood..... In steps we move from homo sapians to something that is entirely made. An artifact, though it may think of itself as human (or post human).


Well, what you've painted there is one possible scenario, one possible direction in which technology may evolve. I can see it maybe happening--sure--but if the question is what do I think will happen, I'd have to express a bit of skepticism about that scenario (it seems too fantastical to me).

The way I'm imagining this topic--the way I read the OP--is in terms of machines taking over human jobs--you know, like factory workers having less and less work to do because bigger and better machines can do the work faster and cheaper. Picturing how human cyborgs fit into that is little difficult--although I can imagine some scenarios--for example, why not surgically implant bionic tendons into one's limbs in order to move heavy object more easily, or to shovel dirt faster, but that seems such an erratic option compared to simply buying dumb stand-alone machines.

But of course, the labor market is not the only context in which we can talk about machines taking over human beings. We could talk about athletics. Hell, certain unscrupulous athletes already cheat by taking steroids and other performance enhancing drugs--why not integrate bionic technology into their bodies to make them run faster, jump higher, throw longer, hit harder, etc. Or what about simple lay people interested in the prospect of ESP abilities--it's possible, in principle, to communicate telepathically if only we could figure out how to integrate microchips into the human brain, thereby converting neuro-chemical signals into digital form in the microchips and from there into radio signals traveling through the air to be picked up by a recipient microchip in someone else's brain.

So I can see that; the question is, can such technology go so far as to completely replace humanity? Or will such a turn in our evolution be its own undoing, our own arrogant conceit deluding us into believing we know where all this is going and that we can control it, but in reality we're just fucking ourselves up to the point of going crazy and ultimately killing ourselves? Or maybe it's somewhere in the middle. Maybe humanity will eventually consist of those who refuse to take any part in the transformation (granting the free world continues to respect the human right to make such a choice), those who do take part in it (the cyborgs, the bionic men and women), and maybe even those who completely reconstruct themselves so that there isn't even a trace of their prior humanity left in them (perhaps, for example, someone who chooses to upload his/her whole psyche into a machine replica of his/her body and then dispose of the organic original).

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:36 pm
by Arminius
fuse wrote:
Uccisore wrote:Machines can't replace me because I don't do anything.

Brilliant.

obe wrote:brilliant but untrue. You would be the first one to replace.

Yes. Of course. I can guarantee you.

obe wrote:After all, a large percentage of people do nothing or next to it, but they would still have to be replaced, because they are the most voracious of consumers. Consuming machines would need to be invented to offset the supply demand curve, if do nothings would perish, or go on some kind of revolt. Either that, or dump excess supply into the ocean, but that harbors indelicate consequences to the morale.

Well said, Obe.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:24 am
by fuse
In case anyone didn't detect, that was a jocular "brilliant" -- as in "brilliant, we will defeat the machines by doing nothing!"

obe wrote: a large percentage of people do nothing or next to it, but they would still have to be replaced, because they are the most voracious of consumers. Consuming machines would need to be invented to offset the supply demand curve

Why?

obe wrote:Either that, or dump excess supply into the ocean, but that harbors indelicate consequences to the morale.

To whose morale? Man's or machine's?

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:43 am
by Arminius
gib wrote:If machines completely replace us (in the workforce, that is), human beings will be out of work. We'll revolt and destroy the machines before we allow ourselves to starve.

Excuse me, Gib, but this sentence attests to a naive belief. You really believe in a revolt of this kind of humans who - at least for the most part - don't know what's going on with them?

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:55 am
by fuse
So there's no stopping this machine takeover, huh?
Knowing all this gives us no advantage or alternative course of action?
When should we give it up and bow to our machine overlords?

My computer refused to shut down last night and I felt so helpless..

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:59 am
by James S Saint
fuse wrote:So there's no stopping this machine takeover, huh?
Not even knowing all this about the coming judgement day gives us any advantage or alternative course of action?
When should we give it up and bow to our machine overlords?

My computer refused to shut down last night and I felt so helpless..

You don't know to unplug it if you don't know that it is the source of the problem.

If those running your world were not certainly insane, there wouldn't be a problem with machines. If they were sane, the limits of machine use would be kept sane. But they very notably are not.

But your normalcy bias will keep you believing that they are sane and that everything will be just fine... even though everything seems to be slowly getting worse and worse and worse with no end in sight.

