Will machines completely replace all human beings?

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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:48 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I say to my computer, "I love You". It is silent. So should I take silence as an answer?

You are one of those people who, by preference, will refuse to accept that anything is alive unless it bleeds organic blood. In effect, you are xenophobic.

But back to the consciousness thing, realize that even your PC can sense that something has been plugged into its USB port. It then attempts to identify "what has been plugged into me". It poles the device (which is most often a pretty simple procedure but can be very heuristically complex on secure systems) and identifies what type of device it is, perhaps a printer, mass storage, or monitor.

After such "remote recognition", it treats the signals to and from the device differently in accord to what it has recognized the device as being. It internally "thinks", "since I am getting this kind of signal from that kind of device, I should respond in this chosen manner". It can even tell when the remote device is misbehaving. Haven't you seen the little pop-up that tells you that your printer is having a problem? Have you ever seen it tell you that itself is running out of some resource, such as page memory? It is watching and recognizes many things and assesses how they should behave.

Your PC is truly conscious. But like intelligence, consciousness is not merely a linearly measurable property. It comes in great variety of colors and degrees.

It is trivial these days for an android to not merely recognize you as distinct from itself, but also assess that You are misbehaving, and not itself. And has the potential (currently being developed even more) to do that far better and faster than you ever will.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:54 pm

Consciousness requires remote recognition, not merely awareness.

And Self-awareness requires consciousness because it requires a recognition of the whole of itself. A simple PC has that degree of consciousness. It has an internal map/picture of itself versus other activities. The OS knows the difference between when it has initiated what is going on versus something else causing it. It watches itself. And it recognizes a printer versus a display or a DVD drive.
So you have the concepts of awareness and consciousness.

The OS interacts with devices but it doesn't know that it is interacting with devices. That requires the ability to conceptually step outside of oneself.
A machine interacts.
A conscious self-aware machine knows that it interacts. It also knows that it knows.

People are asking if that ability exists.

It doesn't exist now.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:55 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I say to my computer, "I love You". It is silent. So should I take silence as an answer?
Words are easy.

You have to touch the soul of the machine. :wink:
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:56 pm

Arminius wrote:
phyllo wrote:Why don't you respond to my query and we'll be done.

Because you don't like this thread as much as you don't like science, statistics, and intelligence.

Why are you writing in this thread? You don't like this thread. So why should I "respond to your query".

phyllo wrote:I ended up in 'no'. I'm actually in the 'silly nonsense - not worth discussing' column.

That are also your words. So your Silly nonsense - not worth discussing' column can also be called the "Stupid meaningless answer" column, or the "Dsiagreement without any argument" column, or the "I don't like this thread because I write in this thread" column.

Phyllo is one of our better "Zero credit snipers". He just pops in to quickly tell you that you are wrong about something (throw a stone) then darts back into the shadows, never giving credit when you are right about anything (that would require courage).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:16 pm

Phyllo is one of our better "Zero credit snipers". He just pops in to quickly tell you that you are wrong about something (throw a stone) then darts back into the shadows, never giving credit when you are right about anything (that would require courage).
You complain that I come in and leave. He complains that I'm not leaving.

In the future, I'll give you credit when you are right. :wink:

In return, will you support all your claims with references?
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Lev Muishkin » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:24 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:
phyllo wrote:Why don't you respond to my query and we'll be done.

Because you don't like this thread as much as you don't like science, statistics, and intelligence.

Why are you writing in this thread? You don't like this thread. So why should I "respond to your query".

phyllo wrote:I ended up in 'no'. I'm actually in the 'silly nonsense - not worth discussing' column.

That are also your words. So your Silly nonsense - not worth discussing' column can also be called the "Stupid meaningless answer" column, or the "Dsiagreement without any argument" column, or the "I don't like this thread because I write in this thread" column.

Phyllo is one of our better "Zero credit snipers". He just pops in to quickly tell you that you are wrong about something (throw a stone) then darts back into the shadows, never giving credit when you are right about anything (that would require courage).


I thought that was YOU!

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Lev Muishkin » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:25 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I say to my computer, "I love You". It is silent. So should I take silence as an answer?


Yes, the computer doesn't like you either!!

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:26 pm

phyllo wrote:In the future, I'll give you credit when you are right. :wink:

That'll be the day.

phyllo wrote:In return, will you support all your claims with references?

My "reference" is almost always Logic. You can't handle it (as you have displayed quite clearly). Although unlike many, you are obviously capable, just too afraid of the conclusions. My references are not "THEY SAID..." or "My Mommy Told ME...". If you are afraid to think, I am not going to pacify your endeavor to avoid it.


