Will machines completely replace all human beings?

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Wed May 21, 2014 10:12 pm

James S Saint wrote:

The "service economy" was declared for America back in the 60's.
The East is to be the manufacturing economy.

Thus the West is to be female and the East is to be male.
..until they each get completely replaced with machines (women are no longer needed once there are no men).

"The East is to be the manufacturing economy"? "Thus the West is to be female and the East is to be male ..."?
Last edited by Arminius on Wed May 21, 2014 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Wed May 21, 2014 10:22 pm

Even though, the East can't afford to screw the the West because it is heavily invested in it, and would be shooting it's self in the nuts. The other thing is, a gross compensatory effort would be undertook by the females of the West, to defend their men, and would harbor in a new era of Amazon fighters? The East would capitulate in no time, their men taken into detention camps if not outright slaughtered.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Historyboy » Thu May 22, 2014 4:31 pm

Within 3 ... degenerations.
Life is will to power. - Nietzsche; Culture is and gives power and strength - Vollgraff; The only attribute of the mind is that he is powerful. - Aristotle; Mind is dragging us into the future and the heart into the present. - Aristotle; Those who can foresee deeds are born to rule and those who need to do them are born as slaves. - Aristotle; So, what is an aristocrat? He needs to be powerful, that means to be excellent in foreseeing things! - Me; The highest honor belongs to that one who is able to predict the moves of the enemy commander. - Machiavelli; If you want that what you have inherited to possess, you need to deserve it. - Goethe; Culture, which means exactly learning to calculate, learning to think causally, learning to prevent, learning to believe in necessity. - Nietzsche. [Autumn 1887, 10 [21]]; Morals in the narrow sense is the belief that the deeds of the ancestors will be transferred to the descendants. - Nietzsche
Historyboy
Thinker
 
Posts: 790
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:16 am

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Thu May 22, 2014 8:04 pm

Arminius wrote:"The East is to be the manufacturing economy"? "Thus the West is to be female and the East is to be male ..."?

You'll be happy to know that the EU is to be the intelligentsia.
But the Middle East, via the UN, is to be the governance (specifically Israel) determining the mindset and heart of the New Man ("We WILL be gods!!").
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 pm

Machines care for elderly.

Japan, which has the world's oldest population, has allocated 2.39bn yen (£14.3m) in the 2013 budget to develop robots to help with care.

BBC wrote:Toyota is developing devices to help carry the elderly or provide mobility support and Toli Corp has created a mat with a wireless sensor that can track and deliver feedback if an elderly person is moving around.

A special robot with 24 fingers has been developed for hair washing and head massage, useful if a person has limited arm movement. It is something Panasonic has also tried out in Japanese hair salons.

Image

Let's look to Japan in order to see what will happen also in North America and Europe soon. How man more people will than become redundant, unemployed. The maintenance area, the area of caretakers, which is currently booming in Europe, will then be mechanised.
Last edited by Arminius on Fri May 23, 2014 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Fri May 23, 2014 11:21 pm

From the late 70's

Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Arminius » Fri May 23, 2014 11:47 pm

    The robots of care and the robots of death: guess what the two could have to do with each other.
    Image
    User avatar
    Arminius
    ILP Legend
     
    Posts: 5732
    Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
    Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

    Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

    Postby James S Saint » Sat May 24, 2014 12:07 am

    Arminius wrote:
      The robots of care and the robots of death: guess what the two could have to do with each other.

      All betrayal arrives through servants. The more powerful the servant, the more catastrophic the betrayal.
      Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
      Else
      From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

      The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

      You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
      The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
      It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
      As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

      Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
      Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

      The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
      .
      James S Saint
      ILP Legend
       
      Posts: 25976
      Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby Arminius » Sat May 24, 2014 1:15 am

      When the servants have reached a certain percentage or even a majority of the population, they can not be stopped anymore. This is proved by life experience.
      Image
      User avatar
      Arminius
      ILP Legend
       
      Posts: 5732
      Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
      Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby James S Saint » Sat May 24, 2014 1:24 am

      Arminius wrote:When the servants have reached a certain percentage or even a majority of the population, they can not be stopped anymore. This is proved by life experience.

