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Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:29 am
by Arminius
Magnus Anderson wrote:Is it possible to clearly define vitalism?

Here's my attempt. Vitalism would be an idea that there is some kind of vital force that permeates everything. A sort of substance monism, I'd say. Or rather, substance monism regarding living beings. Non-living beings appear to be excluded.

I don't know how true this is. So it's someone else's turn to correct me and/or offer better, more accurate, definition.

Vitalism means that the organic life has a special vitality ("vis vitalis“) effecting life phenomenons that depend on that vitality. Vitalism rejects the exclusively mechanical and chemical explanation of life processes. The Neovitalism assumes that there is a teleologically effecting factor called "entelechy“, which is an Aristotelian term.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:57 am
by Magnus Anderson
Isn't vital force yet another name for mind, spirit, soul, consciousness?

Vitalism then would just be the idea that the immaterial (= mental) is more fundamental than the material (= physical.)

Solipsism in a sense.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:46 am
by James S Saint
The behavior/actions/spirit that defines a life versus anything else could be referred to as "vitalis", "orgone", or "life force". Some still believe that the vitalis force/behavior that we call "life" is not an emergent force from more fundamental forces of physics, but an entirely separate force.

As an emergent force, it obviously exists. But as a physically separate force from the "forces" of fundamental physics (once properly understood), I don't think so.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:17 am
by Arminius
Magnus Anderson wrote:Isn't vital force yet another name for mind, spirit, soul, consciousness?

There is a branch within the vitalism (especially neovitalism) that claims that the phenomena of life are not explainable by physicochemical "laws" (rules) but have their own "laws" (rules) that can be put down to a psyche-like "force" (=> Psychovitalism) or explained by the "entelechy" (as I already said).

Magnus Anderson wrote:Vitalism then would just be the idea that the immaterial (= mental) is more fundamental than the material (= physical.)

Yes.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:50 am
by Arminius
James S Saint wrote:The behavior/actions/spirit that defines a life versus anything else could be referred to as "vitalis", "orgone", or "life force". Some still believe that the vitalis force/behavior that we call "life" is not an emergent force from more fundamental forces of physics, but an entirely separate force.

As an emergent force, it obviously exists. But as a physically separate force from the "forces" of fundamental physics (once properly understood), I don't think so.

It is at least hard to believe that such a separate force exists, but that does not mean that it is not possible. Compare it, for instance, with the Aristotelian "entelechy", although it is not exactly the same. To Goethe entelechy was "ein Stück Ewigkeit, das den Körper lebend durchdringt" ("a piece of eternity that gets lively through the body").

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:24 am
by Mictlantecuhtli
Would Marquis De Sade or Diderot count?

What do you think of poets, dramatists, and fiction writers?

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:10 am
by Arminius
Interestingly, the Fibonacci numbers show some noteworthly mathematical specific features:

Due to the relations to the previous and the following number growth in nature seems to follow an addition law. The Fibonacci numbers are directly associated with the golden cut. The further one progresses subsequently, the more the quotient of successive numbers approaches to the golden cut (1,6180339887...) - for example: 13:8=1.625; 21:13=1.6153846; 34:21=1.6190476; 55:34=1.6176471; 89:55=1.6181818; 144:89=1.617978; 233:144=1.6180556; ... and so on). This approach is alternating - the quotients are alternately smaller and bigger than the golden cut (golden number, golden ratio):

Image
The Fibonacci numbers are the sums of the „shallow“diagonals (shown in red) of Pascal's triangle:

Image

Liber Abaci posed, and solved, a problem involving the growth of a population of rabbits based on idealized assumptions. The solution, generation by generation, was a sequence of numbers later known as Fibonacci numbers. Although Fibonacci's Liber Abaci contains the earliest known description of the sequence outside of India, the sequence had been noted by Indian mathematicians as early as the sixth century.[17][18][19][20]

In the Fibonacci sequence of numbers, each number is the sum of the previous two numbers. Fibonacci began the sequence not with 0, 1, 1, 2, as modern mathematicians do but with 1,1, 2, etc. He carried the calculation up to the thirteenth place (fourteenth in modern counting), that is 233, though another manuscript carries it to the next place: 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377. Fibonacci did not speak about the golden ratio as the limit of the ratio of consecutive numbers in this sequence.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:14 am
by Arminius
Maybe the Fibonacci sequence and the Golden cut are such a principle or force.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:18 am
by Arminius
HaHaHa wrote:Would Marquis De Sade or Diderot count?

