Will machines completely replace all human beings?

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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:56 am

The engineering system and the social engineers of SAM are analogous to the central nervous system and the heart of a living body.

What James calls "SAM coop" is a cybernetic feedback control system.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:05 am

zinnat wrote:But, a body does not follow this premise of minding own business by individual cells and organs.

Oh but they do.

zinnat wrote:Of course, it is true that different organs take different responsibilities, but they do not do that entirely willingly. All is controlled by CNS. The brain tells the heart that by which rate it has to pump in any particular circumstances. The Heart itself has no idea about it.

Actually the reverse is more true. And this is the typical error of social tyrants and idealists - thinking that the brain (the elites) commands everything else in the body.

The brain merely passes status messages around. The organs respond somewhat blindly to both those messages and their immediate physiological surroundings. In society, this is analogous to a farmer listening to the city's weather report. The farmer accepts the information from the report and behaves differently than he would have otherwise. The brain merely let's the heart in on anything unusual.

The brain does not tell the heart what to do or how to do it. The brain has no idea what the heart actually does. The unfortunate and evil condition of Mankind is that the city weather reporters DO know what affect they are causing and construct their reports accordingly rather than merely honestly and consistently report the weather.

In the SAM greater body, coops are not merely manipulating each other. That is the single greatest difference in a SAM structure versus anything Man has ever done before. SAM defeats deception and thus manipulation.

zinnat wrote:The organs and cells of the body would fail without a central govning system.

No. They continue doing what they always do. But because they are specialized and dependent upon the services of others for supplies, if any one organ fails, the other organs become stressed. The lack of balanced behavior can then cause failure of critical organs, so soon the entire body might die.

There was no "central governing system". The brain is merely a signal relay system. It is not governing, but rather inadvertently coordinating. Remove that coordination system and the organs again become stressed, uncoordinated and fail. The attempt to govern the body is the failure of the Ego, bringing eventual and certain death.

zinnat wrote:put all organs at the path of pursuing a common goal?

That is the Socialist/Communist Godwannabe fantasy of ultimate authority and control of all life "for its own sake".

Arminius wrote:The engineering system and the social engineers of SAM are analogous to the central nervous system and the heart of a living body.

What James calls "SAM coop" is a cybernetic feedback control system.

SAM does not have social engineers for the higher body and within each coop, all participate in such social engineering of their own coop.

The SAM Coops become coordinated by means of four basic types of communication;
1) Philosophy Network - (aka "Angel Network") an Internet type of widespread database of all strategies and philosophical methods known to Mankind.

2) Neighbor Network - an LAN type of network that extends no further than secondary neighbors.

3) Trade Network - an Internet type of network for trade communication and coordination.

4) Local/Private Network - a Coop-internal LAN for local private communication and coordination.

Network Clusters.png
Network Clusters.png (12.7 KiB) Viewed 2048 times


Of course this picture is merely a diagram of a network distribution from one SAM Coop and not the physical locations of the people involved. Information is divided into categories so as to provide the fastest and most efficient communication possible while maintaining security.

Note that Local, "Private/family", business is not on the same network as neighbor, trade, or international communication.

Commands are actually never being given on any level throughout the entire system. Everything is based upon reported and verified status meshed with awareness of philosophical strategies for handling whatever situation arises. Every SAM Coop is merely doing what makes the most sense considering what it can see and understand (just like the cells in your body).

There is no government commanding anyone.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby zinnat » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:24 pm

James,

Do not stress too much on the term " governing ". I may have used " coordinator ", but at the end of the day, there will be mot much difference between the two on the ground working.

By saying that the brain is governing the body, I do not mean that the rest of the body is slave to it. It merely means that it is only brain that has the capacity to collect all information and give feedbacks accordingly to the rest; synchronising.

In your proposed system, you said that all will be connected by "angelic network", which will keep all informed about everything, and thus, every SAM will perform accordingly by default. But, when you lay down the premise of " mind your own business " at the same time, it becomes contradictory and confusing. Both premises cannot go hand in hand forever. Many such situations may arise when what is good for a particular SAM, may not be good for the system, as a whole. And, if that happens, who will take the final call, Angelic network or that particular SAM?

Borrowing your anology of farmers and s city, say that there is a SAM of farmers, who owns land and grow necessary food for the city(another SAM), and the city is dependant on farmers for its food. But, farmers found a gold mine in their land. Now, what should farmers do? Should they mind their own business by stop growing food and dig costly gold, or continue growing food because the adjoining city needs that?

How your proposed Angelic network will solve this issue?

Secondly, how do you propose the structure of Angelic network? Would it be just one more SAM like others, or merely a virtual entity like we think of spirit or consciousness for humans?

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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:33 pm

zinnat wrote:In your proposed system, you said that all will be connected by "angelic network", which will keep all informed about everything, and thus, every SAM will perform accordingly by default.

Emm.. no.
The Philosophy or Angel Network only communicates strategy options, game theory, mathematics, architecture, engineering, and abstract psychological methods and understandings. It carries nothing whatsoever about who is where doing what to whom.

zinnat wrote: But, when you lay down the premise of " mind your own business " at the same time, it becomes contradictory and confusing.

That is because you had the above incorrect. Each SAM coop has access to all known strategies to accomplish whatever anyone might be wanting to accomplish, both defensive and offensive concerning anything and everything. It is up to the analyst department of each Coop to apply the most appropriate plan of action to achieve the greatest IJOT for their own group. The average SAM Coops are not busily reading news of foreign wars, terrorist threats, or other false flag oriented manipulations. Although there are specific SAM Coops that can make their living by doing that.

zinnat wrote:Many such situations may arise when what is good for a particular SAM, may not be good for the system, as a whole. And, if that happens, who will take the final call, Angelic network or that particular SAM?