      And that is why religions and races play "the numbers game" with peasants.

      Androids play into the numbers game by removing all human races out of the servant position. But by doing that, the androids become the new race.
      Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
      Else
      From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

      The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

      You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
      The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
      It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
      As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

      Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
      Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

      The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
      .
      James S Saint
      ILP Legend
       
      Posts: 25976
      Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby Arminius » Sat May 24, 2014 2:37 am

      James S Saint wrote:
      Arminius wrote:When the servants have reached a certain percentage or even a majority of the population, they can not be stopped anymore. This is proved by life experience.

      And that is why religions and races play "the numbers game" with peasants.

      Androids play into the numbers game by removing all human races out of the servant position. But by doing that, the androids become the new race.

      But we should not say „new race“ because androids are not human beings, but machines of human design.
      Image
      User avatar
      Arminius
      ILP Legend
       
      Posts: 5732
      Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
      Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby James S Saint » Sat May 24, 2014 3:56 am

      Arminius wrote:
      James S Saint wrote:
      Arminius wrote:When the servants have reached a certain percentage or even a majority of the population, they can not be stopped anymore. This is proved by life experience.

      And that is why religions and races play "the numbers game" with peasants.

      Androids play into the numbers game by removing all human races out of the servant position. But by doing that, the androids become the new race.

      But we should not say „new race“ because androids are not human beings, but machines of human design.

      A race is a race. It doesn't matter who made the runners of it.
      Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
      Else
      From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

      The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

      You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
      The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
      It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
      As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

      Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
      Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

      The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
      .
      James S Saint
      ILP Legend
       
      Posts: 25976
      Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby Moreno » Sat May 24, 2014 4:59 am

      Arminius wrote:When the servants have reached a certain percentage or even a majority of the population, they can not be stopped anymore. This is proved by life experience.

      Oh, thank God. Imagine if most people were those rancid, inbred hemophiliacs with the white wigs, snuff and so much boredom they need to be cruel to get wet or hard.
      User avatar
      Moreno
      ILP Legend
       
      Posts: 10305
      Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:46 pm

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby monad » Sat May 24, 2014 5:46 am

      What's wrong with robots? They haven't committed any crimes and aren't likely to be religious, political or hypocritical liars. Why give them a resume of evil before their careers even started. Since there is so little empathy by humans for humans and robots unlikely to feel hate assuming there is no human contamination, I can't really object if that became the future. Far preferable to Muslims with Koran in hand taking over most of Europe in fifty years who are creating their own little robots programmed according to scripture.
      monad
       
      Posts: 389
      Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:26 am

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby Moreno » Sat May 24, 2014 5:52 am

      monad wrote:What's wrong with robots? They haven't committed any crimes and aren't likely to be religious, political or hypocritical liars. Why give them a resume of evil before their careers even started. Since there is so little empathy by humans for humans and robots unlikely to feel hate assuming there is no human contamination, I can't really object if that became the future. Far preferable to Muslims with Koran in hand taking over most of Europe in fifty years who are creating their own little robots programmed according to scripture.


      Neutral is monstrous.

      I would not let a neutral sentient entity be alone with my children.

      Robots will, in the end, do what the powerful program them to do AND/OR whatever 'who knows' behaviors they develop due to 'learning', glitchs in programmed, errors, failures to forsee and so.

      It's like giving a virus a nuke.

      I mean viruses are more or less machines. We might even make nice viruses that are intended to make our cells manufacture antibodies against dangerous viruses.

      I wouldn't let a virus babysit my kid, precisely because it has no human feelings.

      For the same reasons I do not want human made - read:flawed - empathyless, neutral machines to have a tremendous amount of power.

      They might kill everyone because it seemed logical to them.

      They might do it in error.

      They might do it with as much care and concern as we take turning on a light switch.
      User avatar
      Moreno
      ILP Legend
       
      Posts: 10305
      Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:46 pm

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby James S Saint » Sat May 24, 2014 7:15 am

      Imagine that the Dallas, Texas sheriffs in this video are androids obeying distant (possibly even foreign national's) directives;



      What chance would anyone have at all? No one could be "sued". No one in charge is even known, much less worried whether anyone got hurt. The androids certainly wouldn't care. And because of the myth concerning the massive anti-corruption programming, there would be no doubt that only the people were causing anything bad, because androids are programmed to not be able to cause bad.