What do you think of poets, dramatists, and fiction writers?

All life-philosophically relevant writers or tellers are also welcomed to this thread. :wink:

Image

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:58 pm
by MagsJ
Say during a person's years of formal education.. studying up to multiple subjects going into double figures, wouldn't that harvest a whole crop of philosophical influences on that person? from authors to artists to designers to etc.

A life philosophy can be based on multiple aspects of influence... Did you choose Goethe as one example?

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:04 pm
by Arminius
Hmm .... :-k

Yes, ... if you like .... :)

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:40 pm
by Arcturus Descending
A life philosophy can be based on multiple aspects of influence.


It certainly can be...

"Do you know I've been sitting here thinking to myself: that if I didn't believe in life, if I lost faith in the woman I love, lost faith in the order of things, were convinced in fact that everything is a disorderly, damnable, and perhaps devil-ridden chaos, if I were struck by every horror of man's disillusionment -- still I should want to live. Having once tasted of the cup, I would not turn away from it till I had drained it! At thirty though, I shall be sure to leave the cup even if I've not emptied it, and turn away -- where I don't know. But till I am thirty I know that my youth will triumph over everything -- every disillusionment, every disgust with life. I've asked myself many times whether there is in the world any despair that could overcome this frantic thirst for life. And I've come to the conclusion that there isn't, that is until I am thirty.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov


IT may not be stretching a point to say that being sent to prison was the best thing that ever happened to Fyodor Dostoyevsky. The alternative, death by firing squad, was certainly less appealing. And most observers have agreed that the years Dostoyevsky spent in Siberian imprisonment and exile from 1850 to 1859 were beneficial to his development as a man, writer and thinker, transforming him from a rather vain and hypersensitive prima donna flushed with overnight literary success (following the publication of his Dickensian novel ''Poor Folk'') into a serious and confident artist. What Dostoyevsky gained in prison - a remarkable breadth of tragic vision and a painful new understanding of the violent, irrepressible human impulse toward self-expression - he later injected into the novels he started writing soon after returning to civilization: ''Crime and Punishment,'' ''The Possessed,'' ''The Idiot'' and ''The Brothers Karamazov.'' Dostoyevsky's experiences in Siberia haunted him for the rest of his life and provided an inexhaustible stock of material that both inspired and terrified him. They also gave him lifetime membership in the distinguished club (still thriving, unfortunately) of Russian writers and intellectuals rewarded for their heretical political, philosophical or esthetic views with an unplanned sabbatical in the Eastern steppe.
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/31/books ... wanted=all

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:16 pm
by MagsJ
Arminius wrote:Hmm .... :-k

Yes, ... if you like .... :)

Ahhhhh come on man Arm.. give me something to work with here :confusion-shrug:

:lol:

You good yeah?

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:21 pm
by Fixed Cross
Arminius wrote:Yes. Henri Bergson (1859-1941) was a Jew. He was not the first and not the most significant life philosopher. Bergson was influenced by former life philosophers, mainly by Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (1844-1900) and Wilhelm Dilthey (1833-1911) who were also influenced by former life philosophers, mainly by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832) and Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860).


"Philosopher x was Jewish. Therefore I think not."

Magnus razor.

OP: look at the Presocratics. To my mind the most vital of all.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:31 pm
by MagsJ
Arcturus Descending wrote:
A life philosophy can be based on multiple aspects of influence.


It certainly can be...

