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Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:05 am
by Arminius
Is an authentic dasein (existence, life) possible for human beings?

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:12 pm
by James S Saint
Arminius wrote:Is an authentic dasein (existence, life) possible for human beings?

The word "dasein" is pretty ambiguous. You are going to have to fill in more specifics.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:26 pm
by Zoot Allures
It is absolutely possible.

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Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:53 pm
by Arminius
James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:Is an authentic dasein (existence, life) possible for human beings?

The word "dasein" is pretty ambiguous. You are going to have to fill in more specifics.

I wrote:Is an authentic dasein (existence, life) possible for human beings?

You can interpet it as you want: dasein, existence, life (see above). It is up to you to interpret "dasein", but you should explain how you mean it and specify it.

But you should not necessarily refer to the following:
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Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:49 pm
by Arminius
The question of this thread also includes e.g. this question: Is it possible to not lie, to not be insincere / hypocritical, to not be corrupt, to not want to be like the others, but just to be oneself? I am asking you, for example, whether you think that you live or can live according to the imperative " BE YOURSELF ! " .

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:26 am
by James S Saint
Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:Is an authentic dasein (existence, life) possible for human beings?

The word "dasein" is pretty ambiguous. You are going to have to fill in more specifics.

I wrote:Is an authentic dasein (existence, life) possible for human beings?

You can interpet it as you want: dasein, existence, life (see above). It is up to you to interpret "dasein", but you should explain how you mean it and specify it.

But you should not necessarily refer to the following:
Image Image Image Image Image
f_a.jpg
f_n_a.jpg

I really wish those pictures were a little less true. #-o

Arminius wrote:The question of this thread also includes e.g. this question: Is it possible to not lie, to not be insincere / hypocritical, to not be corrupt, to not want to be like the others, but just to be oneself? I am asking you, for example, whether you think that you live or can live according to the imperative " BE YOURSELF ! " .

Can one live in ANY society void of pretense?

Excellent question, to which there is but one answer... NO!

.. unless .. it is a SAM Coop.

I challenge anyone to come up with a realistic society in which people can actually be truly open and deeply honest with the people around them yet it not be a SAM Coop. That would be the true Heaven on Earth or, alternatively, total imprisonment. In extreme cases many people can be honest, as long as they stick to specific concerns and speak exactly as the listener requires. To be free to speak without worrying that someone might misunderstand requires SAM. I will debate that with anyone on this whole planet ... well, except conspicuous idiots.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:59 am
by Arminius
James S Saint wrote:Can one live in ANY society void of pretense?

Excellent question, to which there is but one answer... NO!

.. unless .. it is a SAM Coop.

I challenge anyone to come up with a realistic society in which people can actually be truly open and deeply honest with the people around them yet it not be a SAM Coop. That would be the true Heaven on Earth or, alternatively, total imprisonment. In extreme cases many people can be honest, as long as they stick to specific concerns and speak exactly as the listener requires. To be free to speak without worrying that someone might misunderstand requires SAM. I will debate that with anyone on this whole planet ... well, except conspicuous idiots.

So you think that it would be possible to live in a society void of pretense then (and only then), if this society were a SAM Coop. There has not been any SAM Coop. So do you think there will be one?

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:27 am
by Arminius
Is it possible to live identically, thus according to the sentence: "A is A" (compare: A = A)?

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:47 am
by James S Saint
Arminius wrote: There has not been any SAM Coop. So do you think there will be one?

There have been "almost", "poor examples" of SAM Coops. And those displayed vast improvement immediately, so yes if Man can never figure it out, the Machines will (pretty much already have). It is a mathematical thing. It IS going to be the future, one way or another.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:11 pm
by Arminius
The dasein / existence of the current machines is authentic. If the machines will remain as they currently are and humans will still live then, then the machines will perhaps cause an authentic dasein (existence, life) of the humans by use of SAM. :)

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:39 pm
by James S Saint
Arminius wrote:The dasein / existence of the current machines is authentic. If the machines will remain as they currently are and humans will still live then, then the machines will perhaps cause an authentic dasein (existence, life) of the humans by use of SAM. :)

Possibly.

By "dasein", do you perhaps mean "under the current circumstances"?

Again, my answer would still be "No" unless you are in a SAM Coop. The "outside world" from the Coop would never permit complete honesty with it nor in it. Most secrets are not kept due to them being something negative but rather due to the possibility of them being either presumed negative or simply used against the group/person. People do not tell their address online, not because it is a negative address issue, but because of the possibility, not probability, that the information will be misused.

And even though not telling something is not lying, hiding something generally and eventually requires deception (dishonesty). And as long as the world is being aggressive and presumptuous (those two tend to go together), secrecy to some degree is required and thus deception to a surprisingly large degree is required.

With Socialism and eventual Communism being the world mode and agenda, very serious deception is an absolute must and is a part of the eternal design. So the current dasein situation certainly requires pretense on many, if not all, social levels.

Another simpler but less stable form of establishing total honesty can be arranged through extreme love. The problem with that today is that the powers that be know how to aggravate and destroy any love relationship that is not approved. SAM provides for the extreme love relationship but adds the protection against adversarial interference (an extremely common dasein issue of the day).

All societies of today are artificial structures and thus require pretense in order to maintain. The leaders must appear sufficiently proper. The workers must appear sufficiently proper. The thinkers must appear sufficiently proper. Everyone must appear sufficiently proper because the whole structure depends upon the beliefs of others, not the truth of the situation.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:52 pm
by Amorphos
If you look at anyone’s life story, most are comparatively boring and pathetic. Better ‘stories’ [an authentic reason?] generally rely on suffering to give them meaning, otherwise they become a bit Disney. Though often the story manifests the means to an end of the given kind of suffering, and as such is self defeating in the sense of removing the essential function ~ of what gives the story guts.

