Will machines completely replace all human beings?

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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat May 10, 2014 3:12 pm

phyllo wrote:He's programmed but he overcomes parts of it and his humanity reappears. That happens in both the 1987 and 2014 versions.
Alex leaves, but then overrides his programming and detours from his current case to go to his house. He reviews the CCTV video of his accident and realizes that David saw his body and was traumatized. While watching the CCTV footage Alex overrides the programming in his brain and miraculously raises his dopamine levels back to normal, reviving his lost emotions towards his family.

. Alex's programming prevents him from arresting Sellars as he is also wearing a Red Asset wrist band, but he manages to overcome it with his own will and shoots, killing him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RoboCop_%282014_film%29

They are talking about him overriding his inhibitor. He can't kill the red marked corporate agents until he finally overrides it at the end and shoots the evil corporate leader. In all films, the humans always win in the end (even in The Matrix) and there is always a "good guy" cyborg/robot defending the humans against the evil corporate machines - machines against machines to save humanity, the programmed and to be accepted inevitability. If the machines simply lost due to superior humans, the machines would be the bad guys.

Science creates disasters that only Science can deal with, so Science is always the good guy (whereas Catholic priests are always corrupt and/or impotent).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 10, 2014 6:29 pm

They are talking about him overriding his inhibitor. He can't kill the red marked corporate agents until he finally overrides it at the end and shoots the evil corporate leader. In all films, the humans always win in the end (even in The Matrix) and there is always a "good guy" cyborg/robot defending the humans against the evil corporate machines - machines against machines to save humanity, the programmed and to be accepted inevitability. If the machines simply lost due to superior humans, the machines would be the bad guys.

Science creates disasters that only Science can deal with, so Science is always the good guy (whereas Catholic priests are always corrupt and/or impotent).
Do you expect the humans to put on medieval armor, get on their horses and fight the machines? They are not supposed to use the current technology?

The theme of the movies is : human overcoming machines and corrupt humans who support machines in spite of all that is done to control and manipulate him.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat May 10, 2014 6:56 pm

phyllo wrote:Do you expect the humans to put on medieval armor, get on their horses and fight the machines? They are not supposed to use the current technology?

The theme of the movies is : human overcoming machines and corrupt humans who support machines in spite of all that is done to control and manipulate him.

You are making the point that we have been talking about.

The film shows you that the machines are superior in every aspect, but people don't like the machines controlling their lives, so they try to use a human inside a machine and say that it is actually human, merely with a machine body. But because the human part, his brain, is too slow, they circumvent that part without him or anyone else knowing it so that he can seem human without being human. In the film it is illegal to do that, but as always, they find an excuse anyway.

And then to make YOU feel good about the machine-human mix, the cyborg, they write the film with a human-happy ending. They could have written the ending differently. So the film is relaying to YOU that "Yes, machines are superior in every aspect but we can make human-machine combinations that might get misused but that's okay because in the end, us humans will win the battle." YOU accept what they showed you in the film that humans will win in the end, therefore it is all okay.

But what if they merely wrote that ending that way to convince the viewers that it was okay when in reality, the human would never have been able to magically empower his will to override the implants inhibiting him? You are buying the magic they presented to you. "Yes, we are going to create a potentially catastrophe, but it is okay, because the magic will save you in the end."

The point of the news broadcaster in the beginning was to display how much they want to convince people of what that film just convinced you of. The film is telling you that you are going to be convinced as it is convincing you. That is how the media convinces you;
"Yes we are dangerous but in the end you always win anyway, so let us keep being dangerous. It's okay."

"Yes this product or service can be used in very evil ways, but the bad guys always get caught." - unless the bad guys happen to be the ones telling you that.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Sat May 10, 2014 8:12 pm

phyllo wrote:He's programmed but he overcomes parts of it and his humanity reappears.

Yes, but "his humanity reappears" probably because "films, such as 'I, Robot', are psychologically designed to instill a love for androids", as James said.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 10, 2014 8:13 pm

He's not an android.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Sat May 10, 2014 8:31 pm

phyllo wrote:He's not an android.

He doesn't necessarily have to be an android in order to release a love for androids.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 10, 2014 9:13 pm

He doesn't necessarily have to be an android in order to release a love for androids.
Are you guys for real?
Do you actually look at what is being shown on the screen?

Robocop 1987 : Programming flaw causes robot to kill a person during a demo of the technology.

Robocop 1987 : Murphy is killed and the remains of his body are used by the corporation to create the Robocop cyborg. He is programmed not to act against members of the corporation, even when they are involved in criminal activity.

Examples of promoting the love of machines, robots, androids? I don't think so. If anything, the movies are a warning about the misuse/abuse of technology.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat May 10, 2014 9:19 pm

Two other kinds of messages are subtly given;
1) Cyborgs save the day
2) Government can't trust cyborgs because of the tiny bit of humanity in them, thus use only robots.


And remember The Day the Earth Stood Still;
"Live the way we say, or we will turn Klaatu's robot against you and wipe out all of humanity."
.. 1992, 180 political officials from across the world (not the scientists or geniuses of the world) gathered at the UN and created Agenda 21, because "This is the future we want" [or else].