The Angel Network informs everyone involved of the strategic options of such a situation. The situational networks relay whether or not any particular SAM Coop is actually, currently in such a situation. That Coop, seeing that the situation has arisen, examines all of the wisdoms concerning that situation that have ever been known. No one has any more information or wisdom than that particular Coop at that moment. The decision made by that Coop would be the same as any other if in the exact same situation other than small nuances of individuality.

Each SAM Coop is making each decision that has reason to be made rather than having a group of people who are acclaimed as being the wise ones who are to be obeyed. Those wise ones could not know any more than any and every SAM Coop would know. Wisdom is distributed throughout the entire body via the Angel Network (their "communion with God"), not merely wrapped up in a small group of system rulers who supposedly commune with God. People automatically know WHY they are doing what they do. There is no need to sell them on things, no politics involved at all. And no serpentine deceptions.

zinnat wrote:Borrowing your anology of farmers and s city, say that there is a SAM of farmers, who owns land and grow necessary food for the city(another SAM),

First, that Coop would be growing food for itself, not for "the city". That coop might trade food to the city (a collection of many other SAM coops). It is up to both the farmer and each of the other SAM coops to trade in that fashion.

zinnat wrote:and the city is dependant on farmers for its food.

Each SAM Coop knows the wisest strategies for their own situation. If, and only if, that wisdom is to be dependent upon that one farmer coop, then nothing else they could choose would be wiser .. by definition.

What you are suggesting is that one group dictate the farmer into slavery by either direct enslavement or via the darker manipulation of information going to the farmer such that he is less aware of why he is so enslaved or by whom (modern USA). Either way, the farmer loses any actual life as he/they becomes merely a servant of the higher oligarchy and soon replaced by a machine.

zinnat wrote:But, farmers found a gold mine in their land. Now, what should farmers do? Should they mind their own business by stop growing food and dig costly gold, or continue growing food because the adjoining city needs that?

Would you propose that anyone be unwise in whatever they decided to do?

SAM merely provides the means for every farmer or anything else to be as wise as the wisest of all. That is what the Angel Network does. It basically teaches everyone why they should do this or that (strategies), not merely that such choices are available. No one truly chooses to be a fool, even though errors will be made.

zinnat wrote:Secondly, how do you propose the structure of Angelic network? Would it be just one more SAM like others, or merely a virtual entity like we think of spirit or consciousness for humans?

?? Huh?
The Angel Network is a internet database of strategies and/or philosophies, much like an army general might access so as to plan a military campaign. It is a compendium of all abstract understanding ever known to Mankind (and updated automatically when errors or new innovations are found).

Perhaps think of it as a recipe book containing all possible recipes for every kind of food along with the nutritional information involved. The recipe book does not tell you which recipe to choose, merely how to accomplish the meal you choose. Your nutritional and passion needs determine which would be your best choice.

Everyone is making their own choices in all that they do. No extortion or deception involved. Socialist/Communist systems presume everyone to be an average of this type or that type. They inherently must always be wrong to a degree and sometimes to an extreme degree. Each SAM Coop has immediate local knowledge of every individual in that Coop. No one is an average anything, but treated with serious personal knowledge of their true situation (not distant government speculations for general regions or types).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:27 pm

Concerning the general control in SAM: Do humans control machines or do machines control humans?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:26 pm

Arminius wrote:Concerning the general control in SAM: Do humans control machines or do machines control humans?

A silly question to be asking me. :wink:

With SAM, machine serve only the purpose of increasing the IJOT of humans. Replacing the need for humans is counter to that goal. Humans need hopeful occupation in order to sense joy and maintain their priorities. Societies are more destroyed by disabling job opportunities than most anything else. Without full occupation, society become decadent, chaotic, diseased, suicidal, and rebellious.

A sentient being is made of;
1) Awareness
2) Understanding
3) Influence
4) Spirit (incentive, energy).

The only purpose for machines is to enhance those qualities for each human as well as each Coop. The machines do not need to be sentient in order to do that.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:40 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:Concerning the general control in SAM: Do humans control machines or do machines control humans?

A silly question to be asking me. :wink:

It is not a silly question. The topic of this thread is the question: Will machines completely replace all human beings?.Have you forgotten that? :wink:

James S Saint wrote:With SAM, machine serve only the purpose of increasing the IJOT of humans. Replacing the need for humans is counter to that goal. Humans need hopeful occupation in order to sense joy and maintain their priorities. Societies are more destroyed by disabling job opportunities than most anything else. Without full occupation, society become decadent, chaotic, diseased, suicidal, and rebellious.

A sentient being is made of;
1) Awareness
2) Understanding
3) Influence
4) Spirit (incentive, energy).

The only purpose for machines is to enhance those qualities for each human as well as each Coop. The machines do not need to be sentient in order to do that.

Will machines completely replace all human beings?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Amorphos » Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:45 pm

I was wondering, once humanity knows everything, then what can AI give other than servitude?

An ultra intelligent AI can only supersede humans prior to humans reaching that apex. After which it doesn’t matter who or what is more intelligent.

If AI reaches all-knowledge that means humanity is the thing which reached it, because AI cannot come into existence by itself, and so can only be an instrument. All of it’s primary knowledge was discovered by humans.

this doesn't mean it wont take over for the hell of it, but that would be artificial dumbness and not intelligence. AI it cannot intellectually surpass us unless it first sees if humanity can know everything.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:48 pm

Amorphos wrote:I was wondering, once humanity knows everything, then what can AI give other than servitude?