There would need to be a reason at the end of life, such to give credence to the suffering as the means to create something out of someone’s life. Change in the world may make us think the reason is worldly learning-from-suffering, and perhaps humanity gets better over time by learning from that. However, if we remove suffering we take away the function and it’s utility in giving us that purpose.

If life is about death/results and suffering [creation of said result], then it is not about life et al.


The universe [especially if infinite] is before and after us, so if it has dasein then it’s nothing to do with the little blip in time and space that is humanity, and especially a single life. ..unless it’s authentic reason is life itself!

Living and being are the dasein, but most/all the other reasons we find meaning in are not.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:59 pm
by Arminius
James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:The dasein / existence of the current machines is authentic. If the machines will remain as they currently are and humans will still live then, then the machines will perhaps cause an authentic dasein (existence, life) of the humans by use of SAM. :)

Possibly.

By "dasein", do you perhaps mean "under the current circumstances"?

By "dasein" I roughly mean what Heidegger's existence philosophy means by it.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:00 pm
by Arminius
James S Saint wrote:Again, my answer would still be "No" unless you are in a SAM Coop. The "outside world" from the Coop would never permit complete honesty with it nor in it. Most secrets are not kept due to them being something negative but rather due to the possibility of them being either presumed negative or simply used against the group/person. People do not tell their address online, not because it is a negative address issue, but because of the possibility, not probability, that the information will be misused.

They cannot prevent the misuse of information by not telling their address.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:00 pm
by Arminius
James S Saint wrote:And even though not telling something is not lying, hiding something generally and eventually requires deception (dishonesty). And as long as the world is being aggressive and presumptuous (those two tend to go together), secrecy to some degree is required and thus deception to a surprisingly large degree is required.

With Socialism and eventual Communism being the world mode and agenda, very serious deception is an absolute must and is a part of the eternal design. So the current dasein situation certainly requires pretense on many, if not all, social levels.

Another simpler but less stable form of establishing total honesty can be arranged through extreme love. The problem with that today is that the powers that be know how to aggravate and destroy any love relationship that is not approved. SAM provides for the extreme love relationship but adds the protection against adversarial interference (an extremely common dasein issue of the day).

"Love" is a great word with a huge field of meaning. I guess you mean something like "agape" (New Testament), an unselfish love.

James S Saint wrote:All societies of today are artificial structures and thus require pretense in order to maintain. The leaders must appear sufficiently proper. The workers must appear sufficiently proper. The thinkers must appear sufficiently proper. Everyone must appear sufficiently proper because the whole structure depends upon the beliefs of others, not the truth of the situation.

Yes, but that is difficult to implement in reality.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:43 pm
by Arminius
Amorphos wrote:There would need to be a reason at the end of life, such to give credence to the suffering as the means to create something out of someone’s life. Change in the world may make us think the reason is worldly learning-from-suffering, and perhaps humanity gets better over time by learning from that. However, if we remove suffering we take away the function and it’s utility in giving us that purpose.

Life in a negative sense of valuation is not only about suffering but also about death. Humans want to be immortal - like gods.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:17 am
by Amorphos
Life in a negative sense of valuation is not only about suffering but also about death. Humans want to be immortal - like gods.


I think humans mostly just want to be humans, in fact its the idea of loosing even that which generates to emotional need for power. It’s a crutch but a well deserved one.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 12:43 pm
by objet petit a
Children can.

This is a clue.

How is it possible that ALL children can and it is so difficult for adults?

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:06 pm
by James S Saint
Arminius wrote:By "dasein" I roughly mean what Heidegger's existence philosophy means by it.

Yes, but there is a lot of arguing about that, which is why I asked for your meaning.

Arminius wrote:"Love" is a great word with a huge field of meaning. I guess you mean something like "agape" (New Testament), an unselfish love.

..as well as the intimate man-women love, mother-child love, and honorable devotion.

Arminius wrote:Humans want to be immortal - like gods.

All life actually wants to be immortal, else it isn't actually life.

objet petit a wrote:Children can.
This is a clue.
How is it possible that ALL children can and it is so difficult for adults?

Children can only because they live under the canvas of the adults.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:38 pm
by objet petit a
James S Saint wrote:Children can only because they live under the canvas of the adults.

That is not true. If that were the case, prisoners could do so as well.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:40 pm
by Amorphos
There’s something to the newness of being a child, that the aggregate of suffering is cumulative. Children simply haven’t had as much shit and time to contemplate it, to question life.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:35 am
by Arminius
Children develop and learn to be like adults. The older a child the more similar to an adult.

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Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:46 am
by objet petit a
Amorphos wrote:There’s something to the newness of being a child, that the aggregate of suffering is cumulative. Children simply haven’t had as much shit and time to contemplate it, to question life.

Arminius wrote:Children develop and learn to be like adults. The older a child the more similar to an adult.

And why oh why is that important in this matter?

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:00 am
by James S Saint
objet petit a wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Children can only because they live under the canvas of the adults.

That is not true. If that were the case, prisoners could do so as well.

Emmm... no.

Although prisoners get along about as well as other children, the fact that one group can do something under condition A, doesn't mean every group can do something under condition A.

Re: Is a human authentic dasein (existence, life) possible?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:31 am
by objet petit a
James S Saint wrote:Emmm... no.

Although prisoners get along about as well as other children, the fact that one group can do something under condition A, doesn't mean every group can do something under condition A.

Then condition A is not conditional and really just a coincidental occurance, isn't it?
-Just like the fact that deflated is not a condition for being a blue ball.