And even on top of that, they are redefining what it means to be human, the human DNA itself, "retroviruses" retrograding the masses. But that is okay, because "evolution is just natural", [regardless of how much we have to manipulate it].

In short, robots are the only thing that can be trusted by governments, but maybe cyborgs will win and it is all okay that humanity will no longer exist in the world we politicians want because evolution is natural.

The people making the new design and running the show are NOT the geniuses of humanity, but rather the most insidiously controlling; the wealthiest and the politicians.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Sat May 10, 2014 9:38 pm

phyllo wrote:Examples of promoting the love of machines, robots, androids? I don't think so. If anything, the movies are a warning about the misuse/abuse of technology.

I haven't seen that film, I have merely concluded logically, first and foremost psychologically.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat May 10, 2014 9:45 pm

The final scene is the happy family; Cyborg, pretty white chick, and happy boy.

phyllo wrote:Examples of promoting the love of machines, robots, androids? I don't think so. If anything, the movies are a warning about the misuse/abuse of technology.

Realize that they present the situation in the same way politics is presented;
A) Republicans screwing you
B) Democrats screwing you

You are given no third option. Yes, they show how one side is being bad, so of course you are to vote for the other side - screwed either way.

A) Robots ruling you
B) Cyborgs ruling you

Take your vote.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 10, 2014 10:02 pm

I haven't seen that film, I have merely concluded logically, first and foremost psychologically.
You watched the clip I posted?
Does it look like it promotes a love of robots?

If you watch other movies or TV shows, you can judge whether they promote a robot/android love.
Doctor Who : Neither the Daleks (mutated biological life inside a machine) or Cybermen ( consciousness transferred into a machine) are admirable.
Star Wars : Surrounded by technology, the Jedi knights fight with swords and believe in a spiritual Force which permeates all existence.
Star Trek : The human factor is invariable triumphant.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sat May 10, 2014 10:09 pm

Realize that they present the situation in the same way politics is presented;
A) Republicans screwing you
B) Democrats screwing you

You are given no third option. Yes, they show how one side is being bad, so of course you are to vote for the other side - screwed either way.

A) Robots ruling you
B) Cyborgs ruling you

Take your vote.
You are not required to vote. You can walk out of Robocop believing that neither robots nor cyborgs should be 'the future of law enforcement'. In fact, I think that Robocop says 'don't lose your humanity'.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sat May 10, 2014 10:15 pm

phyllo wrote:You are not required to vote. You can walk out of Robocop believing that neither robots nor cyborgs should be 'the future of law enforcement'. In fact, I think that Robocop says 'don't lose your humanity'.

And look at how much influence YOU have in the matter.

You don't have to vote for Republicans or Democrats either.
..but guess what.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Moreno » Sat May 10, 2014 11:07 pm

There are films that manipulate towards liking accepting robots, cyborgs, androids, but Robocop, the old one is not one. (I can't speak for the new version.) In the old one the man machine mix does defeat the pure robots, but he is presented as a kind of horror. No one would come away from that film with the urge to be a post-human. I robot is more mixed. YOu have evil robots and one main good one, if I remember right. Which leaves open the possiblity of making good ones. There is more of an undercurrent in that film of seeing a Group of robots as Another race, one with rights.

In Alien the cyborg is a bad guy.
In some TV shows, star trek spin offs they are good guys.

I see a mix out there.

But Robocop was made incredibly stupidly if the intention was to make the introduction of cyborgs and robots seems like good things.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Sun May 11, 2014 12:21 am

phyllo wrote:You watched the clip I posted?
Does it look like it promotes a love of robots?

No, but it wasn't the end of the film, was it?

That clip doesn't prove or disprove anything, although the first impression may be that it promotes a hate of humans who create robots - it depends on the reception, the receiver, the recipients: younger ones may hate robots, older ones may hate humans after their impressions of that clip. After all that clip doesn't prove or disprove anything.

Moreno wrote:There are films that manipulate towards liking accepting robots, cyborgs, androids, but Robocop, the old one is not one. .... But Robocop was made incredibly stupidly if the intention was to make the introduction of cyborgs and robots seems like good things.

So in the latter sentence you probably mean the new version of "Robocop", right?

But:
Phyllo wrote:If anything, the movies are a warning about the misuse/abuse of technology.

So in this sentence the old versions of "Robocop" is meant, althoug there were merely one old version?

Is there any agreement? And does only the new version of "Robocop" promote robots as "good things"?

I haven't seen any of this versions of "Robocop". So my questions contain no rhetorical elements.
Last edited by Arminius on Sun May 11, 2014 1:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun May 11, 2014 12:30 am

Nothing proves or disproves anything. Can't argue with that.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Moreno » Sun May 11, 2014 12:53 am

Arminius wrote:
phyllo wrote:You watched the clip I posted?
Does it look like it promotes a love of robots?

No, but it wasn't the end of the film, was it?