      Currently the police are bad merely because by law, only the police can sit in judgment of the police behavior. In a legal contest between a citizen and an officer, even if found unquestionably guilty, the degree of punishment is entirely up to the police. In one case in Dallas, I think during the 90's, an officer was convicted of murdering an innocent man (by stomping on his neck after he had been strapped down). The officer then placed a gun next to the body and was convicted of planting false evidence. The officer, being guilty, was then sentenced: 6 months suspension.

      It is a formula for absolute power and dis-compassion over the people - Comply or Die (and its your fault).
      Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
      Else
      From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

      The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

      You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
      The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
      It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
      As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

      Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
      Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

      The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
      .
      James S Saint
      ILP Legend
       
      Posts: 25976
      Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby Lev Muishkin » Sat May 24, 2014 10:35 am

      James S Saint » Sat May 24, 2014 7:15 am

      Imagine that the Dallas, Texas sheriffs in this video are androids obeying distant (possibly even foreign national's) directives;


      Well - they sort of are doing that. Each of them is paid to obey a set of rules and commands, and to follow a set of endemic assumptions and ideological pathways of behaviour.
      It is would near impossible to program an android to do that. In the living case all you have to do is put an advert in the media for some thugs who like to follow a boss, and all the engineering and programming is pretty much automatic, you get a long line of naturally evolved automata that go further than necessary to do their job because (unlike an android) they pretty much enjoy breaking heads and giving out tickets.
      Why go to the expense to build an android, when you have a ready source of cheap, expendable biological organisms to do the job for next to nothing, who are self maintaing, and easy to mould.

      "Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
      "The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
      "A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
      " Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
      These just keep getting funnier.
      User avatar
      Lev Muishkin
      Philosopher
       
      Posts: 4037
      Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:58 am

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby Arminius » Sat May 24, 2014 11:15 am

      James S Saint wrote:A race is a race. It doesn't matter who made the runners of it.

      Then you mean it not biologically, but culturally. It depends on the semantics of a language, and in both the German and the English language both is possible: (1) "Rasse" / "race" with a biological meaning and (2) "Rasse" / "race"" with a cultural meaning. When I said "we should not say „new race“ because androids are not human beings, but machines of human design", then I meant the word "race" with a biological meaning, in a biological sense.

      In German you can say someone "ist rassig" ("is racy") or "hat Rasse" ("has race"), and that is an example with both meanings due to the fact that someone is racy or has race because of (1) biological attributes, or (2) cultural attributes, or even both.

      Machines are a product of human beings, they are not biological, but cultural. They don’t evolve biologically, but culturally. A technique / technology of a certain culture produced,produces, and will produce them, and that includes that machines can also be produced by other machines which are produced by human beings or by machines which are produced by human beings ... and so on.
      Image
      User avatar
      Arminius
      ILP Legend
       
      Posts: 5732
      Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
      Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby Arminius » Sat May 24, 2014 11:47 am

      monad wrote:What's wrong with robots? They haven't committed any crimes and aren't likely to be religious, political or hypocritical liars. Why give them a resume of evil before their careers even started.

      Because of the fact that this development is irreversible, especially then, when the machines take over. Don’t open Pandora’s box!

      monad wrote:Since there is so little empathy by humans for humans and robots unlikely to feel hate assuming there is no human contamination, I can't really object if that became the future. Far preferable to Muslims with Koran in hand taking over most of Europe in fifty years who are creating their own little robots programmed according to scripture.

      Yes, but don't forget Pandora's box!
      Image
      User avatar
      Arminius
      ILP Legend
       
      Posts: 5732
      Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
      Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby Arminius » Sat May 24, 2014 12:02 pm

      Moreno wrote:I do not want human made - read:flawed - empathyless, neutral machines to have a tremendous amount of power.

      Yes, but please don't forget that emotions have two sides: a good side and a bad side!