"Do you know I've been sitting here thinking to myself: that if I didn't believe in life, if I lost faith in the woman I love, lost faith in the order of things, were convinced in fact that everything is a disorderly, damnable, and perhaps devil-ridden chaos, if I were struck by every horror of man's disillusionment -- still I should want to live. Having once tasted of the cup, I would not turn away from it till I had drained it! At thirty though, I shall be sure to leave the cup even if I've not emptied it, and turn away -- where I don't know. But till I am thirty I know that my youth will triumph over everything -- every disillusionment, every disgust with life. I've asked myself many times whether there is in the world any despair that could overcome this frantic thirst for life. And I've come to the conclusion that there isn't, that is until I am thirty.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov


IT may not be stretching a point to say that being sent to prison was the best thing that ever happened to Fyodor Dostoyevsky. The alternative, death by firing squad, was certainly less appealing. And most observers have agreed that the years Dostoyevsky spent in Siberian imprisonment and exile from 1850 to 1859 were beneficial to his development as a man, writer and thinker, transforming him from a rather vain and hypersensitive prima donna flushed with overnight literary success (following the publication of his Dickensian novel ''Poor Folk'') into a serious and confident artist. What Dostoyevsky gained in prison - a remarkable breadth of tragic vision and a painful new understanding of the violent, irrepressible human impulse toward self-expression - he later injected into the novels he started writing soon after returning to civilization: ''Crime and Punishment,'' ''The Possessed,'' ''The Idiot'' and ''The Brothers Karamazov.'' Dostoyevsky's experiences in Siberia haunted him for the rest of his life and provided an inexhaustible stock of material that both inspired and terrified him. They also gave him lifetime membership in the distinguished club (still thriving, unfortunately) of Russian writers and intellectuals rewarded for their heretical political, philosophical or esthetic views with an unplanned sabbatical in the Eastern steppe.
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/31/books ... wanted=all

A nice biographical piece Arc.

Do you have the one.. or the many.. influences on your life so far, Arc... imprisonment not expected to be one of them. ;)

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:07 pm
by Arminius
MagsJ wrote:.. give me something to work with here :confusion-shrug:

Work with Goethe's works, for example (?) .

MagsJ wrote: :lol:

:lol: ?

MagsJ wrote:You good yeah?

I good?

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:21 pm
by Fixed Cross
Arcturus Descending wrote:
A life philosophy can be based on multiple aspects of influence.


It certainly can be...

"Do you know I've been sitting here thinking to myself: that if I didn't believe in life, if I lost faith in the woman I love, lost faith in the order of things, were convinced in fact that everything is a disorderly, damnable, and perhaps devil-ridden chaos, if I were struck by every horror of man's disillusionment -- still I should want to live. Having once tasted of the cup, I would not turn away from it till I had drained it! At thirty though, I shall be sure to leave the cup even if I've not emptied it, and turn away -- where I don't know. But till I am thirty I know that my youth will triumph over everything -- every disillusionment, every disgust with life. I've asked myself many times whether there is in the world any despair that could overcome this frantic thirst for life. And I've come to the conclusion that there isn't, that is until I am thirty.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov


IT may not be stretching a point to say that being sent to prison was the best thing that ever happened to Fyodor Dostoyevsky. The alternative, death by firing squad, was certainly less appealing. And most observers have agreed that the years Dostoyevsky spent in Siberian imprisonment and exile from 1850 to 1859 were beneficial to his development as a man, writer and thinker, transforming him from a rather vain and hypersensitive prima donna flushed with overnight literary success (following the publication of his Dickensian novel ''Poor Folk'') into a serious and confident artist. What Dostoyevsky gained in prison - a remarkable breadth of tragic vision and a painful new understanding of the violent, irrepressible human impulse toward self-expression - he later injected into the novels he started writing soon after returning to civilization: ''Crime and Punishment,'' ''The Possessed,'' ''The Idiot'' and ''The Brothers Karamazov.'' Dostoyevsky's experiences in Siberia haunted him for the rest of his life and provided an inexhaustible stock of material that both inspired and terrified him. They also gave him lifetime membership in the distinguished club (still thriving, unfortunately) of Russian writers and intellectuals rewarded for their heretical political, philosophical or esthetic views with an unplanned sabbatical in the Eastern steppe.
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/31/books ... wanted=all

Great post Arc.

