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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 5:39 pm
by James S Saint
phyllo wrote:
Use technology to help clarify, verify, instill, and reinforce you individually, not you as a government.

Governing issues are not resolved by making the government more powerful. Governing issues are issues of wisdom, not power. Computers help very little with wisdom and not all that much with cleverness either, although they are great at presenting information with which you are free to be unwise and stupid.
I don't see how anything could be presented on-screen which would not prompt you to say that it promotes 'the war'.

It seems that 'The Matrix' shows technology being used to 'reinforce' the individual. But you have issues with that movie as well, don't you?

I have "issues" with all films, but if you (or actually they) would do what I just said, they (with or without you) would stop promoting wars. And when they don't promote wars, wars don't happen. The masses have never started a single war in the entire history of Mankind.

Empower the individual people's ability to sustain harmony within their lives on their own and they will seldom find need to war with each other. That is what the whole "clarify and verify" bit is about. Without technology, their little brains can't get a clear picture of what is going on, so others use that against everyone while still not being able to do it for themselves.

Remove the misunderstandings, and the conflicts vanish.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:02 pm
by monad
Will machines completely replace all human beings?


If it happens it's only a formality since humans in so many ways already behave as if they were machines...of the least efficient kind. If it's a matter of losing our "humanity" there really isn't that much left to lose having seldom lived up to our own definitions of it in the first place. Whereas I would never have thought so in the past but maybe it is desirable to have machines replace humans after all.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:11 pm
by James S Saint
monad wrote:
Will machines completely replace all human beings?


If it happens it's only a formality since humans in so many ways already behave as if they were machines...of the least efficient kind. If it's a matter of losing our "humanity" there really isn't that much left to lose having seldom lived up to our own definitions of it in the first place. Whereas I would never have thought so in the past but maybe it is desirable to have machines replace humans after all.

I couldn't really argue, except to say, "What would be the point?"

What is gained by replacing humanity? It is much like a suicide, what is actually gained? One imagines a peaceful world, but for them, it doesn't ever actually exist.

The point to life is to support the living, not create a different version that might get along better in the future.. or might not. The future doesn't exist, nor anyone suffering in it.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 6:16 pm
by Orbie
maybe the question should be put the other way, what does humanity set to loose? Perhaps we are pre planned machines, anyway, planned to evolve and function, then self replicate, at first as cyborgs, then as robots; either exclusively, or concurrently. As long as consciousness is retained in plenum , defined as 'soul' what matter is it, what the current form of incarnation is?

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 7:59 pm
by barbarianhorde
Arminius wrote:If machines are cheaper than human beeings, then machines replace human beings.

Logical implication:

p = machines are cheaper than human beings.
q = machines replace human beings.
p --› q = machines are cheaper than human beings, thus machines replace human beings.

Truth table for a logical implication:

p | q | p --› q
t | t | .. t ..
t | f | .. f ..
f | t | .. t ..
f | f | .. t ..

We know that machines are cheaper than human beings, and we know that machines replace human beings.

But will all human beings completely replaced by machines? All human beings? All? And completely replaced? Completely? By machines? Machines?

What do you think?

:-k

Yes.

Or actually I am in doubt. But I will say yes. Yes, all humans will be replaced. Some by other humans, some by other machines, some by human machines or machinlike humans but in the end no one will be not replaced and machines have great lastability.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 8:03 pm
by barbarianhorde
No!

I changed my vote to no. Can I?

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 8:47 pm
by barbarianhorde
Machines do not love life. They will never flourish and thrive like plants. Mankind is a plantkind and machines are only the fruits of mankind. So ...

Image

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 8:51 pm
by monad
obe wrote:maybe the question should be put the other way, what does humanity set to loose? Perhaps we are pre planned machines, anyway, planned to evolve and function, then self replicate, at first as cyborgs, then as robots; either exclusively, or concurrently. As long as consciousness is retained in plenum , defined as 'soul' what matter is it, what the current form of incarnation is?


I view this metamorphosis more as a synthesis than some kind of hostile takeover. To some extent I do imagine it to be inevitable and the catalyst for that could possibly be the adaptation of future generations to space exploration for which our bodies are thoroughly unsuitable. What kind of psychic changes could be caused by both transformation and exploration can only be guessed at. Would we lose what is left of humanity or will it be embraced more holistically? Do we even need human bodies to be human?