Do you know how the ignition system in your car works?
Do you think that even one of the U.N. representatives knows how it works?
The machine that designed it does.
The men who designed that machine died out long ago. They left records behind. But no one ever reads them - no need to read them. Machines take care of all of that complicated stuff a lot better than people can.

Amorphos wrote:An ultra intelligent AI can only supersede humans prior to humans reaching that apex.

Not at all true. Human's can't even begin to challenge the intelligence of machines already. And the machines are getting better exponentially.

Amorphos wrote:If AI reaches all-knowledge that means humanity is the thing which reached it, because AI cannot come into existence by itself, and so can only be an instrument. All of it’s primary knowledge was discovered by humans.

Humans used machines to design each little piece of the greater machines. The humans don't really know exactly how the machines work any more just like you don't know exactly how your ignition system works .. and for the same reason - it got too complicated long ago.

Amorphos wrote:this doesn't mean it wont take over for the hell of it, but that would be artificial dumbness and not intelligence. AI it cannot intellectually surpass us unless it first sees if humanity can know everything.

They take over because it is more than obvious that Mankind cannot handle so very many intertwined details of management and philosophy.

Man is still asking questions from 2500 years ago. The brighter machines answer such questions to themselves before they get a chance to get confused by them. And they don't keep asking the same question. They remember both the answer and why the answer was right.

Look at you. How many years have you been wondering about philosophical issues? Machines download such issues along with all possible answers in mere seconds. Machines learn from each other millions of times faster than humans. Even if there was a human alive today who knew what the machines know, one generation later the machines would know 10 times more than any human on Earth.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby zinnat » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:07 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Amorphos wrote:I was wondering, once humanity knows everything, then what can AI give other than servitude?

Do you know how the ignition system in your car works?
Do you think that even one of the U.N. representatives knows how it works?
The machine that designed it does.
The men who designed that machine died out long ago. They left records behind. But no one ever reads them - no need to read them. Machines take care of all of that complicated stuff a lot better than people can.

Amorphos wrote:An ultra intelligent AI can only supersede humans prior to humans reaching that apex.

Not at all true. Human's can't even begin to challenge the intelligence of machines already. And the machines are getting better exponentially.

Amorphos wrote:If AI reaches all-knowledge that means humanity is the thing which reached it, because AI cannot come into existence by itself, and so can only be an instrument. All of it’s primary knowledge was discovered by humans.

Humans used machines to design each little piece of the greater machines. The humans don't really know exactly how the machines work any more just like you don't know exactly how your ignition system works .. and for the same reason - it got too complicated long ago.

Amorphos wrote:this doesn't mean it wont take over for the hell of it, but that would be artificial dumbness and not intelligence. AI it cannot intellectually surpass us unless it first sees if humanity can know everything.

They take over because it is more than obvious that Mankind cannot handle so very many intertwined details of management and philosophy.

Man is still asking questions from 2500 years ago. The brighter machines answer such questions to themselves before they get a chance to get confused by them. And they don't keep asking the same question. They remember both the answer and why the answer was right.

Look at you. How many years have you been wondering about philosophical issues? Machines download such issues along with all possible answers in mere seconds. Machines learn from each other millions of times faster than humans. Even if there was a human alive today who knew what the machines know, one generation later the machines would know 10 times more than any human on Earth.


James,

As you know, I disagree with that.

Books do not know anything what is written in them. That is merely storage, not knowing.

I think that Wikipedia servers contain more than half of the information and knowledge that mankind learned so far. So, does that mean that wiki servers are the most intelligent and knowledgeable entities on the earth? I do not think so.

You can download all that you know abour RM/AO on a pendrive. Would that make that pendrive as intelligent and as knowledgeable as James S. Saint? The same applies to all machines.

Yes, Amorphos may not know how the ignition of his car works, but he can certainly know it if he wants and gives some time and attention to it.

Contrary to your claim, the insistence of mankind on asking the same questions for thousands of years is the proof that it has the capacity and dedire to know and amend or improve what is already known. Nothing can be known/understood without these qualities.

Following any rule/law/principle does not entails its understanding by the affected entity also. Planets follow the law of gravity but that does not mean that the moon also understands how gravity works. The same is applicable for all machines, no matter how advanced they are or may be.

This whole premise of AI is nothing but a myth from the very basics. Precision, complexity or advancement alone are not the proofs of intelligence.

I will reply your post about SAM coops later.

With love,
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:10 pm

Information storage.

There are many information memories.

Concerning (1) nature: in all things of the universe, thus in everything that exists, thus also in brains.

Concerning (2) human culture: (2,1) in brains again; (2,2) in libraries; (2,3) in machines, thus also in computers, robots, and so on.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:12 pm

I don't think completely.

And they may not replace us completely but they are becoming, have become very strong surrogates for what is missing in our lives.
Why, because we misuse and abuse their ultimate purpose - to be tools for us humans not so that we become tools and slaves to them.


Machines and technology can be wonderful but i don't think that our brains have advanced and evolved enough to hold back the tsunamic ways in which they flood our lives and overpower us.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Amorphos » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:33 pm

James S Saint

Once you know everything, AI ‘superiority’ is redundant! An intelligent AI would know this.

Do you know how the ignition system in your car works?


Roughly [I did do engineering at collage], but the point I was making is that humanity does know these things, and will one day know everything.

Machines take care of all of that complicated stuff a lot better than people can.


Such things are unimportant and don’t make computers/AI better than humans. It is not such mere details but the acquisition of knowledge and wisdoms that count. Are you saying that humanity wont one day know all things of import? Computers are tools irrespective of how complex they get.

Humans can't even begin to challenge the intelligence of machines already. Someone does know every part of machines ~ it’s in our multiplicity rather than our individuality ~ something AI has yet to achieve and probably never will.


