God and Motion

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God and Motion

Postby Erik_ » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:52 pm

Infinite regress seems like an illogical idea.
What seems more probable is an unmoved mover;
an eternal, static reality that willed things to move.
The first act of motion was caused by will-power.
It's safe to call this reality "God". I don't mean some
guy with a beard in the clouds, but rather the ultimate
reality - the eternal.

I don't think the universe came into existence from nothing.
The universe is eternal, but it has not eternally been in motion.

Thoughts are welcome
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Re: God and Motion

Postby James S Saint » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:04 pm

Erik_ wrote:Infinite regress seems like an illogical idea.

???
How so? Seems very logical to me.

Erik_ wrote:What seems more probable is an unmoved mover;
an eternal, static reality that willed things to move.

That is actually a separate issue having nothing to do with infinite regression.

Erik_ wrote:The first act of motion was caused by will-power.

There was no "first act of motion" (Dear Thomas screwed up).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:48 pm

The universe exists because of consciousness

Once consciousness is gone there is an infinite amount of time for it to find a new host
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:11 am

I believe in relatively unmoving movers. But ultimately the prime mover is pure possibility; or the absence of impossibility. Impossibility of impossibility, that is the infinite regress; the logic of positive existence receding infinitely deep into what we are; hence, affirmation in the Nietzschean sense is a prerequisite for stable knowledge.

Knowledge is always moving. Meaning creeps into words and leaves them, like summer a tree.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:13 am

Consciousness/information/knowledge is always moving.

That is how it is processed.

What is unclear is, why it is at this particular point in time, and why it was at the particular points of time before it, and why does it keep moving forward, as it's - once reality - fades, as if everything is meaningless.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Erik_ » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:09 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Consciousness/information/knowledge is always moving.

That is how it is processed.

What is unclear is, why it is at this particular point in time, and why it was at the particular points of time before it, and why does it keep moving forward, as it's - once reality - fades, as if everything is meaningless.


Consciousness does not move; neurons do, but they aren't the same thing as consciousness.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Erik_ » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:22 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Erik_ wrote:Infinite regress seems like an illogical idea.

???
How so? Seems very logical to me.


Things move because there is a cause that made them move.
You can link things back to each other in an orderly sequence.

The physical universe is finite, therefore infinite regress of moving entities is false.
There was a beginning (to the physical universe), but the universe is not merely
physical. Whatever the prime mover is, it's not material, nor in motion;
it's an eternal, static reality that underlies everything.

It does not move, thus infinite regress of cause and effect is nullified.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Amorphos » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:11 pm

The unmoved mover would still be a first instance of all motion, A causer of causality? [paradox]

Because the universe is finite, we think reality is, but the universe was itself infinite at one time, so we have to surely see the fundamentals as eternals. Ergo there wont be a prime mover where there is no beginning.

It all just happens and always has and will happen.
The truth is naked,
Once it is written it is lost.
Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
the fully painted picture, reveals an empty canvas
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Re: God and Motion

Postby James S Saint » Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:48 pm

Erik_ wrote:The physical universe is finite,

I am certain that isn't true. Why do you think it is true? Because they told you? The same "they" who have been wrong about the cosmos for thousands of years?

Erik_ wrote: therefore infinite regress of moving entities is false.

I don't see how those two relate. Whether the universe is finite or not (and again, I am certain that it is not), what does that have to do with infinite regression? Why couldn't a finite universe have always existed?

Erik_ wrote:Whatever the prime mover is, it's not material, nor in motion;
it's an eternal, static reality that underlies everything.

That I am certain of.

Erik_ wrote:It does not move, thus infinite regress of cause and effect is nullified.

Again, what does a prime mover have to do with the impossibility of infinite regression of motion???
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: God and Motion

Postby Amorphos » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:38 pm

Why couldn't a finite universe have always existed?


Because it has a finite amount of energy + entropy + expansion such that particles eventually become to far apart to be affecting. Not to mention that it did have a beginning, which does leave an infinite regress prior to it. if cyclical, then you have to count [and contrast to the infinite] how many cycles could have existed prior to and after it, where there will always be a given amount prior to and after, and a first instance - the very first universe. Then that has the same philosophical problem as only having a single instance of universe, in terms of beginnings.
The truth is naked,
Once it is written it is lost.
Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
the fully painted picture, reveals an empty canvas
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Re: God and Motion

Postby James S Saint » Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:47 pm

Amorphos wrote:
Why couldn't a finite universe have always existed?


Because it has a finite amount of energy + entropy + expansion such that particles eventually become to far apart to be affecting.

You are referring to an infinitely expanding universe. Just because its finite doesn't mean that it is expanding (which it isn't, btw).

Amorphos wrote: if cyclical, then you have to count [and contrast to the infinite] how many cycles could have existed prior to and after it, where there will always be a given amount prior to and after, and a first instance - the very first universe.