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:04 pm
by barbarianhorde
We will see with great sharpness and zoom possibilities and we will have access directly by our braincommand to memory in all media forms we choose. And we will also have flying kits and our control of the glandular systems will give us far longer and happier and more grateful lives. But machines will never take over because they love to serve. We should praise the machine because in him, finally mankind has found an uncomplaining slave.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:10 pm
by barbarianhorde
We are only jealous of the people who come after us so we try to destroy their lives, like sandcastles.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 9:55 pm
by phyllo
I have "issues" with all films, but if you (or actually they) would do what I just said, they (with or without you) would stop promoting wars.
Do you have any examples of situations where you ended conflict?

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 11:09 pm
by Moreno
barbarianhorde wrote:Machines do not love life. They will never flourish and thrive like plants.
They might thrive like viruses.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:57 am
by Orbie
monad wrote:
obe wrote:maybe the question should be put the other way, what does humanity set to loose? Perhaps we are pre planned machines, anyway, planned to evolve and function, then self replicate, at first as cyborgs, then as robots; either exclusively, or concurrently. As long as consciousness is retained in plenum , defined as 'soul' what matter is it, what the current form of incarnation is?


I view this metamorphosis more as a synthesis than some kind of hostile takeover. To some extent I do imagine it to be inevitable and the catalyst for that could possibly be the adaptation of future generations to space exploration for which our bodies are thoroughly unsuitable. What kind of psychic changes could be caused by both transformation and exploration can only be guessed at. Would we lose what is left of humanity or will it be embraced more holistically? Do we even need human bodies to be human?


I think the era will be another dark age, like a big sleep. We would not loose the sense of what it means to be human, because technology will retain that in a programmed memory. I think the ability to access it would falter, but institutions dedicated to suspending it and reviving it would be delegated to a few keepers. My guess is, as far as human bodies is concerned, there may be options of multiplicity of forms to carry on. Cyborgs will only be afforded to those with enough wealth to purchase them, on promise of eternal life, however upon deaths of planets, these immortals will run out of steam due to increasing singling and diminishing of such creatures. Ultimately, the richest, wisest, and bravest man in the world will be truly eternal,and he may view himself as god, but sustain a pathos of eternal loneliness, hence privy to create another world. The socialist system will not afford such luxury, so capitalism seems to correspond best to such a scenario of survival of the fittest. Once he creates a world, and develop other lesser gods, this realm will again falter in a twilight of betrayal and confusion. Far fetched? We are half way there.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 8:24 pm
by Arminius
obe wrote:
monad wrote:
obe wrote:maybe the question should be put the other way, what does humanity set to loose? Perhaps we are pre planned machines, anyway, planned to evolve and function, then self replicate, at first as cyborgs, then as robots; either exclusively, or concurrently. As long as consciousness is retained in plenum , defined as 'soul' what matter is it, what the current form of incarnation is?

I view this metamorphosis more as a synthesis than some kind of hostile takeover. To some extent I do imagine it to be inevitable and the catalyst for that could possibly be the adaptation of future generations to space exploration for which our bodies are thoroughly unsuitable. What kind of psychic changes could be caused by both transformation and exploration can only be guessed at. Would we lose what is left of humanity or will it be embraced more holistically? Do we even need human bodies to be human?

I think the era will be another dark age, like a big seep. We would not loose the sense of what it means to be human, because technology will retain that in a programmed memory. I think the ability to access it would falter, but institutions dedicated to suspending it and reviving it would be delegated to a few keepers. My guess is, as far as human bodies is concerned, there may be options of multiplicity of forms to carry on. Cyborgs will only be afforded to those with enough wealth to purchase them, on promise of eternal life, however upon deaths of planets, these immortals will run out of steam due to increasing singling and diminishing of such creatures. Ultimately, the richest, wisest, and bravest man in the world will be truly eternal,and he may view himself as god, but sustain a pathos of eternal loneliness, hence privy to create another world. The socialist system will not afford such luxury, so capitalism seems to correspond best to such a scenario of survival of the fittest.

Both capitalistic system and socialistic system are not able to afford what is needed for them. The capitalistic systsem has always to fear the socialistic system, and the socialistic system can not exist without the capitalistic system. It's Hegel's "Dialektik". So this is merely possible with a "Synthesis" of both capitalism as "Thesis" and socialism as "Antithesis". There is no other solution in order to "manage" that - as long as history lasts (cp. my thread: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY).

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 9:05 pm
by Orbie
Therefore the entropy will stop at Kant's synthetic-apriori , right? Otherwise, how can a politically motivated synthesis be achieved unless internally motivated, or else it will be incorporated into an ineffective policy.