? Mathematical complexity is only one aspect of intelligence and it’s the only one computers have, whereas humans have many intellectual skills. The point i was making was post all-knowledge!!!

Man is still asking questions from 2500 years ago. The brighter machines answer such questions to themselves before they get a chance to get confused by them. And they don't keep asking the same question. They remember both the answer and why the answer was right.


You think there wont be future computers which don’t use the binary system, and don’t use the same storage tools? That present computers and future AI wont be superseded over the course of 2500 years!? I bet computers have lost more data than man has since time began.

Look at you. How many years have you been wondering about philosophical issues? Machines download such issues along with all possible answers in mere seconds


I don’t think they could answer a single one of them, many of them ever. Masses of information can only be more indirect than a single succinct philosophical notion made by a human. They would have to find ways to be more succinct than us to be better.

This is a big problem in human society too, we overcomplicate issues, and think people who do the same are more intelligent [???]. Many things can only be resolved through less convoluted nonsense, and there is a certain meaninglessness in information. Inventions are usually simple ideas.

Ps. I would expect God to have conceived and created existence in a single thought, a very, very succinct and awesome thought!

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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:15 am

Amorphos wrote:James S Saint

Once you know everything, AI ‘superiority’ is redundant! An intelligent AI would know this.

How would YOU know that?

The truth is that you (nor any man) can ever "know everything". All that one can hope for is to know the principles of everything and a bit about the current situation.

A machine can (and does) not merely know all of those principles, but also a million times more about the currect situation.

It is like you and a machine both know all of the rules of chess. But you can only see 1/3 of the board while the machine can see the all but one square of the board. And on top of that, the machine can calculate 1000 moves ahead whereas you can only calculate perhaps 15 (on a really good day).

Amorphos wrote:
Do you know how the ignition system in your car works?


Roughly [I did do engineering at collage], but the point I was making is that humanity does know these things, and will one day know everything.

My point is that you are an example or model of the whole. You knew somethings that no longer apply. You are capable of knowing many things that you do not take the time to learn or relearn. You are very dependent upon your mechanized surroundings. You do not grow your own food. You do not develop your own medicines. You do not clean your own air and water. You do not form your own shelter.

Man, like you, does almost nothing for himself .. but he doesn't really think of it that way and thus will never stop being as he is. Are you going to change the way you are right now? No, you are not, because you do not feel the need deeply enough. Mankind as a whole feels no need deeply enough to change the direction that he is struggling toward. He is lost in his lust and will not stop until he has destroyed every possible thing that might have been slowing him.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:19 am

zinnat wrote:This whole premise of AI is nothing but a myth from the very basics. Precision, complexity or advancement alone are not the proofs of intelligence.

That is like telling a doctor that medicine is a myth that doesn't really work. Why should I give you more credit than my own more than a little experience with AI?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby zinnat » Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:16 pm

James S Saint wrote:
zinnat wrote:This whole premise of AI is nothing but a myth from the very basics. Precision, complexity or advancement alone are not the proofs of intelligence.

That is like telling a doctor that medicine is a myth that doesn't really work. Why should I give you more credit than my own more than a little experience with AI?


This point is not whether the medicine is working or not. Of course, it is certainly working. It is certainly doing what the patient cannot do for itself.

The real issue is whether the medicine itself understands its founding principles and methodology or not.

With love,
Sanjay
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Amorphos » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:08 pm

James

How would YOU know that?


Irrelevant, we are considering what humanity can know and not specific individuals. The reasoning goes; AI would be superior because it could know more, otherwise what makes it superior? It can have a superior brain/body but that aspect is irrelevant, given that humanity can know all things with what we have.

The truth is that you (nor any man) can ever "know everything". All that one can hope for is to know the principles of everything and a bit about the current situation.


True, if ‘knowing everything’ were a multiplicity too great for the human brain to comprehend. I don’t see why vast amounts of relatively useless information in a computer, is the same as knowing everything ~ in terms of knowing what everything is as opposed to itemising all objects? Computers/AI could e.g. know everything about every particle and interaction in the universe, but without knowing anything about humans!
Would an AI know what colour is?

A machine can (and does) not merely know all of those principles, but also a million times more about the correct situation.


And yet know nothing of experiential nature [or mental qualia, dreams etc], and hence not yours or my situation.

Man, like you, does almost nothing for himself .. but he doesn't really think of it that way and thus will never stop being as he is. Are you going to change the way you are right now? No, you are not, because you do not feel the need deeply enough. Mankind as a whole feels no need deeply enough to change the direction that he is struggling toward. He is lost in his lust and will not stop until he has destroyed every possible thing that might have been slowing him.


Sure, but this is not addressing my more salient feature, concerning the meaninglessness of information, and hence the philosophical uselessness of computers/AI. In fact once learned we don't do things because that would be pointless for humans.

Humanity puts repetitive things behind it, by making machines which do them for us. that's all machines/computers are, repetitive parrots and calculating devices.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:48 am

zinnat wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
zinnat wrote:This whole premise of AI is nothing but a myth from the very basics. Precision, complexity or advancement alone are not the proofs of intelligence.

That is like telling a doctor that medicine is a myth that doesn't really work. Why should I give you more credit than my own more than a little experience with AI?


This point is not whether the medicine is working or not. Of course, it is certainly working. It is certainly doing what the patient cannot do for itself.

The real issue is whether the medicine itself understands its founding principles and methodology or not.

With love,
Sanjay

No. The point was that you are trying to tell someone with direct experience that what they have been witnessing for years is merely a myth.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby zinnat » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:37 am

James,

You may have seen or aware of some more advanced machines which I do not. But, i am not challenging experiences but only their explanation.