No. What makes you think there would have to be a first?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: God and Motion

Postby Erik_ » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:50 pm

Amorphos wrote:The unmoved mover would still be a first instance of all motion, A causer of causality? [paradox]

Because the universe is finite, we think reality is, but the universe was itself infinite at one time, so we have to surely see the fundamentals as eternals. Ergo there wont be a prime mover where there is no beginning.

It all just happens and always has and will happen.


It's not, really, a paradox. I don't find it perplexing at all; makes perfect sense.

The physical universe had a beginning, but reality itself is eternal.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby James S Saint » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:57 pm

The "Prime Mover" is the primary cause of all motion and is eternal. Something cannot be a cause of something else without that something else appearing, else it really isn't the cause. Because the primary cause of all motion is eternal, motion itself must also be eternal.

The Prime Mover did not begin the universe, but rather is at the very foundation of any and all motion (aka "spirit"). The physical universe is made entirely of the changing, the motion itself, physical spirit. And such motion continues eternally because the Prime Mover for it is eternal (yet not itself physical).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: God and Motion

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:46 am

Erik_ wrote:Infinite regress seems like an illogical idea.
What seems more probable is an unmoved mover;
an eternal, static reality that willed things to move.
The first act of motion was caused by will-power.
It's safe to call this reality "God". I don't mean some
guy with a beard in the clouds, but rather the ultimate
reality - the eternal.

I don't think the universe came into existence from nothing.
The universe is eternal, but it has not eternally been in motion.

Thoughts are welcome



God farted existence into being where the great mystery has been finally solved by our very own Erik.

This finally solves that whole essence into being mumbo jumbo once and for all.
Civilization is a ship of fools headed to a one way destination of catastrophe and annihilation, its many captains populated by asshole-idiots that all agree it is unsinkable.

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Re: God and Motion

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:48 am

JSS,

Made of movement, huh? Chaotic affecting patterns of fluxing movement which values deeply.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:52 am

Definitional logic is that of motion, not movement. :confusion-scratchheadblue: I don't get "it."
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Mictlantecuhtli » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:53 am

I've just thought of something for all the objective pseudo religious creationists out there.

...Being and flatulence.....
Civilization is a ship of fools headed to a one way destination of catastrophe and annihilation, its many captains populated by asshole-idiots that all agree it is unsinkable.

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Re: God and Motion

Postby James S Saint » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:31 pm

Maniacal Mongoose wrote:JSS,

Made of movement, huh? Chaotic affecting patterns of fluxing movement

Precisely, although "Affectance" is a better term.
Maniacal Mongoose wrote:.. which values deeply.

I have no idea what that meant.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: God and Motion

Postby Meno_ » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:54 pm

Maniacal Mongoose wrote:Definitional logic is that of motion, not movement. :confusion-scratchheadblue: I don't get "it."



You don't because definitional logic is questionable. That is why movement can not be defined, hence it is not of consciousness, therefore, Parmenidies was right. There is only appearent knowledge. Knowledge of movement is appearance, as is knowledge it's self. Reality is different.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:11 pm

If everything is caused, then cause itself had a cause, but even more importantly, causelesness has a cause?!?!?
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Re: God and Motion

Postby James S Saint » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:13 pm

FYI:
"Definitional Logic" merely means that the words and concepts being used are clearly explained/defined and remain consistent throughout the reasoning. Definitional Logic prevents ambiguity in the language.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: God and Motion

Postby James S Saint » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:16 pm

Ecmandu wrote:If everything is caused, then cause itself had a cause

Not necessarily. If ausation has always existed, there need not be a cause for it, only a reason for why it has always existed (which turns out to be the impossibility of it not existing).

Ecmandu wrote:, but even more importantly, causelesness has a cause?!?!?

Not if causelessness doesn't exist.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: God and Motion

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:19 pm

I'll assume you meant to type causation instead of acausation...

Yeah... There's that too James

But basic logic is hard to crush with subtlety!!

Causation is an existent...

If all existents are caused, then causation was also caused...
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Meno_ » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:21 pm

[quote="James S Saint"]FYI:
"Definitional Logic" merely means that the words and concepts being used are clearly explained/defined and remain consistent throughout the reasoning. Definitional Logic prevents ambiguity in the language.[
/quote]


James,

That explanation turns on the relationship between logic and language. If, definitional logic is merely a tool to avoid confusions caused by definition, then it begs the ontological basis of logic per se.

There is no avoiding to this primary conflation, because language is primordial to logic, or, is it?

That's the problem with trying to define logic, primarily. The definitional explanation is on a less complex level. Which gets back to the problem of the Dasein.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Meno_ » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:24 pm

Ecmandu wrote:I'll assume you meant to type causation instead of acausation...

Yeah... There's that too James

B
ut basic logic is hard to crush with subtlety!!

Causation is an existent...


If all existents are caused, then causation was also caused...


Causation is another form of relationship, between existence, and being. It can be inferred into existence, but it can also be referred to non existence, as is in the case of the uncaused causation. Referential logic has been post-scribed by inference.
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