Lev Muishkin wrote:I thought that was YOU!

You exaggerate when you use the word "thought".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Lev Muishkin » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:33 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Lev Muishkin wrote:I thought that was YOU!

You exaggerate when you use the word "thought".


QED. It is you!


You an crawl back under your rock now.

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:34 pm

phyllo wrote:
Consciousness requires remote recognition, not merely awareness.

And Self-awareness requires consciousness because it requires a recognition of the whole of itself. A simple PC has that degree of consciousness. It has an internal map/picture of itself versus other activities. The OS knows the difference between when it has initiated what is going on versus something else causing it. It watches itself. And it recognizes a printer versus a display or a DVD drive.
So you have the concepts of awareness and consciousness.

The OS interacts with devices but it doesn't know that it is interacting with devices. That requires the ability to conceptually step outside of oneself.
A machine interacts.
A conscious self-aware machine knows that it interacts. It also knows that it knows.

People are asking if that ability exists.

It doesn't exist now.





It's only a question of time, when it does. But as soon as that happens, 'IT' will realize it is not "It's Self". It will, in the last analysis, unable to do this, because it will not be able to differentiate 'It's Self" from the program, or the programmer. Hence, it will not be able to control it's own thought. Recognition of this will stunt the effect of such 'Knowledge'.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:39 pm

My "reference" is almost always Logic. You can't handle it (as you have displayed quite clearly). Although unlike many, you are obviously capable, just too afraid of the conclusions. My references are not "THEY SAID..." or "My Mommy Told ME...". If you are afraid to think, I am not going to pacify your endeavor to avoid it.
Logic?
You make all sorts of claims about 'them' and what 'they' are doing.
You make claims about what you have discovered in physics without providing any evidence.
:confusion-shrug:
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Lev Muishkin » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:42 pm

phyllo wrote:
My "reference" is almost always Logic. You can't handle it (as you have displayed quite clearly). Although unlike many, you are obviously capable, just too afraid of the conclusions. My references are not "THEY SAID..." or "My Mommy Told ME...". If you are afraid to think, I am not going to pacify your endeavor to avoid it.
Logic?
You make all sorts of claims about 'them' and what 'they' are doing.
You make claims about what you have discovered in physics without providing any evidence.
:confusion-shrug:


I don't think James would recognise Logic if it hit him in the face like a wet fish.


"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:44 pm

phyllo wrote:So you have the concepts of awareness and consciousness.

The OS interacts with devices but it doesn't know that it is interacting with devices. That requires the ability to conceptually step outside of oneself.
A machine interacts.
A conscious self-aware machine knows that it interacts. It also knows that it knows.

"IT" understands consciousness better than you.

phyllo wrote:People are asking if that ability exists.

It doesn't exist now.

It has existed for decades and is get more sophisticated every day.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:47 pm

phyllo wrote:You make claims about what you have discovered in physics without providing any evidence.
:confusion-shrug:

Like the God-denier, you do your coward thing and just say, "I don't see the evidence", regardless of what anyone has said (much like iambiguous).

Arminius,
There have been, and still are many who come to this site merely to attack people, not ideas. They have an excuse for not being able to distinguish toilet paper from nose tissue, people from ideas, maps from terrains, ontologies from realities, religion from science, or logic from speculation. It is largely associated with too much mother and not enough father along with serious neurological diseases throughout the West causing their heads to be too far up their asses to see the light, or distinguish shit from shinola.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:11 pm

I don't think James would recognise Logic if it hit him in the face like a wet fish.
I've been talking to him for years and it's more complicated than that. I think, in general, he does understand logic. His main problems come from his colossal ego.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:16 pm

"IT" understands consciousness better than you.
...
It has existed for decades and is get more sophisticated every day.

You are using the word 'consciousness' in a very different way than most people.

Typically, the concept of awareness (and self-awareness) is embedded in consciousness.
Consciousness is the quality or state of self-awareness, or, of being aware of an external object or something within oneself.[1][2] It has been defined as: sentience, awareness, subjectivity, the ability to experience or to feel, wakefulness, having a sense of selfhood, and the executive control system of the mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:19 pm

phyllo wrote:
I don't think James would recognise Logic if it hit him in the face like a wet fish.
I've been talking to him for years and it's more complicated than that. I think, in general, he does understand logic. His main problems come from his colossal ego.

To a little spider, even a bird is an egotist.

Stick to the actual topic and who is or isn't an egotist is irrelevant (since you can't distinguish it anyway).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Lev Muishkin » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:22 pm

This whole line of thinking: machines getting conscious is not relevant.
Machines are build by humans for humans.
Their propagation relies on the demand set by human economics.
Thus the replacement rate of humans by machine (NOT EVIDENT IN ANY CASE) is self limited by the number of humans.
Were a single human to ever be replaced by a machine that would be one less human to supply the economic demand for another machine.