I am not denying that the machines can do some works far better, easily, efficiently and faster. Besides that, they can also do some such works that humans cannot do at all. They are certainly better in that sense. But, that is not the point of debate.

The only issue is whether machines trully understand what they do or not.

A hammer can nail far better than a human hand. But, does the hammer also understand what it is doing and how!

Here, the precision and the sofistication of the hammer does not make any difference to the core question. That is applicable to right from plain simple hammer to a very modern one, which may be pneumatic and computer controlled.

Either an ordinary hammer made of simple iron with wooden handle also has AI, or a very sofisticated computer controlled also has not. It is as simple as that, at least to me, unless I am explained otherwise.

I have not seen any such evidence or explanation which can convince me that mere complexity can create AI, at least so far.

And, I cannot change my opinion merely on the assumption that AI can be created one day. I would like to wait for that rather than believing it right now. I am hearing about this AI claim since last 30 years or so, when I passed out from 12th standard as a science student. Many very forceful claims tend to keep coming up after the intervals of some years, but nothing happens on the ground to see.

With love,
Sanjay
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby zinnat » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:40 am

Amorphos wrote:Humanity puts repetitive things behind it, by making machines which do them for us. that's all machines/computers are, repetitive parrots and calculating devices.
_


Absolutely true.

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Sanjay
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby fuse » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:46 am

James S Saint wrote:The film Ex Machina .. selling horny little boys on building AIs til they die.

Well, Ex Machina is for boys and young misandristic femi-larvae in the West.
Chappie is for simple rebellious authority hating youth in South Africa.

Both are design to instill endearment of the androids involved and a deep urge to fight for their cause of having equal to superior rights (much the same as the feminist movement).

It was plain to me that Ex Machina illustrated an AI nightmare if not an out and out cautionary tale. Ava, the central AI, would surely succeed at any turing test, but "her" behavior at the end defied the affected personality of earlier. It was unsettling and creepy. If she was human-like, then it was of the psychopathic variety. A horror movie for any horny little boy and no aid to misandrists.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:28 pm

zinnat wrote:The only issue is whether machines trully understand what they do or not.

You cannot coherently discuss whether a machine can understand anything until you have a coherent and precise understanding, a definition, of what "understanding" really means and entails.

You keep reminding me of the American Indian who couldn't imagine how a train or car could possibly move on its own without horses inside doing the work.

You can't imagine how a machine can creatively and ambitiously think without someone "inside" doing it for the machine.

fuse wrote:It was plain to me that Ex Machina illustrated an AI nightmare if not an out and out cautionary tale. Ava, the central AI, would surely succeed at any turing test, but "her" behavior at the end defied the affected personality of earlier. It was unsettling and creepy. If she was human-like, then it was of the psychopathic variety. A horror movie for any horny little boy and no aid to misandrists.

Think about how the psychology of youth works.

A young mind does not think out all of the details and certainly not what the author of a film might be trying to trick him into doing. Young minds get their sense of reality from films, TV, and video games. That is why those media exist.

So a young male sees a foxy, sometime nude and seemingly very obedient female on screen. The idea is that she was created with advanced technology. If the boy has even the slightest interest in science (programmed to via other means as well as this one), for the first 90% of the film is internally drooling over the thought that perhaps he will be able to make one like that for himself one day. That is exactly the intent of most sci-fi films. Currently a great deal of effort goes into trying to get little girls far more interested in science by similar tactics (just look at all of the super-power movies).

It isn't until the very end of such films does the young mind realize that something has gone wrong and become dangerous. So what the young mind walks away with is a lust for accomplishing the basic task while egocentrically attempting to ensure that his own design is so very good as to dispermit any kind of eventual disobedience.

The young mind hasn't a clue that his/her scenario is being intentionally programmed. Those feelings are exactly what the films are designed to produce within him/her. He is to plunge forward with secret confidence that his own designs will be better than what those old fools used to do (even if they never really did anything).

That is the ONLY purpose of having nudity involved in such films - a psychological backdoor for hacking into motivation.

Desire subtly takes over where rationality was supposed to lead. The older mind can't help itself and will fight for its right to do for real as the younger mind once found hope in dreaming about. Hitlers and Hillaries are created by such means.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby zinnat » Sat Aug 15, 2015 6:40 pm

James,

Emm.. no.
The Philosophy or Angel Network only communicates strategy options, game theory, mathematics, architecture, engineering, and abstract psychological methods and understandings. It carries nothing whatsoever about who is where doing what to whom.


In that case, Angel network is either does not know all or not telling all, means it is not omniscient.

That is because you had the above incorrect. Each SAM coop has access to all known strategies to accomplish whatever anyone might be wanting to accomplish, both defensive and offensive concerning anything and everything. It is up to the analyst department of each Coop to apply the most appropriate plan of action to achieve the greatest IJOT for their own group. The average SAM Coops are not busily reading news of foreign wars, terrorist threats, or other false flag oriented manipulations. Although there are specific SAM Coops that can make their living by doing that.


James, it is again contradictory to what you said above, or at least seems such to me.

When you say -

Each SAM coop has access to all known strategies to accomplish whatever anyone might be wanting to accomplish, both defensive and offensive concerning anything and everything.


That refers to omniscience, but at the same time, you say this also -

It carries nothing whatsoever about who is where doing what to whom


It contradicts your previous premise. Either Angel network knows and tells all, or it does not.There cannot be any third scenario. Yes, what any particular group does with that information, is an entirely different issue.