And interestingly, but predictably, the word is that "It's okay, technology will save us".

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:02 am
by fuse
When did I ever say everyone was sane? I just disagree that extinction by machine is inevitable.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:12 am
by James S Saint
fuse wrote:When did I ever say everyone was sane? I just disagree that extinction by machine is inevitable.

Well, I agree that it isn't 100% certain. The probability is just getting extremely high due to the blindness of it while propelling it further. If one isn't aware of the cliff that they are running toward, the probability of running off of it is pretty high, especially if they can see it until they can't stop. It is a fully loaded train going full speed down a hill toward a cliff with the engineer shouting "Full Steam Ahead!!"

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:28 am
by fuse
I mean, I'm just thinking, if you guys truly believe it's hopeless for the species, then you must be pretty resigned about it.
There may be some real dangers ahead and underway, but I don't see the point in acting certain about anything. I think there's some surprise yet to be found in the human will to grow and survive and I intend to focus on these possibilities and let it color my outlook. Lacking certainty, I don't see the point in the kind of pessimism I sense from others.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:36 am
by James S Saint
fuse wrote:I mean, I'm just thinking, if you guys truly believe it's hopeless for the species, then you must be pretty resigned about it.
There may be some real dangers ahead and underway, but I don't see the point in acting certain about anything. I think there's some surprise yet to be found in the human will to grow and survive and I intend to focus on these possibilities and let it color my outlook. Lacking certainty, I don't see the point in the kind of pessimism I sense from others.

"Ignore the warnings of the hurricane because it might not really happen at all. We can't be certain." = Normalcy Bias.

Normalcy Bias has been known about for centuries and used against the masses. It is now preprogrammed into social engineering computers. All of the Presidents speeches are prepared by others who use computers to choose what to say and how to say it.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:38 am
by fuse
I don't think I'm ignoring anything. Nobody in this thread has given me much to go on about what exactly is to come.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:39 am
by gib
Arminius wrote:Excuse me, Gib, but this sentence attests to a naive belief. You really believe in a revolt of this kind of humans who - at least for the most part - don't know what's going on with them?


They know when they're being laid off and they know when they're starving.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:41 am
by James S Saint
fuse wrote:I don't think I'm ignoring anything. Nobody in this thread has given me much to go on about what exactly is to come.

No one is as blind as those who don't know that they are blind, while insisting that they see nothing.

You have to think your way out of blindness. The eyes cannot see what the the mind ignores.

"They know when they're being laid off and they know when they're starving."

..yes.. when it is too late to do anything about it. You are proving the point.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:44 am
by fuse
James S Saint wrote:
fuse wrote:I don't think I'm ignoring anything. Nobody in this thread has given me much to go on about what exactly is to come.

No one is as blind as those who don't know that they are blind, while insisting that they see nothing.

You have to think your way out of blindness. The eyes cannot see what the the mind ignores.

"They know when they're being laid off and they know when they're starving."

..yes.. when it is too late to do anything about it. You are proving the point.

Look at your posts, all this vaguery and doom prophesy and now accusation when you don't even know me (or Gib).

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:51 am
by fuse
James, instead of being so sure that you know everything about the person with whom you're having a conversation, don't. Otherwise the conversation won't go very far. This is the problem with religious and political debates, too.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:53 am
by James S Saint
fuse wrote:James, instead of being so sure that you know everything about the person with whom you're having a conversation, don't. Otherwise the conversation won't go very far. This is the problem with religious and political debates, too.

I am not talking about knowing "the real you". I am talking about what you and Gib have said concerning yourselves. If you are lying, don't blame me for misunderstanding the real inner you.

..and everything is vague to those who can't yet see it... until it is too late to do anything anyway.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:01 am
by fuse
I wish you would do more clarifying and verifying instead of instilling and reinforcing...

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:11 am
by James S Saint
fuse wrote:I wish you would do more clarifying and verifying instead of instilling and reinforcing...

I can only try, but it has to start somewhere. I am not here to force belief, but to display the possibility and let people choose to deal with it or try to fight it. If they fight legitimately, the clarity comes. If they merely try to hide the possibility of it, they merely argue endlessly accomplishing nothing (eg. Bigus)... remaining blind... and promoting their blindness.

And that is why it becomes inevitable.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:27 am
by fuse