Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby The Golden Turd » Sun May 04, 2014 5:30 pm

Then how is it I manage to get through life without such a hypothetical state; for if nihilism is anything, it's a chronic lack of dopamine. Its a state of perception, occurring from anatomy, not a abstract nominal idea that is shuffled around in debate.

I have been systematically confronted with the very worst of life. Far worst than anything you can offer in return. I have sat with many of you, heard your arguments for years.... honestly, short of some debilitating lesions in the brain completely warping your neuro-chemical make-up, this concept of nihilism being completely independent of time or ante rem structural mathematics in reorienting the entire perceptive universe around itself, as the most sure and absolute thing in existence...... is a crock of self defeating bullshit. It is sadistic and retarded. If your on Prozac, get off it, and if your off it, ask your doctor for a prescription.....

I mean shit, we got all these pounds of brain mass, a wide array of possibilities, and this is the miserable shit philosophy is whittled down to for you guys.

Nihilism is put of the bag, but so are puppies and long walks on the beach. Remarkably nothing has actually changed..... the structure and chemical make up of brains havent changed in the last few hundred years....

Every grave in the graveyard you pass, who died old, managed. They reject this miserable synthesis by the virtue of living.

Don't make me sing the happy puppy love song. I will if you suiciders continue with this miserable de sade "Justine" mockery of life.

Just try living instead. And don't confuse living by being a complete sado-masochist douche.

Life is worth living. Outside of some inexperienced drugged up teenager, Nietzscheans are the only group I gotta tell this to.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Historyboy » Sun May 04, 2014 7:28 pm

Arminius wrote:Well, I think Nietzsche was a great life philosopher, a great scepticist, a great psychologist (and b.t.w.: the real or original founder of the psychoanalyse), a great immunologist, a great writer, a graet aphorist, a graet essayist, a great poet, a great philologist, but that's all. I don't know whether he overcame nihilism, but I know that it is nearly impossible to overcome nihilism in nihilistic times because it is impossible to eliminate the thought of nihilism in times of nihilism.(Cp.: Zeitgeist). When you think you do not want to think about nihilism, you think about nihilism.


How creepy, how German!

In the 70's he whote that a life dedicated to truth is the purest life of all.

19 [175]

Was thut den Menschen die Wahrheit!

Es ist das höchste und reinste Leben möglich, im Glauben die Wahrheit zu haben. Der Glaube an die Wahrheit ist dem Menschen nöthig.

Die Wahrheit erscheint als sociales Bedürfniß: durch eine Metastase wird sie nachher auf alles angewandt, wo sie nicht nöthig ist.

Alle Tugenden entstehn aus Nothdurften. Mit der Societät beginnt das Bedürfniß nach Wahrhaftigkeit. Sonst lebt der Mensch in ewigen Verschleierungen. Die Staatengründung erregt die Wahrhaftigkeit. —

Der Trieb zur Erkenntniß hat eine moralische Quelle.


“Nitimur in vetitum: (We strive for the forbidden) in this sign my philosophy will triumph one day, for what one has forbidden so far as a matter of principle has always been—truth alone.”


Nietzsche wrote:
The good four. Honest with ourselves and with whatever is friend to us; courageous toward the enemy; generous toward the vanquished; polite-always that is how the four cardinal virtues want us.


Asocial dogs will always follow only the path of destruction!
Life is will to power. - Nietzsche; Culture is and gives power and strength - Vollgraff; The only attribute of the mind is that he is powerful. - Aristotle; Mind is dragging us into the future and the heart into the present. - Aristotle; Those who can foresee deeds are born to rule and those who need to do them are born as slaves. - Aristotle; So, what is an aristocrat? He needs to be powerful, that means to be excellent in foreseeing things! - Me; The highest honor belongs to that one who is able to predict the moves of the enemy commander. - Machiavelli; If you want that what you have inherited to possess, you need to deserve it. - Goethe; Culture, which means exactly learning to calculate, learning to think causally, learning to prevent, learning to believe in necessity. - Nietzsche. [Autumn 1887, 10 [21]]; Morals in the narrow sense is the belief that the deeds of the ancestors will be transferred to the descendants. - Nietzsche
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun May 04, 2014 8:15 pm

Nietzsche's mistake was that he was compassionate and his error was that he thought compassion is weak. A syntax error that became fatal but not before he created the finest religion alive.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby The Golden Turd » Sun May 04, 2014 10:06 pm

Ah see now, you won me over.