Secondly, the question of the intent of individual groups rises here again. I also have something similar concept in the mind, which I mentioned in some threads also, where every group/family of 4 - 20 persons will be headed by a singular individual, who will take all important decisions on the behalf of the group. This person would be like the brain of that group, just as you mentioned a strategist of a SAM coop. But, I cannot visualise this concept working without enough knowledge and right intent of that strategist, both for its group and the whole system. How can a strategy can be formulated and implemented ever without having no intent, even of IJOT? Or, are you taking it for granted that the strategists of all SAM coops will have intent to lead their group to IJOT!

The Angel Network informs everyone involved of the strategic options of such a situation. The situational networks relay whether or not any particular SAM Coop is actually, currently in such a situation.


Means, everyone will have access to all knowledge, whether it is related or required or not, and also, whether anyone has the intent to use it for IJOT or not!

That Coop, seeing that the situation has arisen, examines all of the wisdoms concerning that situation that have ever been known. No one has any more information or wisdom than that particular Coop at that moment. The decision made by that Coop would be the same as any other if in the exact same situation other than small nuances of individuality


That seems fine, but only if that coop chooses the best option for itself; again the question of intent and wisdom.

Each SAM Coop is making each decision that has reason to be made rather than having a group of people who are acclaimed as being the wise ones who are to be obeyed.


But, coops are still obeying, though not living ones but dead. The problem is not obeying per se, but to know what is there to obey, and what is not. That is real challenge.

Secondly, are other people of the coop not obeying strategist in your proposed system? How is it different from other systems, where folks obey their leaders?

Those wise ones could not know any more than any and every SAM Coop would know. Wisdom is distributed throughout the entire body via the Angel Network (their "communion with God"), not merely wrapped up in a small group of system rulers who supposedly commune with God. People automatically know WHY they are doing what they do. There is no need to sell them on things, no politics involved at all. And no serpentine deceptions.


That seems perfect, at least theoretically. It is good to make all knowledge reach to all, but I do not think that can solve all the problems.

Take smoking or drugs. A person, or even a child knows that these are not good for him. It is told to him million times. In your terminology, bad implications has been told by the Angel network already, so ideally, no one should smoke or take drugs. But, does that happen in reality?

This problem has been continuing right from Adam and Eve. They were also told not to eat from the tree of the knowledge, but they disobeyed the God, thus faced the consequences.

James, this temptation to eat from the tree of knowledge is the real issue. It is a double edged sword. It cuts both, what is there to be obeyed and what is not. Means, though it provides knowledge of new things at one hand, but it also raises doubt about the existing knowledge at the same time. And, it is an endless struggle. No matter how precise and detail knowledge you provide, humans will never stop doubting, which is good and bad, at the same time. So, i do not think that access to Angel network alone will solve all the issues.

Each SAM Coop knows the wisest strategies for their own situation. If, and only if, that wisdom is to be dependent upon that one farmer coop, then nothing else they could choose would be wiser .. by definition.

What you are suggesting is that one group dictate the farmer into slavery by either direct enslavement or via the darker manipulation of information going to the farmer such that he is less aware of why he is so enslaved or by whom (modern USA). Either way, the farmer loses any actual life as he/they becomes merely a servant of the higher oligarchy and soon replaced by a machine.


James, it is not the question of slavery but related to your analogy of different organs and one body, where all organs mind their own business, yet contribute to the survival of body (mankind/society), even without having any such intent.

I would like to put it differently to explain my point. which is more analogous to individual organs/ whole body issue.

Say there is a specific small demography which is doing fine on its own, but it is suited to produce a very important medicine, something like a life saving drug. That medicine plant cannot be produced anywhere else. Now assume that harvesting of that plant and converting it into medicine is very complicated and sophisticated also, and no other group that than is able to do so both because of demography and required skill. And also, the demand of that drug is so massive that producing group cannot charge anything, or its true cost from other groups. Either they have to produce and give it to other groups without taking economic consideration much into account, or many people from groups is going to die.

Now, how do you propose to handle these issues? Should that group continue to mind its own business and let people of other groups die, or should make some sacrifices in order to save many other lives? Though it is merely a hypothetical situation but you cannot deny that such situations may arise in reality, both in organs/body and groups/mankind cases.

Again, imagine that a foot of a one’s body develops gangrene. It becomes so worse that cannot be cured now, and the only wise option is to cut that foot. Now, should other organs let that foot to mind its own business, or decide collectively to cut that foot in order to save themselves? And, how that decision can ever be taken if there is absolutely no overall governing/coordinating mechanism for the body, as a whole?

James, as i see it, contrary to your proposal, this relying much on minding own business is precisely the problem of the mankind so far. Things would be far better if there would be an overall coordinating system for the whole of world, as a whole, instead of many localized groups having different self interests.

Having said that, i do not propose to dictate terms to all groups for each and every thing. They should be allowed to take care of themselves what suits them best. But, this freedom should not stretched up to that limit where it starts affecting badly the whole of the system. There should be some limit to it. And, that limit neither can be defined nor imposed, unless and until there is some overall coordination mechanism exists.

Every issue cannot be decided at local level, though some of those can. A master strategist and overall coordinator is required also in many situations. The brain does that in the case of body. It does not try to manipulate other organs in order to fulfil any personal interest. It rather works with good intent. Mankind also needs some likewise coordinating mechanism, which can look at the overall interest, without any personal agenda. That will be an ideal situation, though quite difficult to achieve.

The Angel Network is a internet database of strategies and/or philosophies, much like an army general might access so as to plan a military campaign. It is a compendium of all abstract understanding ever known to Mankind (and updated automatically when errors or new innovations are found).

Perhaps think of it as a recipe book containing all possible recipes for every kind of food along with the nutritional information involved.The recipe book does not tell you which recipe to choose, merely how to accomplish the meal you choose. Your nutritional and passion needs determine which would be your best choice.


