Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

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Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 03, 2014 3:44 am

Nietzsche it is said was just trying to create a new morality or ethos of what he saw as the deterioration of the current ones.

His fatal flaw and error you see is that once the genie comes out of the bottle there is no way to bring it back inside again.

Once moral nihilism is realized all re-emergences of so called morality or ethics are stopped dead in their tracks. They can be nothing more.

Once moral and ethical systems deteriorate breaking down altogether there is no way to recover them or make an entirely new set.

For this moral nihilism is inescapable, unavoidable, and inevitable.

His fears of moral nihilism and trying to overcome them were flawed. Moral nihilism should be embraced instead.

There is nothing to be feared or overcomed. There is only the embrace of moral nihilism which is the natural expression of this existence.

Concerning the slaves of the world they also will eventually come to realise moral nihilism as there will come a time where the irrelevancy of morality, ethics, law, and authority will be finally exposed in plain sight everywhere.

When that happens a new perception will emerge and it shall be do whatever thou shall will where all imposed limitations or interventions will be no more.

Creative destruction then will be prevalent once again worldwide. More importantly the natural expression of anarchy will find itself prevalent around the world once again.

Sure, there will always be those who seek to have the order and rules over others but once moral nihilism removes the carrot and stick of morality out of their arsenal their ability to control others will forever be diminished never to be returned ever again. Moral nihilism in this regard becomes a double edged blade.
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Tyler Durden's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Sauwelios » Sat May 03, 2014 6:55 am

Tyler Durden wrote:Moral nihilism should be embraced[.]
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Re: Tyler Durden's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 03, 2014 7:11 am

Sauwelios wrote:
Tyler Durden wrote:Moral nihilism should be embraced[.]


And?
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Existenz41 » Sat May 03, 2014 1:36 pm

Tyler Durden wrote:Nietzsche it is said was just trying to create a new morality or ethos of what he saw as the deterioration of the current ones.

His fatal flaw and error you see is that once the genie comes out of the bottle there is no way to bring it back inside again.

Once moral nihilism is realized all re-emergences of so called morality or ethics are stopped dead in their tracks. They can be nothing more.

Once moral and ethical systems deteriorate breaking down altogether there is no way to recover them or make an entirely new set.

For this moral nihilism is inescapable, unavoidable, and inevitable.

His fears of moral nihilism and trying to overcome them were flawed. Moral nihilism should be embraced instead.

There is nothing to be feared or overcomed. There is only the embrace of moral nihilism which is the natural expression of this existence.

Concerning the slaves of the world they also will eventually come to realise moral nihilism as there will come a time where the irrelevancy of morality, ethics, law, and authority will be finally exposed in plain sight everywhere.

When that happens a new perception will emerge and it shall be do whatever thou shall will where all imposed limitations or interventions will be no more.

Creative destruction then will be prevalent once again worldwide. More importantly the natural expression of anarchy will find itself prevalent around the world once again.

Sure, there will always be those who seek to have the order and rules over others but once moral nihilism removes the carrot and stick of morality out of their arsenal their ability to control others will forever be diminished never to be returned ever again. Moral nihilism in this regard becomes a double edged blade.


He can't have an objective system of morality, but he's not trying to. He's perfectly entitled to have his own subjective system of values and norms that he can try to impose on people through his will to power.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Existenz41 » Sat May 03, 2014 1:37 pm

Tyler Durden wrote:Nietzsche it is said was just trying to create a new morality or ethos of what he saw as the deterioration of the current ones.

His fatal flaw and error you see is that once the genie comes out of the bottle there is no way to bring it back inside again.

Once moral nihilism is realized all re-emergences of so called morality or ethics are stopped dead in their tracks. They can be nothing more.

Once moral and ethical systems deteriorate breaking down altogether there is no way to recover them or make an entirely new set.

For this moral nihilism is inescapable, unavoidable, and inevitable.

His fears of moral nihilism and trying to overcome them were flawed. Moral nihilism should be embraced instead.

There is nothing to be feared or overcomed. There is only the embrace of moral nihilism which is the natural expression of this existence.

Concerning the slaves of the world they also will eventually come to realise moral nihilism as there will come a time where the irrelevancy of morality, ethics, law, and authority will be finally exposed in plain sight everywhere.

When that happens a new perception will emerge and it shall be do whatever thou shall will where all imposed limitations or interventions will be no more.

Creative destruction then will be prevalent once again worldwide. More importantly the natural expression of anarchy will find itself prevalent around the world once again.