Chain me up and whip me, so long as you tell me more of these bittersweet lies.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Sauwelios » Mon May 05, 2014 2:39 am

I'm not sure where, but I'm pretty sure Nietzsche says somewhere that the Romans made a grave mistake in taking the Christians seriously. Well then, we Nietzscheans, we representatives of Roma, should learn from the past! That is, we should not take rants like Contra-Nietzsche's seriously. I've known him since 2009, and he's a self-proclaimed Christian. Don't engage him.

I will now say some things that may throw some light on some of my earlier comments. I do not consider Nietzsche a moral nihilist. That is to say, I consider him a slave-moral nihilist, but not a master-moral nihilist. Or, considering that he often speaks of “morality” when he means only slave or herd morality, I consider him a “moral” nihilist, but not an “ethical” nihilist. Compare:

    "Nietzsche's '_antimoral_ propensity' [...] is rooted in a counter-morality, an opposing ethic, an alternative conception of what is good, right, and fitting for a human being. Thus, his criticism of morality is in fact ultimately moral or, to avoid confusion, ethical." (Peter Berkowitz, Nietzsche: The Ethics of an Immoralist, page 48.)

This is crucial to understanding Nietzsche. It's the difference between the values “good and bad” and “good and evil”. The inconsistency I immediately caught in the OP is resolved as soon as this distinction is made. It's good as opposed to bad to embrace slave-moral nihilism. The mistake and error is not Nietzsche's but Tyler's.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Sauwelios » Mon May 05, 2014 2:58 am

Fixed Cross wrote:Nietzsche's mistake was that he was compassionate and his error was that he thought compassion is weak. A syntax error that became fatal but not before he created the finest religion alive.


Nietzsche thought compassion was a strength but its effects led to weakness. This is correct, and means that compassion must be kept in check and that failure to do so is a mark of weakness. It's like the peacock's train: a peacock's sporting a great train is an expression of fitness, but the bird's fitness is reduced to zero if it dies before it could procreate; this however may happen as a result of sporting such a train. This is one more reason why the mind should rule the heart, philosophy religion.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby The Golden Turd » Mon May 05, 2014 3:19 am

Yeah, listen to Sri Sauwelios.... he has a very favorable track record amongst Nietzscheans. Nothing fishy in his background that would cause half of you to drop his association and run. Great guy, a true atheist.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Existenz41 » Mon May 05, 2014 3:30 am

Contra-Nietzsche wrote:Life is worth living.


But that was Nietzsche's whole point. You're a Nietzschian!
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Moreno » Mon May 05, 2014 4:45 am

Sauwelios wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Nietzsche's mistake was that he was compassionate and his error was that he thought compassion is weak. A syntax error that became fatal but not before he created the finest religion alive.


Nietzsche thought compassion was a strength but its effects led to weakness. This is correct, and means that compassion must be kept in check and that failure to do so is a mark of weakness. It's like the peacock's train: a peacock's sporting a great train is an expression of fitness, but the bird's fitness is reduced to zero if it dies before it could procreate; this however may happen as a result of sporting such a train. This is one more reason why the mind should rule the heart, philosophy religion.