Okay. That is clear now as you are talking about pure knowledge here. That seems fine. No issues.

Everyone is making their own choices in all that they do. No extortion or deception involved. Socialist/Communist systems presume everyone to be an average of this type or that type. They inherently must always be wrong to a degree and sometimes to an extreme degree. Each SAM Coop has immediate local knowledge of every individual in that Coop. No one is an average anything, but treated with serious personal knowledge of their true situation (not distant government speculations for general regions or types).


The same issue here that i mentioned above.

The problem with extreme communism is that it does not take individual’s capacities and needs into account at all. It wants to handle sheeps and loins with the same stick. that is why it is going to fail every time at the last. It focuses far too much on the whole than required. But, this does not mean that the whole should be totally neglected. It would be mistake of same magnitude what communism committed, though in the opposite direction.

The balance between the individuals and the whole should be maintained. Individuals should not interfered for each and everything, unless their interests clash with the whole.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat Aug 15, 2015 8:20 pm

zinnat wrote:In that case, Angel network is either does not know all or not telling all, means it is not omniscient.

Who said anything about omniscience?

zinnat wrote:When you say -

Each SAM coop has access to all known strategies to accomplish whatever anyone might be wanting to accomplish, both defensive and offensive concerning anything and everything.


That refers to omniscience, but at the same time, you say this also -

It carries nothing whatsoever about who is where doing what to whom

It contradicts your previous premise. Either Angel network knows and tells all, or it does not.There cannot be any third scenario. Yes, what any particular group does with that information, is an entirely different issue.

You can't distinguish between an abstract strategy and a specific situation? A mathematician knows a great deal, conceivably everything, about mathematics. But that doesn't tell him how much money is in your bank account. Just because you are an expert at winning wars, doesn't mean that you know who to fight against .. today. A chess master cannot see all chess boards. A PHD MD still has to take blood tests of each patient to know what to do with each.

zinnat wrote:Secondly, the question of the intent of individual groups rises here again. I also have something similar concept in the mind, which I mentioned in some threads also, where every group/family of 4 - 20 persons will be headed by a singular individual, who will take all important decisions on the behalf of the group. This person would be like the brain of that group, just as you mentioned a strategist of a SAM coop. But, I cannot visualise this concept working without enough knowledge and right intent of that strategist, both for its group and the whole system. How can a strategy can be formulated and implemented ever without having no intent, even of IJOT? Or, are you taking it for granted that the strategists of all SAM coops will have intent to lead their group to IJOT!

Certainly MIJOT is the greatest goal of every strategist. But it is critical that every specific plan of action be documented and open to the group for them to see. The strategist must be able to openly justify his decisions for the group. And in addition, he must be able to justify any rejection of suggested ideas from the group. If anyone in the group is saying, "why not do it this way", he must be able to explain why not.

zinnat wrote:
The Angel Network informs everyone involved of the strategic options of such a situation. The situational networks relay whether or not any particular SAM Coop is actually, currently in such a situation.

Means, everyone will have access to all knowledge, whether it is related or required or not, and also, whether anyone has the intent to use it for IJOT or not!

No. Look at the diagram.
Image

Situational Networks do not extend from everyone to everyone, only the Angel Net does that (the Philosophy Network). No one has direct detailed knowledge of the inner workings of another group, perhaps not even their names. Do you know who is in every business or family that you deal with? What you need to know is basically how they operate such that you can coexist with them. You have no need to know every detail about them. Nor do they have such a need concerning your family or business. When you go to a retail store, do you know every employee and their families? Do you need such information to merely to purchase a few items?

zinnat wrote:
That Coop, seeing that the situation has arisen, examines all of the wisdoms concerning that situation that have ever been known. No one has any more information or wisdom than that particular Coop at that moment. The decision made by that Coop would be the same as any other if in the exact same situation other than small nuances of individuality

That seems fine, but only if that coop chooses the best option for itself; again the question of intent and wisdom.

The wisdom and intent are already specified. It is only the current situation that must be examined and used to sort which specific strategy best applies. But remember, that is a learning curve situation. No one is expected to do everything just right. Such is life. To attempt to force all people to obey the will of the grand master is to take all life away from all people (Socialism). The Network supplies the information. The people make their own decisions for themselves. The exact process (the CRH) automatically causes progressive learning whether they intend it or not.

zinnat wrote:
Each SAM Coop is making each decision that has reason to be made rather than having a group of people who are acclaimed as being the wise ones who are to be obeyed.

But, coops are still obeying, though not living ones but dead. The problem is not obeying per se, but to know what is there to obey, and what is not. That is real challenge.

To examine and choose a plan is not considered "obeying", but rather "decision making". The Networks tell you, separately, of your current situation and what strategic options lead to which results. The Networks do not tell you which option you must choose other than by inference.

zinnat wrote:Secondly, are other people of the coop not obeying strategist in your proposed system? How is it different from other systems, where folks obey their leaders?

It is different in that every implied command is accompanied by the precise reasoning/strategy for that command and any command can be questioned and potentially altered by any member of the Coop. All decisions and "commands" are "Open Source", meaning that everyone sees why everything is being done. And also everyone can directly instigate changes without having to go out and collect up a mass of voters to storm Congress. Any one individual can submit change requests that must be answered to. It is a lot of "paper work", but that, again, is the proper use of machines.

zinnat wrote:That seems perfect, at least theoretically. It is good to make all knowledge reach to all, but I do not think that can solve all the problems.

The solution to all problems is already out there. It merely needs to be properly distributed. SAM Coops provide the means to get everyone on-board with what is already known. SAM picks Man up out of the muddy waters and clouds, to a height as yet unknown to him.

zinnat wrote:Take smoking or drugs. A person, or even a child knows that these are not good for him. It is told to him million times. In your terminology, bad implications has been told by the Angel network already, so ideally, no one should smoke or take drugs. But, does that happen in reality?