The seeming failure of Obamacare is a good example, though the word is still out on that.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 1:09 am
by Arminius
obe wrote:Therefore the entropy will stop at Kant's synthetic-apriori , right? Otherwise, how can a politically motivated synthesis be achieved unless internally motivated, or else it will be incorporated into an ineffective policy.

The synthesis is alraedy achieved, at least partly.

obe wrote:The seeming failure of Obamacare is a good example, though the word is still out on that.

That's more or less a national problem, the problem we are talking about and confronted with is a global one, although Obama is very much involved.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:48 am
by Arminius
barbarianhorde wrote:
Arminius wrote:If machines are cheaper than human beeings, then machines replace human beings.

Logical implication:

p = machines are cheaper than human beings.
q = machines replace human beings.
p --› q = machines are cheaper than human beings, thus machines replace human beings.

Truth table for a logical implication:

p | q | p --› q
t | t | .. t ..
t | f | .. f ..
f | t | .. t ..
f | f | .. t ..

We know that machines are cheaper than human beings, and we know that machines replace human beings.

But will all human beings completely replaced by machines? All human beings? All? And completely replaced? Completely? By machines? Machines?

What do you think?

:-k

Yes.

Or actually I am in doubt. But I will say yes. Yes, all humans will be replaced. Some by other humans, some by other machines, some by human machines or machinlike humans but in the end no one will be not replaced and machines have great lastability.

And then:

barbarianhorde wrote:No!

I changed my vote to no. Can I?

Nope.

Image

barbarianhorde wrote:Machines do not love life. They will never flourish and thrive like plants. Mankind is a plantkind and machines are only the fruits of mankind. So ...

So what?

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 2:02 pm
by cassie
Mechanization:
The techniques/technologies uprooting the cthonic spirit, detaching it from the ground, causing a split between the noumenon and the phenomenon.
This detachment is called "freedom", liberating the individual from its nature, its past, so as to allow him to become anything he wishes, within the premises permitted and considered useful, by what offers this technique/technology.

This detachment also cause a schizophrenic identity, where gene and meme conflict, given the Nihilistic nature of the provider of this technique/technology.
Logos becomes self-referential - solipsistic.
Art imitates art.
The artifices (technologies) usurp the natural, the past, the independent from human logos.

Identity is built upon immediate utility: the individual becomes a part of the machinery, finding in this role its self.
The machines simply accentuate and enhance this role. they make it more productive, harmonious with the others (compatible) - integration.

Ritual, behavioral rules, establish the limits of what produces parity.

The individual is separated from his kind, its nature, individuated, making him harmless, and more easily integrated into the machinery.
His individuality is symbolic because as soon as he is detached from his nature he grasps upon the first identifier presented to him, to root himself in the present, the modern.
He is a number, a name, with no reference outside the human artifices he is integrated within.

Specialization is his only avenue towards distinction, within the context of utility (production/consumption).
As a specialist he focuses an average intellect upon a discipline - dedicating himself completely - birth of the social idiot savant or the institutionalized autistic.
He require a average intellect because the precedent, the supporting structures, the data accessibility, the established methodologies, do not require innovation or creativity, only adherence and discipline (dedication).
He can now find self as a functional part of the machinery, proud only of his productivity and his access to consuming goods; ambition in ascending up the mechanical rungs to a higher place, one where he is less expendable.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 2:02 pm
by cassie
Mechanization:
The techniques/technologies uprooting the cthonic spirit, detaching it from the ground, causing a split between the noumenon and the phenomenon.
This detachment is called "freedom", liberating the individual from its nature, its past, so as to allow him to become anything he wishes, within the premises permitted and considered useful, by what offers this technique/technology.

This detachment also cause a schizophrenic identity, where gene and meme conflict, given the Nihilistic nature of the provider of this technique/technology.
Logos becomes self-referential - solipsistic.
Art imitates art.
The artifices (technologies) usurp the natural, the past, the independent from human logos.

Identity is built upon immediate utility: the individual becomes a part of the machinery, finding in this role its self.
The machines simply accentuate and enhance this role. they make it more productive, harmonious with the others (compatible) - integration.

Ritual, behavioral rules, establish the limits of what produces parity.

The individual is separated from his kind, its nature, individuated, making him harmless, and more easily integrated into the machinery.
His individuality is symbolic because as soon as he is detached from his nature he grasps upon the first identifier presented to him, to root himself in the present, the modern.
He is a number, a name, with no reference outside the human artifices he is integrated within.