Incidentally, Nietzsche wrote that Dostoyewsky was the only psychologist from whom he could learn.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:42 am
by MagsJ
Arminius wrote:Work with Goethe's works, for example (?) .

:lol: ?

I good?

We studied the music but not the man, but studying the music meant that we had to delve into the man's psyche.. but only enough to understand the music.

Are you asking me or telling me that you're good/well? :confusion-shrug:
:lol:

...so many influences/so little time, sayeth the current urban demographic.. rendering them near impossible to unravel in thought or feeling.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:18 am
by Arminius
MagsJ wrote:
Arminius wrote:Work with Goethe's works, for example (?) .

:lol: ?

I good?

We studied the music but not the man, but studying the music meant that we had to delve into the man's psyche.. but only enough to understand the music.

Are you asking me or telling me that you're good/well? :confusion-shrug:
:lol:

...so many influences/so little time, sayeth the current urban demographic.. rendering them near impossible to unravel in thought or feeling.

I am asking you: "What are you talking about?“

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:30 am
by MagsJ
"You good yeah?" is a very casual urban way of saying "How are you?" and how is Arminius these days?

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:59 am
by Arminius
MagsJ wrote:"You good yeah?" is a very casual urban way of saying "How are you?" and how is Arminius these days?

A, yh., I so. Thks. I fine. :)

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:29 am
by James S Saint
Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:The behavior/actions/spirit that defines a life versus anything else could be referred to as "vitalis", "orgone", or "life force". Some still believe that the vitalis force/behavior that we call "life" is not an emergent force from more fundamental forces of physics, but an entirely separate force.

As an emergent force, it obviously exists. But as a physically separate force from the "forces" of fundamental physics (once properly understood), I don't think so.

It is at least hard to believe that such a separate force exists, but that does not mean that it is not possible. Compare it, for instance, with the Aristotelian "entelechy", although it is not exactly the same. To Goethe entelechy was "ein Stück Ewigkeit, das den Körper lebend durchdringt" ("a piece of eternity that gets lively through the body").

It is impossible for it to exist outside of RM:AO, but then the modern standard forces in physics don't exist in RM:AO either. Forces don't actually exist at all except as emergent, aberrant appearances.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:19 am
by Arminius
James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:The behavior/actions/spirit that defines a life versus anything else could be referred to as "vitalis", "orgone", or "life force". Some still believe that the vitalis force/behavior that we call "life" is not an emergent force from more fundamental forces of physics, but an entirely separate force.

As an emergent force, it obviously exists. But as a physically separate force from the "forces" of fundamental physics (once properly understood), I don't think so.

It is at least hard to believe that such a separate force exists, but that does not mean that it is not possible. Compare it, for instance, with the Aristotelian "entelechy", although it is not exactly the same. To Goethe entelechy was "ein Stück Ewigkeit, das den Körper lebend durchdringt" ("a piece of eternity that gets lively through the body").

It is impossible for it to exist outside of RM:AO, but then the modern standard forces in physics don't exist in RM:AO either. Forces don't actually exist at all except as emergent, aberrant appearances.

Compare: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=186832&hilit=forces+or+farces.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:36 am
by Meno_
Just because there is such variety of interpretations as to what constitutes a life philosophy, one could say, that it is tantamount to philosophy of life. Elan-vital implies a surge of energy of the force of life toward higher Being, and it subscribes in its technical mode into what has come to be called philosophy of
mind.

The Elan Vital concept was popular at a time when magnetism, either were given substantial credence.

In its wider context, life philosophy can include all aspects of life, as well as the most poignant.

Re: Life Philosophy.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:47 pm
by Arminius
I guess you mean Mesmerism by "magnetism", invented by Franz Friedrich Anton Mesmer (1734-1815) in the 1780's. So magnetism occured very much earlier than Bergson's "élan vital" who coined this concept in 1907. But besides the magnetism and the later concept of "élan vital": Life philosophy means more than that, as I already said several times.

Mesmer's gravestone in Meersburg:

Image