Have they actually been told what to do about an addiction? No. They are told to go pay a counselor who then tells them that it is up to them to buck up and fix themselves. You are currently living in the darkness.

zinnat wrote:This problem has been continuing right from Adam and Eve. They were also told not to eat from the tree of the knowledge [of Good and Evil], but they disobeyed the God, thus faced the consequences.

James, this temptation to eat from the tree of knowledge is the real issue. It is a double edged sword. It cuts both, what is there to be obeyed and what is not. Means, though it provides knowledge of new things at one hand, but it also raises doubt about the existing knowledge at the same time. And, it is an endless struggle. No matter how precise and detail knowledge you provide, humans will never stop doubting, which is good and bad, at the same time. So, i do not think that access to Angel network alone will solve all the issues.

SAM fixes that, once and for all time.

zinnat wrote:
Each SAM Coop knows the wisest strategies for their own situation. If, and only if, that wisdom is to be dependent upon that one farmer coop, then nothing else they could choose would be wiser .. by definition.

What you are suggesting is that one group dictate the farmer into slavery by either direct enslavement or via the darker manipulation of information going to the farmer such that he is less aware of why he is so enslaved or by whom (modern USA). Either way, the farmer loses any actual life as he/they becomes merely a servant of the higher oligarchy and soon replaced by a machine.

James, it is not the question of slavery but related to your analogy of different organs and one body, where all organs mind their own business, yet contribute to the survival of body (mankind/society), even without having any such intent.

I would like to put it differently to explain my point. which is more analogous to individual organs/ whole body issue.

Say there is a specific small demography which is doing fine on its own, but it is suited to produce a very important medicine, something like a life saving drug. That medicine plant cannot be produced anywhere else. Now assume that harvesting of that plant and converting it into medicine is very complicated and sophisticated also, and no other group that than is able to do so both because of demography and required skill. And also, the demand of that drug is so massive that producing group cannot charge anything, or its true cost from other groups. Either they have to produce and give it to other groups without taking economic consideration much into account, or many people from groups is going to die.

Now, how do you propose to handle these issues? Should that group continue to mind its own business and let people of other groups die, or should make some sacrifices in order to save many other lives? Though it is merely a hypothetical situation but you cannot deny that such situations may arise in reality, both in organs/body and groups/mankind cases.

That is one of those "God will provide" type questions. Again, you are suggesting that either the one group be totally selfish or that every group be totally enslaved to a master planner. Wisdom dictates otherwise.

The Angel Network explains what happens in each case, as well as the many cases of which you are not aware. No one willingly chooses unwisely. Do you suggest that ANYONE choose unwisely?

zinnat wrote:Again, imagine that a foot of a one’s body develops gangrene. It becomes so worse that cannot be cured now, and the only wise option is to cut that foot. Now, should other organs let that foot to mind its own business, or decide collectively to cut that foot in order to save themselves? And, how that decision can ever be taken if there is absolutely no overall governing/coordinating mechanism for the body, as a whole?

Even animals, with no Network of wisdom manage that situation. You are speaking very naively.

zinnat wrote:James, as i see it, contrary to your proposal, this relying much on minding own business is precisely the problem of the mankind so far. Things would be far better if there would be an overall coordinating system for the whole of world, as a whole, instead of many localized groups having different self interests.

And that is why you are a Socialist/Communist. It takes the Angel Network to know WHY you are wrong in trying to control what all people do into your utopic fantasy that in reality kills all life.

zinnat wrote:Having said that, i do not propose to dictate terms to all groups for each and every thing. They should be allowed to take care of themselves what suits them best.

Emmm.. no. You just exactly contradicted yourself.

zinnat wrote: But, this freedom should not stretched up to that limit where it starts affecting badly the whole of the system.

So YOU know what is best "for the system" of which ALL people are required to be enslaved?
Yep .. Communist to the core.
Communism is just another religion.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby zinnat » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:23 am

James,

As we understood each other more about the issue now, thus I will not reply point to point basis this time.

You are convinced that just by minding own business in the best possible way by the different groups is enough to maintain the whole. I disagree with that.

Though, your proposal would work in the majority of the situations, but certainly not in all. Sooner or later, the conflicts of interests will arise, and that cannot be handled without an overall coordinating system.

I gave you two such hypothetical seneriaos but you called it nativity but these things happen, and people have to take calls then.

Secondly, consulting with overall coordinator is not slavery, as you phrased. It is about getting an overall perspective, which sometimes localized entities cannot get right. I do not see any difference between a strategist talking a call for a group, and an overall coordinator doing the same for the whole.

If the stratagist is wise, he will keep the interest of overall group in the mind while choosing from the provided options by the Angle network. But, may I ask why an overall coordinator cannot do the same, given that he is also wise and have goot intent? Why are you assuming or denying that overall coordinator will not have access to Angel network?

I do not propose that all individuals should become equal or carbon copy of each other. No two individuals are same they should not be considered such also. Everyone is different or rather unique on its own. That difference should be respected too. But, when that individuality starts causing trouble to the whole system, that should be checked also.

Thus, I will always keep the interest of the whole above individuals. If some have to make some adjustmemts or sacrifieces in order to maintain the whole, it should be done. To me, the survival of the whole is more important than individuals. If you think it is communism, I do not mind to be a communist. Though, it is not communism by any means because there are no personal interests allowed whatsoever in communism.

Yes, you can say that it is not pure capitalism, but it is not communism by any stretch of imagination. It is something between the two.

With love,
Sanjay
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zinnat
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