A useful and common analogy - or is it ontology - that the self is in pieces and some pieces or this or that piece should be in charge, here 'should rule'. And internal government. And internal master slave to point a bit at other parts of the context. Let's say there are parts to the self and that parts can be overemphasized, creating problems. Seems reasonable, can fit what a phenomenologist would describe. At this point most humans/theorists jump to certain modes of relation - here the metaphor of autocracy, with the mind as the autocrat. The heart being, well, a faction of the polis, perhaps often seen to be a kind of mob organ. Swayed irrationally, etc. Other possible relations are not chosen, and generally it is not explained why. For example, the mind could inform the heart. The mind could merge with the heart, sharing it's awareness, memory, analysis. 'Suddenly the heart is not just focused on the sad face of the guy who has been embezzling and has just been caught redhanded, but the repetition of this situation is part of the awareness -categorizations, memories, logging - it is flooded with by 'the mind'. (as an aside these days when one says heart and juxtaposes it to mind, most modernists really mean limbic system vs. frontal lobes or some such). Creating a unity, informing, working with as a partner...these potential relations/dynamics/analogies are left off the table. A unitary organism is encouraged to continue as a disjointed set of parts, and even to give up energy to have one part controlling another. Splits made during childrearing and via the media and by schooling and by loopy portions of culture and then reinforced by philosophers and psychologists and self-help book writers, who all KNOW intuitively, since it all goes without saying, that only these kinds of ruler/ruled, master/slave, guard/prisoner dynamics work. And their politics regarding the out world will tend to match (or be guiltily denied) their internal form of government.

I have sympathy for this. Both history and meditation seem to lead one in this direction. And so what is actually a distortion is taken for what is.

None of this, obviously, is a denial of the fact that one can be too focused on the feelings/pain of others. In specific situations, as a general pattern. I say it is obvious but sometimes I have to state the obvious since it gets missed. So we shift from a fact/ a reality many encounter to the solution, the only solution, it seems. If something can be out of balance, then it must be under vigilant control by something else. And the fact that mind, that something else, has always been the root of the imbalance is neatly hidden in all this 'realism'. For it was mind that told heart it had to deny itself for others, even if the mind in question is not aware of that part of itself.

And I should have added, this idea of parts ruling over parts exceedingly Christian (Abrahamic, even major religion, in general) and in the end an odd fit for a philosopher so critical, if in a complex manner, of Christianity.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Sauwelios » Mon May 05, 2014 6:19 am

Moreno wrote:If something can be out of balance, then it must be under vigilant control by something else. And the fact that mind, that something else, has always been the root of the imbalance is neatly hidden in all this 'realism'.


Ah yes, "mind" has always been the root of the imbalance. The heart is innocent! :mrgreen:


For it was mind that told heart it had to deny itself for others, even if the mind in question is not aware of that part of itself.


That can be the case, but is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the irrational, evolved selflessness. You're talking about the carrot and stick, the superego.


And I should have added, this idea of parts ruling over parts exceedingly Christian (Abrahamic, even major religion, in general) and in the end an odd fit for a philosopher so critical, if in a complex manner, of Christianity.


You mean "Platonic". It's not at all Christlike, of course. What's good about the Church is that it is a hierarchy, with the more spiritual human beings on top; what's bad about it is that it has to tell lies--for example the lie of the equality of all souls before God.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby The Golden Turd » Mon May 05, 2014 1:22 pm

No Exist.... Im am three things, 1) A Catholic 2) A Cynic 3) A Machiavellian.

I already know about Nietzsche being heavily attracted to all three. In alot of cognitive tests, mapping brain function, he pops up on my end..... but I am no Nietzschean. Nietzsche half assed, stole, and blundered in the execution of his ideas. Who you think is Nietzsche (especially you arminius the immunologist) is Jerome Cardan, a renaissance philosopher who's autobiography somehow ended up in Ecce Homo.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby James S Saint » Mon May 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Contra-Nietzsche wrote:No Exist.... Im am three things, 1) A Catholic 2) A Cynic 3) A Machiavellian.

:-s

So you are a humble, duplicitous Catholic? :-?
:-k
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
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The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby The Golden Turd » Mon May 05, 2014 3:38 pm

two loafs of brain james.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby James S Saint » Mon May 05, 2014 4:18 pm

Divide and Conquer.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 05, 2014 4:22 pm

Sauwelios wrote:I'm not sure where, but I'm pretty sure Nietzsche says somewhere that the Romans made a grave mistake in taking the Christians seriously. Well then, we Nietzscheans, we representatives of Roma, should learn from the past! That is, we should not take rants like Contra-Nietzsche's seriously. I've known him since 2009, and he's a self-proclaimed Christian. Don't engage him.