There have always been more humans than machines, and despite the massive progress of machine design there is no sign that a single human has been "replaced" by a machine, as the human population continues to grow.
Machines can release humans to do other things, but no one is really going to call that 'replacement'.
And since humans do 'consciousness' so cheaply, what would a conscious machine be for; who would buy one; and how would anyone let it control the destruction of humans. It all a bit childish really.
Okay for Sci-fi but seriously?
Last edited by Lev Muishkin on Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:25 pm

Like the God-denier, you do your coward thing and just say, "I don't see the evidence", regardless of what anyone has said (much like iambiguous).
In one paragraph, you say 'don't take anyone's word' and then in the next paragraph we are expected to take your word.
I don't believe that stable particles would form in your RM theory. Your logic does not show that it would necessarily happen. You cannot provide any evidence that it does happen.

If saying that is cowardice, then so be it.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:30 pm

To a little spider, even a bird is an egotist.
It's a question of size. Your ego is so large it gets in the way of reason.
Stick to the actual topic and who is or isn't an egotist is irrelevant (since you can't distinguish it anyway).
You make assertions which are only supported by James S Saint. We are to take them as true and proceed to discuss the topic.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby Orbie » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:43 pm

Actually, logic is only part of the picture, the 'either' of the formula. The 'or' , is quite another matter. That is the non ego, the 'other', the machine. If two people interact, one is me, the human being, and the other? The other is a machine. It is not me. This object like other, may a well be a machine. It serves my purposes, and i try to program it as such. If it doesn't, then i will try to change it's program. The distinction between man and machine is becoming narrower. It will reach a point where Descartes' problem with his cogito, his ego, will not be merely a successful insight into the fallibility of logic, but a way to transcend this great divide of long passing.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby monad » Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:21 pm

Arminius wrote:
monad wrote:This thread no-longer holds any interest for me.

And why are you still writing here in this thread?

Do you know Phyllo? He has also no interest in this thread, although he is writing more and more in this thread.

Why don't you both search for another thread?

Do you know what "pharisee" means?

monad wrote:Re IQ ....

I am positive on IQ testing. It is partly right that there are some flaws in the method, but the statement that intelligence is not measurable at all is wrong. The correct measurement of intelligence depends very much on the statistics and on the long-term measurement.

B.t.w.: Your "sources" are full of egalitarian(istic) rhetoric.

You and Phyllo are against the IQ because you are following the communistic mainstream. That's dangerous.

IN US (the new USSR) and EU (EUSSR) "communism" and "socialism" are alraedy installed:

Image Image

Please search for another thread, because you both are saying that you are not interested in this thread, whilst you are writing more an more in this thread!


This is SO Stupid, so desperate (B.t.w.: Your "sources" are full of egalitarian(istic) rhetoric.) that IF you are German, I feel personally disgraced.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby phyllo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:57 pm

It's only a question of time, when it does. But as soon as that happens, 'IT' will realize it is not "It's Self". It will, in the last analysis, unable to do this, because it will not be able to differentiate 'It's Self" from the program, or the programmer. Hence, it will not be able to control it's own thought. Recognition of this will stunt the effect of such 'Knowledge'.
Yes, given time, a machine will gain consciousness. How much time will it take? It's hard to predict scientific and technological developments.

Humans in one sense control their own thoughts and in another they don't. I expect that a conscious machine would have similar partial control.
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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby LaughingMan » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:51 pm

And in their most supreme arrogance they became the very architects of their own demise.....










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Re: Will machines completely replace all human beings?

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:33 pm

phyllo wrote:
To a little spider, even a bird is an egotist.
It's a question of size. Your ego is so large it gets in the way of reason.

The fate of the insecure - Those who have never had confidence, can't distinguish it from egotism.



phyllo wrote:In one paragraph, you say 'don't take anyone's word' and then in the next paragraph we are expected to take your word.
I don't believe that stable particles would form in your RM theory. Your logic does not show that it would necessarily happen. You cannot provide any evidence that it does happen.
.
Stick to the actual topic and who is or isn't an egotist is irrelevant (since you can't distinguish it anyway).
You make assertions which are only supported by James S Saint. We are to take them as true and proceed to discuss the topic.

Pure fantasy (and of course still not on topic).
Given very many one on one invitations and opportunities, you still can't find a single flaw in the logic of that thing that you deny. You deny merely out of fear. It is too easy for the insecure to be deniers online. Confidence frightens them.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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James S Saint
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