God and Motion

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Re: God and Motion

Postby Meno_ » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:26 pm

James, Ecmandu,

Both referential and inferential logic beg the Uncaused Cause, which is the most essential element in this argument. So there is no argument.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:44 pm

jerkey wrote:James, Ecmandu,

Both referential and inferential logic beg the Uncaused Cause, which is the most essential element in this argument. So there is no argument.


The uncaused cause is precisely what James is arguing, even though he hasn't used that term.

I'm pointing out that caused cause is the logical function of existents...

So where do we go from there?
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:02 pm

Ecmandu wrote:
jerkey wrote:James, Ecmandu,

Both referential and inferential logic beg the Uncaused Cause, which is the most essential element in this argument. So there is no argument.


The uncaused cause is precisely what James is arguing, even though he hasn't used that term.

I'm pointing out that caused cause is the logical function of existents...

So where do we go from there?


Let's take cause and acause out of the equation and use the more neutral term "change"

Is it unchanged change or changed change...

Well obviously change changing means no change at all...

So it's unchanged change...

Saying unchanged change is just a clever way of stating that change has always been and always will be
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Re: God and Motion

Postby James S Saint » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:23 pm

Ecmandu wrote:If all existents are caused, then causation was also caused...

No. Causation, as I said, can have existed eternally (and necessarily has).

The "Uncaused Cause", "Prime Mover", "God", is defined as an eternal entity. The confusion is that many people believe that it all had to begin. It didn't ever begin, because it was never without.

Ecmandu wrote:Let's take cause and acause out of the equation and use the more neutral term "change"

No, "change" is not a synonym for "cause". "Caused" refers to a change that was instigated by something. "Change doesn't require that.

jerkey wrote:Both referential and inferential logic beg the Uncaused Cause, which is the most essential element in this argument. So there is no argument.

No. When "uncaused" merely means "has always existed", there is no begging the question involved.
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:02 pm

Where in what reality did I not state...

Let's use the value neutral term change to analyze this ??

And yet somehow James, you got out if that, that I was using them as synonyms ..
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Arminius » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:20 am

James S Saint wrote:The "Prime Mover" is the primary cause of all motion and is eternal. Something cannot be a cause of something else without that something else appearing, else it really isn't the cause. Because the primary cause of all motion is eternal, motion itself must also be eternal.

The Prime Mover did not begin the universe, but rather is at the very foundation of any and all motion (aka "spirit"). The physical universe is made entirely of the changing, the motion itself, physical spirit. And such motion continues eternally because the Prime Mover for it is eternal (yet not itself physical).

So at first there was the Prime Mover (spiritual) and the universe (physical) and thus two universal realms: (1) the spiritual realm as the foundation of any and all motion (changing); (2) the physical realm containing the motion itself (physical spirit).
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Re: God and Motion

Postby Meno_ » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:37 am

Arminius, yes.

But the physical spirit is the most essential of all spirits, next to the Uncaused Cause. The physical Spirit is the highest Archangel, who unfortunately fell, because he got too close to IT.
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