I will now say some things that may throw some light on some of my earlier comments. I do not consider Nietzsche a moral nihilist. That is to say, I consider him a slave-moral nihilist, but not a master-moral nihilist. Or, considering that he often speaks of “morality” when he means only slave or herd morality, I consider him a “moral” nihilist, but not an “ethical” nihilist. Compare:

    "Nietzsche's '_antimoral_ propensity' [...] is rooted in a counter-morality, an opposing ethic, an alternative conception of what is good, right, and fitting for a human being. Thus, his criticism of morality is in fact ultimately moral or, to avoid confusion, ethical." (Peter Berkowitz, Nietzsche: The Ethics of an Immoralist, page 48.)

This is crucial to understanding Nietzsche. It's the difference between the values “good and bad” and “good and evil”. The inconsistency I immediately caught in the OP is resolved as soon as this distinction is made. It's good as opposed to bad to embrace slave-moral nihilism. The mistake and error is not Nietzsche's but Tyler's.

CN is always in every post he makes, indignant. Ive never seen him post anything that wasn't like ''these assholes here did that and you assholes here do this.... and the Vedanta says this so fuck you losers." So yes your analysis would seem correct.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 05, 2014 4:30 pm

Sauwelios wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:Nietzsche's mistake was that he was compassionate and his error was that he thought compassion is weak. A syntax error that became fatal but not before he created the finest religion alive.


Nietzsche thought compassion was a strength but its effects led to weakness. This is correct,

I could agree that some of its possible effects can lead to weakness. Definitely not that it is always the case.

and means that compassion must be kept in check and that failure to do so is a mark of weakness. It's like the peacock's train: a peacock's sporting a great train is an expression of fitness, but the bird's fitness is reduced to zero if it dies before it could procreate; this however may happen as a result of sporting such a train. This is one more reason why the mind should rule the heart, philosophy religion.

Not all expressions of fitness are burdens to procreation.

It is true that compassion can be lethal and prevent procreation, but only if it is not grounded in self-valuing.
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Mon May 05, 2014 4:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 05, 2014 4:30 pm

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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 05, 2014 4:33 pm

Contra-Nietzsche wrote:No Exist.... Im am three things, 1) A Catholic 2) A Cynic 3) A Machiavellian.

I already know about Nietzsche being heavily attracted to all three. In alot of cognitive tests, mapping brain function, he pops up on my end..... but I am no Nietzschean. Nietzsche half assed, stole, and blundered in the execution of his ideas. Who you think is Nietzsche (especially you arminius the immunologist) is Jerome Cardan, a renaissance philosopher who's autobiography somehow ended up in Ecce Homo.

I think this is tragically silly. Not because I want you to respect Nietzsche but because you seem to have no idea what it means to be an individual.
Are you really serious with this type of analysis? I can't really convince myself that you are. Anyway, have a nice week.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Historyboy » Mon May 05, 2014 4:55 pm

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Life is will to power. - Nietzsche; Culture is and gives power and strength - Vollgraff; The only attribute of the mind is that he is powerful. - Aristotle; Mind is dragging us into the future and the heart into the present. - Aristotle; Those who can foresee deeds are born to rule and those who need to do them are born as slaves. - Aristotle; So, what is an aristocrat? He needs to be powerful, that means to be excellent in foreseeing things! - Me; The highest honor belongs to that one who is able to predict the moves of the enemy commander. - Machiavelli; If you want that what you have inherited to possess, you need to deserve it. - Goethe; Culture, which means exactly learning to calculate, learning to think causally, learning to prevent, learning to believe in necessity. - Nietzsche. [Autumn 1887, 10 [21]]; Morals in the narrow sense is the belief that the deeds of the ancestors will be transferred to the descendants. - Nietzsche
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 05, 2014 5:32 pm

So there's the suggestion that we divide compassion into two different attitudes: empathy and sympathy.