That clip doesn't prove or disprove anything, although the first impression may be that it promotes a hate of humans who create robots - it depends on the reception, the receiver, the recipients: younger ones may hate robots, older ones may hate humans after their impressions of that clip. After all that clip doesn't prove or disprove anything.
Yes, the humans who want to replace humans with robots in the film do not come off well. And yes, you hate them. The pure robots are so personalitiless hating them would be like hating a toaster. Now I have hated toasters on occasion - Ok, it was really a vaccuum cleaner and a blender that got my ire up - but only in the moment.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Sun May 11, 2014 1:42 am

Moreno wrote:
Arminius wrote:
phyllo wrote:You watched the clip I posted?
Does it look like it promotes a love of robots?

No, but it wasn't the end of the film, was it?

That clip doesn't prove or disprove anything, although the first impression may be that it promotes a hate of humans who create robots - it depends on the reception, the receiver, the recipients: younger ones may hate robots, older ones may hate humans after their impressions of that clip. After all that clip doesn't prove or disprove anything.
Yes, the humans who want to replace humans with robots in the film do not come off well. And yes, you hate them. The pure robots are so personalitiless hating them would be like hating a toaster. Now I have hated toasters on occasion - Ok, it was really a vaccuum cleaner and a blender that got my ire up - but only in the moment.

And what about the misuse/abuse of technology, Phyllo mentioned?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Moreno » Sun May 11, 2014 2:15 am

phyllo wrote:
I haven't seen that film, I have merely concluded logically, first and foremost psychologically.
You watched the clip I posted?
Does it look like it promotes a love of robots?

If you watch other movies or TV shows, you can judge whether they promote a robot/android love.
Doctor Who : Neither the Daleks (mutated biological life inside a machine) or Cybermen ( consciousness transferred into a machine) are admirable.
Star Wars : Surrounded by technology, the Jedi knights fight with swords and believe in a spiritual Force which permeates all existence.
Star Trek : The human factor is invariable triumphant.
Though in Star trek we do have a military industrial complex, a hierarchy. I don't Think it is Selling the replacement of humans per se, but it's not especially democratic. I loathe Star Wars, but from the Little I have seen it also seems to support Queens and hierarchies, though I am sure there are some mixed messages in there also.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Moreno » Sun May 11, 2014 2:18 am

Arminius wrote:
Moreno wrote:There are films that manipulate towards liking accepting robots, cyborgs, androids, but Robocop, the old one is not one. .... But Robocop was made incredibly stupidly if the intention was to make the introduction of cyborgs and robots seems like good things.

So in the latter sentence you probably mean the new version of "Robocop", right?
I haven't seen the new one. I likely worded it all ambiguousely. I mean, basically, that if the makers of the original wanted us to like robots and cyborgs, then messed up completely. So much so that they are probably confused about their own feelings. The films strongly, horrifically make both look like terrible ideas.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun May 11, 2014 6:48 am

Love the presented good guy or hate the presented bad guy and you have been hypnotically suckered into accepting the scene. All media works that same basic way whether news, films, commercials, or whatever ("there is no such thing as bad publicity").

Root for either side to win the war, and you have accepted that life is a war with the good guys and bad guys they present to you... endlessly and futily hoping for a victor to save you from the endless futile wars. In the mean time, someone is gaining great power over all you do, being fed by the wars they present to you (Caesar and the Colosseum - choose your favorite color). You have only to choose which of the sides they present to you to root for.

To win the war, you need to purchase greater technology. To purchase greater technology, you have to gain profit. To gain profit, you have to war against your poverty. To win the war against your poverty, you have to win the war against profiteering. To win the war on profiteering, you have to stop warring.

The only way to stop the wars is to stop fighting.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun May 11, 2014 4:04 pm

So in this sentence the old versions of "Robocop" is meant, althoug there were merely one old version?

Is there any agreement? And does only the new version of "Robocop" promote robots as "good things"?

I haven't seen any of this versions of "Robocop". So my questions contain no rhetorical elements.
Going by the summary in wikipedia and reviews of Robocop 2014, it seems that the human part of Murphy is emphasized more than in the original. He is also able to override his programming more easily.

The theme of both films seems to be very similar.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun May 11, 2014 4:13 pm

The only way to stop the wars is to stop fighting.
Please explain what this means in the context of technology, cyborgs, robots.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun May 11, 2014 4:56 pm

phyllo wrote:
The only way to stop the wars is to stop fighting.
Please explain what this means in the context of technology, cyborgs, robots.


Use technology to help clarify, verify, instill, and reinforce you individually, not you as a government.

Governing issues are not resolved by making the government more powerful. Governing issues are issues of wisdom, not power. Computers help very little with wisdom and not all that much with cleverness either, although they are great at presenting information with which you are free to be unwise and stupid.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun May 11, 2014 5:33 pm

Use technology to help clarify, verify, instill, and reinforce you individually, not you as a government.

Governing issues are not resolved by making the government more powerful. Governing issues are issues of wisdom, not power. Computers help very little with wisdom and not all that much with cleverness either, although they are great at presenting information with which you are free to be unwise and stupid.
I don't see how anything could be presented on-screen which would not prompt you to say that it promotes 'the war'.

It seems that 'The Matrix' shows technology being used to 'reinforce' the individual. But you have issues with that movie as well, don't you?
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