Sure, there will always be those who seek to have the order and rules over others but once moral nihilism removes the carrot and stick of morality out of their arsenal their ability to control others will forever be diminished never to be returned ever again. Moral nihilism in this regard becomes a double edged blade.


He can't have an objective system of morality, but he's not trying to. He's perfectly entitled to have his own subjective system of values and norms that he can try to impose on people through his will to power.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Orbie » Sat May 03, 2014 4:13 pm

He really hasn't any entitlement to will any subjective morality, either.
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Re: Tyler Durden's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Sauwelios » Sat May 03, 2014 4:44 pm

Tyler Durden wrote:
Sauwelios wrote:
Tyler Durden wrote:Moral nihilism should be embraced[.]


And?


No, nothing! According to moral nihilism, after all, there's no reason why one _should_ be consistent...
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 03, 2014 5:41 pm

By that sort of thinking there is no reason to be logical, rational, or above reproach on anything.

Still that sort of thinking does not negate what I have said whatsoever.

That still flies in the face of do whatever thou shall will.

The end result is still nonetheless moral nihilism and would even complement moral scepticism rather nicely.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby MechanicalMonster » Sat May 03, 2014 6:23 pm

Some thinkers are only seeking a philosophical platform on which to kill themselves in peace.

One must therefore wonder about the kinds of lives these thinkers must lead.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 03, 2014 6:28 pm

MechanicalMonster wrote:Some thinkers are only seeking a philosophical platform on which to kill themselves in peace.

One must therefore wonder about the kinds of lives these thinkers must lead.


Peace is just one of many illusions and deceptions.

In this world there is no peace but conflict is something that is always abound.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby MechanicalMonster » Sat May 03, 2014 6:28 pm

You know I was talking about you, right?
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 03, 2014 6:29 pm

MechanicalMonster wrote:You know I was talking about you, right?


If you were then you have greatly misinterpreted or misunderstood what I was saying. Coming from you I'm not at all surprised.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby MechanicalMonster » Sat May 03, 2014 6:43 pm

Tyler Durden wrote:Nietzsche it is said was just trying to create a new morality or ethos of what he saw as the deterioration of the current ones.


I've never heard anyone say that.

His fatal flaw and error you see is that once the genie comes out of the bottle there is no way to bring it back inside again.


Nietzsche knew that.

Once moral nihilism is realized all re-emergences of so called morality or ethics are stopped dead in their tracks. They can be nothing more.

Once moral and ethical systems deteriorate breaking down altogether there is no way to recover them or make an entirely new set.

For this moral nihilism is inescapable, unavoidable, and inevitable.


This view is to be expected from a thought which moves only in one dimension and along a single plateau. Because you cannot see deeper into how various moral ideas are different from each other, from where morals come, or why they even exist, let alone "what morality is", you are forced to conclude as you do -- simplistically and fallaciously. And also psychologically self-servingly.

His fears of moral nihilism and trying to overcome them were flawed. Moral nihilism should be embraced instead.


Nietzsche was not afraid of moral nihilism. He was afraid of the kind of nihilism which you represent, and because he saw your type coming into power and staying in power.

For one thing, you are eminently moral yourself.

There is nothing to be feared or overcomed. There is only the embrace of moral nihilism which is the natural expression of this existence.


No it isn't.

Self-value is the natural expression of this existence.

It's just that you happen to manifest your self-valuing by attempting to cut if off and deny it -- "nihilism" is only a philosophy of weakness.

Concerning the slaves of the world they also will eventually come to realise moral nihilism as there will come a time where the irrelevancy of morality, ethics, law, and authority will be finally exposed in plain sight everywhere.

When that happens a new perception will emerge and it shall be do whatever thou shall will where all imposed limitations or interventions will be no more.


You really don't understand Nietzsche at all, do you.

Creative destruction then will be prevalent once again worldwide. More importantly the natural expression of anarchy will find itself prevalent around the world once again.


Creative destruction is always prevalent in the world.

And "anarchy" is and never will be a valid philosophy, much less politics.

Try Humanarchy instead.

Sure, there will always be those who seek to have the order and rules over others but once moral nihilism removes the carrot and stick of morality out of their arsenal their ability to control others will forever be diminished never to be returned ever again. Moral nihilism in this regard becomes a double edged blade.


Order and rules are an inherent part of existence, especially of organisms and "life". Let alone consciousness itself, as we experience it and are manifested thusly.