Empathy (feeling-in) is being able to appreciate the situation and suffering of the object, whereas sympathy (feeling-with) is actually identifying with the suffering and partaking in it. Sympathy thus naturally includes a risk to the self-valuing, as it enables a form of self-transgression. Empathy is rather a form of valuing the suffering person in such a way that one would value seeing that suffering alleviated. If this is accepted, I would offer this definition: empathy is appreciation of the goal of another's well being, sympathy is embrace of another's present state of suffering.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 05, 2014 5:42 pm

If that is acceptable, then we can identify the 'pathos' in both terms as pertaining to different states.

Empathy is of the elemental pathos of will to power, joy -
Sympathy is of the second state birthed by the will to power, being overpowered, suffering.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Historyboy » Mon May 05, 2014 6:10 pm

One fatal mistake: to discuss with anarchists, communists, democrats... disintegration is speaking out of them. Out of each individual speaks his biology. One does not speak with dead bodies. As we know, Nietzsche has felt a tremendous distance between himself and all others and I bet he wouldn't name more than few people from the entire history who he would talk to. I see no living people who are able to think Nietzsche. And i feel the distance. Not only in relation to his writings, but also in real life. Sometimes I think who is talking there, a man or a worm?
Life is will to power. - Nietzsche; Culture is and gives power and strength - Vollgraff; The only attribute of the mind is that he is powerful. - Aristotle; Mind is dragging us into the future and the heart into the present. - Aristotle; Those who can foresee deeds are born to rule and those who need to do them are born as slaves. - Aristotle; So, what is an aristocrat? He needs to be powerful, that means to be excellent in foreseeing things! - Me; The highest honor belongs to that one who is able to predict the moves of the enemy commander. - Machiavelli; If you want that what you have inherited to possess, you need to deserve it. - Goethe; Culture, which means exactly learning to calculate, learning to think causally, learning to prevent, learning to believe in necessity. - Nietzsche. [Autumn 1887, 10 [21]]; Morals in the narrow sense is the belief that the deeds of the ancestors will be transferred to the descendants. - Nietzsche
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon May 05, 2014 6:42 pm

Please, get to a point or shut up.
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby monad » Mon May 05, 2014 7:14 pm

Contra-Nietzsche wrote:I already know about Nietzsche being heavily attracted to all three. In alot of cognitive tests, mapping brain function, he pops up on my end..... but I am no Nietzschean. Nietzsche half assed, stole, and blundered in the execution of his ideas. Who you think is Nietzsche (especially you arminius the immunologist) is Jerome Cardan, a renaissance philosopher who's autobiography somehow ended up in Ecce Homo.


Interesting comparison but I have no idea how they combine. What's the connection and how did Jerome Cardan's so-called autobiography end up in Ecce Homo? This would be interesting to know!
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Re: Friedrich Nietzsche's Fatal Mistake And Error

Postby Historyboy » Mon May 05, 2014 7:28 pm

Thats how western people live, like slaves. Shut up or you are fired!
Life is will to power. - Nietzsche; Culture is and gives power and strength - Vollgraff; The only attribute of the mind is that he is powerful. - Aristotle; Mind is dragging us into the future and the heart into the present. - Aristotle; Those who can foresee deeds are born to rule and those who need to do them are born as slaves. - Aristotle; So, what is an aristocrat? He needs to be powerful, that means to be excellent in foreseeing things! - Me; The highest honor belongs to that one who is able to predict the moves of the enemy commander. - Machiavelli; If you want that what you have inherited to possess, you need to deserve it. - Goethe; Culture, which means exactly learning to calculate, learning to think causally, learning to prevent, learning to believe in necessity. - Nietzsche. [Autumn 1887, 10 [21]]; Morals in the narrow sense is the belief that the deeds of the ancestors will be transferred to the descendants. - Nietzsche
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