      Empathy belongs doubtlessly to the good side, but can easily be changed in its contrary.

      Moreno wrote:They might kill everyone because it seemed logical to them.

      Yes.
      Image
      User avatar
      Arminius
      ILP Legend
       
      Posts: 5732
      Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
      Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby monad » Sat May 24, 2014 5:21 pm

      Lets not call them robots in the first place which are nothing but mobile computers programmed by humans and therefore dangerous. In this discussion I was thinking more in terms of artificial intelligence machines created to eventually program themselves only more successfully then we have done to ourselves throughout history.

      As for Pandora's box, that been opened since Adam and Eve (figuratively) and never closed since then. Would AI make the world worse than it already is? I don't think so. The best thing one can say about humans is that they themselves are nothing more than malfunctioning machines.
      monad
       
      Posts: 389
      Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:26 am

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby monad » Sat May 24, 2014 5:33 pm

      Moreno wrote:They might kill everyone because it seemed logical to them.

      They might do it in error.

      They might do it with as much care and concern as we take turning on a light switch.


      Yeah right! I don't notice anything here that wasn't done constantly for the last ten thousand years. Actually one can add a few more "human defects" to this summary that even a robot wouldn't think of.

      Why do we fear intelligence machines so much in the first place? Could it because initially we would be "infecting" them with our own codes and if that's the case what then amounts to a greater evil, us or them?
      monad
       
      Posts: 389
      Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:26 am

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby Lev Muishkin » Sat May 24, 2014 5:40 pm

      70% OF HUMANS WILL BE REPLACED BY ROBOTS WITHIN 3 GENERATIONS?

      Puzzling assertion. Since 95% of humans are regarded by the economic system as expendable why buy an expensive android that you have to periodically replace, fuel, program, and maintain. Why not just use humans are throw them when they are too old.
      Humans are self sustaining and outlast all known machines.

      You have to ask who are all these androids serving? If you don't have any humans, why have robots?

      People have been making this sort of claim since the Luddites destroyed the weaving machines, yet it has not happened.

      "Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
      "The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
      "A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
      " Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
      These just keep getting funnier.
      User avatar
      Lev Muishkin
      Philosopher
       
      Posts: 4037
      Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:58 am

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby Historyboy » Sat May 24, 2014 6:51 pm

      Old people are socialists, so, they will develop a social system together with the machines which will replace their unborn children. That is the only replacement which will happen. And then when they die there will be neither machines nor people. end of story
      Life is will to power. - Nietzsche; Culture is and gives power and strength - Vollgraff; The only attribute of the mind is that he is powerful. - Aristotle; Mind is dragging us into the future and the heart into the present. - Aristotle; Those who can foresee deeds are born to rule and those who need to do them are born as slaves. - Aristotle; So, what is an aristocrat? He needs to be powerful, that means to be excellent in foreseeing things! - Me; The highest honor belongs to that one who is able to predict the moves of the enemy commander. - Machiavelli; If you want that what you have inherited to possess, you need to deserve it. - Goethe; Culture, which means exactly learning to calculate, learning to think causally, learning to prevent, learning to believe in necessity. - Nietzsche. [Autumn 1887, 10 [21]]; Morals in the narrow sense is the belief that the deeds of the ancestors will be transferred to the descendants. - Nietzsche
      Historyboy
      Thinker
       
      Posts: 790
      Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:16 am

      Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

      Postby Lev Muishkin » Sat May 24, 2014 8:22 pm

      Historyboy wrote:Old people are socialists, so, they will develop a social system together with the machines which will replace their unborn children. That is the only replacement which will happen. And then when they die there will be neither machines nor people. end of story


      How insane.
      As people grow old, they also grow conservative, and tend to leave socialist ideas behind wanting to preserve and justify their looting of the future economy with what they call "pensions".
      Old people are seldom, socialist.

      "Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
      "The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
      "A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
      " Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
      These just keep getting funnier.
      User avatar
      Lev Muishkin
      Philosopher
       
      Posts: 4037
      Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:58 am

      PreviousNext

      Return to Philosophy



      Who is online

      Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Peter Kropotkin