No wonder you want to kill yourself.
Last edited by MechanicalMonster on Sat May 03, 2014 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Sauwelios » Sat May 03, 2014 6:45 pm

Tyler Durden wrote:By that sort of thinking there is no reason to be logical, rational, or above reproach on anything.


Exactly!


Still that sort of thinking does not negate what I have said whatsoever.


Well, by that sort of thinking--i.e., morally nihilistic thinking--, it's not true that moral nihilism should be embraced, as there _are_ no shoulds or should-nots.


That still flies in the face of do whatever thou shall will.

The end result is still nonetheless moral nihilism and would even complement moral scepticism rather nicely.


Ah, but it's not the _end_ result. You see, you were mistaken when you said:

Sure, there will always be those who seek to have the order and rules over others but once moral nihilism removes the carrot and stick of morality out of their arsenal their ability to control others will forever be diminished never to be returned ever again.


If there is no reason to be truthful, why should people not start believing in imaginary carrots and sticks again?
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 03, 2014 6:48 pm

Well, by that sort of thinking--i.e., morally nihilistic thinking--, it's not true that moral nihilism should be embraced, as there _are_ no shoulds or should-nots.


All of that is an extrapolation of moral nihilism not against it.

If there is no reason to be truthful, why should people not start believing in imaginary carrots and sticks again?


Once the transparency of the fraud is exposed there is no going back to it again. Mental adaptation and such.

We don't get fooled again.

The collective consciousness begins to take note.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Sauwelios » Sat May 03, 2014 7:21 pm

Tyler Durden wrote:
Well, by that sort of thinking--i.e., morally nihilistic thinking--, it's not true that moral nihilism should be embraced, as there _are_ no shoulds or should-nots.


All of that is an extrapolation of moral nihilism not against it.


And?


If there is no reason to be truthful, why should people not start believing in imaginary carrots and sticks again?


Once the transparency of the fraud is exposed there is no going back to it again. Mental adaptation and such.

We don't get fooled again.

The collective consciousness begins to take note.


What about the mental adaptation to the notion that there is no reason to be truthful? As Palahniuk wrote, "If you watch close, history does nothing but repeat itself." (Palahniuk, Survivor.)
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 03, 2014 7:25 pm

History often enough does repeat itself but there is several transformations also to be of note.

If the general population comes to a conclusion that they've been conditioned to believe in mass delusion all these thousands of years in what is described as civilization we are looking at a major transformation and not some repeat of business as usual.

I believe this awakened collective consciousness is very much possible.

I'm not suggesting some sort of positive collective consciousness either but one of eternal rebellion and defiance where moral nihilism will become dominantly paramount.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Sauwelios » Sat May 03, 2014 7:58 pm

Tyler Durden wrote:History often enough does repeat itself but there is several transformations also to be of note.

If the general population comes to a conclusion that they've been conditioned to believe in mass delusion all these thousands of years in what is described as civilization we are looking at a major transformation and not some repeat of business as usual.

I believe this awakened collective consciousness is very much possible.

I'm not suggesting some sort of positive collective consciousness either but one of eternal rebellion and defiance where moral nihilism will become dominantly paramount.


Oh, such a cataclysm is definitely possible. It's just that, sooner or later, a similar mass delusion will again emerge. The rebellion and defiance will by no means be eternal. Anarchy is only an intermediary stage.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Arminius » Sun May 04, 2014 3:09 am

Tyler Durden wrote:Nietzsche it is said was just trying to create a new morality or ethos of what he saw as the deterioration of the current ones.

His fatal flaw and error you see is that once the genie comes out of the bottle there is no way to bring it back inside again.

And after the genie his epigones, his copyists, his copycats, his imitators come and get "high" outside the bottle.

Tyler Durden wrote:His fears of moral nihilism and trying to overcome them were flawed.

Probably - or probably not?

Can you give evidence?
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby The Golden Turd » Sun May 04, 2014 5:50 am

When you first set out in philosophy, did you ever have dreams and hopes, ambitions and desires, a sense of beauty in studying the unknown and coming into a better working knowledge of the universe?

Why has it, after reading some dead Prussian, philosophy has become nothing but one short, meaningless narrow road to murder and suicide, with commentary?

Why is this the sum of philosophy for you? All Nietzscheans are addicted to suicide. Knock it off or get on with it, pick a date when you all want to do it, and leave the living to their own devices.

Impossible to imagine a more dreary and worthless philosophy where everyone either wants to die or enslave and whip one another.... just.... come on, its clearly a lunatic religion, right up there with the Heaven's Gate Cult.