Specialization is his only avenue towards distinction, within the context of utility (production/consumption).
As a specialist he focuses an average intellect upon a discipline - dedicating himself completely - birth of the social idiot savant or the institutionalized autistic.
He require a average intellect because the precedent, the supporting structures, the data accessibility, the established methodologies, do not require innovation or creativity, only adherence and discipline (dedication).
He can now find self as a functional part of the machinery, proud only of his productivity and his access to consuming goods; ambition in ascending up the mechanical rungs to a higher place, one where he is less expendable.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 2:51 pm
by James S Saint
A major part of the reasoning behind your replacement on Earth is the "wisdom" that consciousness is more important than body.

If any of you were asked of whether you would have your body replaced while maintaining your consciousness intact or you would rather have your entire consciousness replaced while maintaining your body intact, you would choose the former.

The problem is that such is a trick question, beyond the wisdom of those who ask it as well as those who answer it.

Throughout history, people have always accepted that the governance of their people (whichever type of governance that might be) is important enough to go to war to protect and live and die to protect. Each individual dies out while serving the social structure. And that social structure represents that society's "wisdom", its consciousness.

So even today, because people are still insane, the global society is to be protected at all cost. And that means that replacing all humans, modifying them, or simply getting rid of humans is all acceptable because the "wisdom" of the structure will be maintained. And nothing is more important than such a grand consciousness.. so they believe.

You are going to be replaced by non-human elements for the sake of maintaining a super-god consciousness. It is already happening without hardly any resistance.



The reason that it is a trick question can easily be seen;
1) Maintain your wisdom?
2) Maintain your body/health?
3) Other

Almost all manipulative trick questions can be spotted when they don't provide that third option which is always present.

And if you chose "body", I would ask, "Of what good is a body void of any wisdom?" You would be merely an animated robot.

But then again, if you chose "wisdom", I would ask, "Of what good is wisdom, if there is no body?" What good does it do to know something if you can't do anything about it?

Having only one or the other exclusively, is pointless. So one must presume that there must be at least a small bit of the other maintained. And the common thought is that as long as the consciousness is maintained, it is okay to have less of a body. But wouldn't that depend upon the wisdom to decide? What if the wisdom was that without a very significant body, there is no point in having wisdom? How would you even know? And that gets to my third option.

How do you know that the wisdom or consciousness that you currently have is the one that you wish to maintain? How does a society decide that the structure it has is the one to be maintained? If the body of people are being constantly replaced with others so as to support the same structure, no matter how silly the structure was, it will be maintained until defeated by something bigger than itself - war (of one type or another).

What if the best wisdom to maintain is the wisdom of maintaining the body that maintains such a wisdom of maintaining that same body - a self-supporting wisdom? In order to accomplish the goal of maintaining that exact same body, not only would the governance have to focus on exacting health issues, but it would also inherently have to be able to learn any other wisdoms involved in keeping its people alive rather than the simple-mindedness of merely replacing them.

In that way, the wisdom that is maintained is the wisdom that grows and also more greatly ensures that those living stay living. The body grows healthier as well as the wisdom, but only if the initial wisdom was one of protecting the body as it is, rather than replacing it.

Unfortunately, as you might be able to tell, such a thought is a bit too complicated to make clear in a time when political leaders have already chosen a new world in which political leaders dictate all life mostly through keeping people distracted and confused. As they have stated, "We WILL be gods.. period."

It is only because of blind God-wannabes that all of homosapian was lost.
Stop wanting to be a Goddictator and start wanting to be wisely maintaining your existing body.
- the wisdom that never got heard in time. But the androids will figure it out.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:01 pm
by Kriswest
Actually, I would not mind being cryoed for awhile just out of curiosity to see what happens to me and the world. My body sucks so hey I would go for a new one to play with. I would prefer to be cryoed for 500 years. I love adventure.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:21 pm
by backspace_losophy
Arminius wrote:If machines are cheaper than human beeings, then machines replace human beings.

But will all human beings completely replaced by machines? All human beings? All? And completely replaced? Completely? By machines? Machines?

What do you think?

:-k

I hope we'll at least ask ourselves the question of whether machines can be more than p-zombies before we decide to become them. Otherwise it would be a kind of suicide. 8-[

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 12:46 am
by Arminius
We will not decide to become machines, merely some of us, if they really can. In this case or other similar political decisions we should not use pronouns, not speak of "us", not say "we" because not we, but merely few powerful people decide, if they really can.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 9:33 pm
by Kriswest
You could always volunteer for the Guinea pig programs.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 12:22 am
by James S Saint
Kriswest wrote:You could always volunteer for the Guinea pig programs.

What exactly makes you think that asking would make any difference. Obama signed the executive order that allows any experimentation on the population as long as it is justified by "National Security" (which of course is anything and everything).