Go ride a bicycle, and eat some icecreme in the park, play with a puppy..... the puppy knows better than to do this to itself, let it rub off on you a bit.

No more suiciding dammit. If you suicide, we will jail you, and you'll pay a fine, and do community service after. Playing with a puppy sounds alot better now, doesn't it?
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Existenz41 » Sun May 04, 2014 9:41 am

obe wrote:He really hasn't any entitlement to will any subjective morality, either.


Why not?
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Existenz41 » Sun May 04, 2014 9:51 am

When you first set out in philosophy, did you ever have dreams and hopes, ambitions and desires, a sense of beauty in studying the unknown and coming into a better working knowledge of the universe?


I did.
Why has it, after reading some dead Prussian, philosophy has become nothing but one short, meaningless narrow road to murder and suicide, with commentary?


It hasn't for me. In fact, I find my life much more meaningful post-studying Nietzsche than pre-studying Nietzsche.

Why is this the sum of philosophy for you?
All Nietzscheans are addicted to suicide. Knock it off or get on with it, pick a date when you all want to do it, and leave the living to their own devices.


I'm not sure which Nietzschians you are talking about. I am not that way. Maudmarie Clark is not that way. Brian Leiter is not that way. etc. etc.

Impossible to imagine a more dreary and worthless philosophy where everyone either wants to die or enslave and whip one another.... just.... come on, its clearly a lunatic religion, right up there with the Heaven's Gate Cult.


You can read the slave stuff somewhat metaphorically as about intellectual sparring. Many American Nietzschains read him this way. Nietzshe is certainly not, however, commanding you to have slaves. He's playing with possibilities, possibilities that perhaps might be more healthy ways of having a society. I for one, disagree with him if his conclusion is that slavery creates a more flourishing society, as i think many Nietzschians would.

Go ride a bicycle, and eat some icecreme in the park, play with a puppy..... the puppy knows better than to do this to itself, let it rub off on you a bit.

Nietzsche would have no problem with any of this. In fact, insofar as it is life affierming, he'd encourage it for sure.


No more suiciding dammit. If you suicide, we will jail you, and you'll pay a fine, and do community service after. Playing with a puppy sounds alot better now, doesn't it?


Suicide isn't immoral, but it's also very unhealthy, perhaps the unhealthiest way of dealing with life. To me, the Nietzschian action would be to not take your life, even if you are in extreme suffering. I don't go with Nietzsche all the way down that path. I think someone with a horrible terminal cancer or a soul crushing depression that's eaten at them for a decade, suicide can be rational or justified. That doesn't mean it's the only or best solution.

Just wanted to try and rebut a bit on the behalf of the Nietzschians, of which I count myself among these days.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Arminius » Sun May 04, 2014 2:07 pm

Contra-Nietzsche wrote:All Nietzscheans are addicted to suicide.

Okay, that is a cynical statement, but nevertheless: Nietzscheans are endangered ...:

Contra-Nietzsche wrote:The most pathetic people I know in philosophy are Nietzschean. They are all sad, pathetic little creatures.

Gib wrote:Was Nietzsche a panpsychic?

James S Saint wrote:Oh... I thought he was asking if Nietzsche was a "pan-psychotic"... :-? :oops:

Contra-Nietzsche wrote:A Pan-Psychotic Libertine of de Sade's tradition.

Wasn't what the op wanted, but it most certainly fits.

Tyler Durden wrote:His fears of moral nihilism and trying to overcome them were flawed.

What shall we do with him?

Probably Nietzsche didn't overcome nihilism, but brought more nihilism than all other nihilists before him, because he spread nihilism all over the world.

Who is really able to overcome nihilism in times of nihilism?
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Orbie » Sun May 04, 2014 2:44 pm

Existenz41 wrote:
obe wrote:He really hasn't any entitlement to will any subjective morality, either.


Why not?



Moral relativism fails as a system, because it cannot arbitrate ethical conflicts. Entitlement literally begs this question.
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And that is faithful
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Arminius » Sun May 04, 2014 3:35 pm

Well, I think Nietzsche was a great life philosopher, a great scepticist, a great psychologist (and b.t.w.: the real or original founder of the psychoanalyse), a great immunologist, a great writer, a graet aphorist, a graet essayist, a great poet, a great philologist, but that's all. I don't know whether he overcame nihilism, but I know that it is nearly impossible to overcome nihilism in nihilistic times because it is impossible to eliminate the thought of nihilism in times of nihilism.(Cp.: Zeitgeist). When you think you do not want to think about nihilism, you think about nihilism.
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