Beautiful and Ugly

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Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Erik_ » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:23 pm

What is the philosophy of beauty?
Why does beauty exist?
What does it mean for something to be ugly?

Share your thoughts
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Amorphos » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:26 pm

Beauty can only be defined by the lack of ugly, and ugly can only be defined by a lack of beauty. - my thoughts.
The truth is naked,
Once it is written it is lost.
Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
the fully painted picture, reveals an empty canvas
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Erik_ » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:30 pm

Amorphos wrote:Beauty can only be defined by the lack of ugly, and ugly can only be defined by a lack of beauty. - my thoughts.


What does it mean for something to be beautiful, according to you, then?
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Arminius » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:25 pm

Erik_ wrote:What is the philosophy of beauty?
Why does beauty exist?
What does it mean for something to be ugly?

Share your thoughts

Hello, Erik. Nice to have you back here. :)

There are three most important branches of philosophy: (1.) aesthetics, (2.) ethics, (3.) logic. As Goethe said: "dem Schönen, Guten, Wahren" ("to the beauty, good, true"). This was meant as unit, thus as the classical philosophy. So I think that there are some aspects or things that can also objectively be considered as beauty: symmetry, shapeliness (well-proportioned aspects or things), certain geometrical figures, beings consisting of structures that are based on certain mathematical numbers (e.g.: the Fibonacci sequence or the golden cut).

Fibonacci sequence (1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765...):

Image Image

Golden cut (1,6178...):
Image Image Image Image
Image
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Kriswest » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:39 pm

But, when ugly is good it is beautiful. A black widow fits your description to a T. Is it beautiful? Some of the most deadliest creatures and plants are just fantastically beautiful to the eye but, if recognized the mind makes it ugly. Knowledge is what should give beauty or ugly to anything or anyone.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:44 pm

Ugly can be measured by it's repulse. if it maes you want to look away, it is ugly, if it draw you in closer, it is beautiful.

of course, some things can be so ugly that we find ourselves consciously deciding to look closer, of course while fighting still our internal energies still being repulsed by it.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Kriswest » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:56 pm

That is true for the ignorant and emotional. Uneducated and emotions describe beauty and ugly in such a primitive perspective as that.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:53 am

Kriswest wrote:That is true for the ignorant and emotional. Uneducated and emotions describe beauty and ugly in such a primitive perspective as that.


Primitive=ancient=past=back to the basics.

You would probably give me some convoluted psuedo-explanation that is only half true.

Why are you so eager to prove? And put me down? It must be something you lack. Whatever you lack I have.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby mannequin » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:27 am

She's probably ugly with ugly babies too.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Prismatic567 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:27 am

To facilitate survival [there I go again on this] and continuation of the next generation, all humans are endowed with neural circuit to detect whatever is 'beautiful' and whatever is 'ugly.'
Generally what is systematic, symmetrical, orderly, and other programmed patterns and characteristics are instinctively perceived as 'beautiful.'

As with all aspects of nature, there are degrees variations, deviations and exceptions.
Thus in some cases due to bad connections in the brain, there is a minority of people who are different from the norm [majority] and perceive the opposite from the majority.

Normally a symmetrical face is deemed to be beautiful and in general this is denote the person is healthy.
While many studies have shown that symmetric faces (e.g. left image above) are
preferred to relatively asymmetric faces (e.g. right image above), the reason why
symmetric faces are preferred is controversial.
The EvolutionaryAdvantage view
proposes that symmetric faces are preferred because symmetric individuals are
particularly healthy.
The Perceptual Bias view, however, proposes that symmetric
faces are preferred because symmetric stimuli of any kind are more easily processed
by the visual system than their asymmetric counterparts.
http://faceresearch.org/students/notes/symmetry.pdf


Despite the counter views, I still believe the easier processing is ultimately related to health because the genes are processing in a healthy & balanced manner rather than producing say a twisted face.
Sufficiently big [not gigantic] nicely form breasts are beautiful because they are a healthy potential of milk supply for the youngs.
There are many features that are programmed to be perceived by the 'beauty' neural circuit as beautiful.
These are the fundamentals and instinctual. This beauty instinct trigger the bonding [primary emotion of love] and attraction/desire towards the beautiful object.

However in many cases, modern man has strayed from the instinctual and developed various tendencies to perceive what is beautiful based on the influence of 'nurture' and environmental factors.

Whatever [disorders] is perceived as ugly instinctively will trigger the disgust emotions and avoidance neural circuit set.

Thus to understand what is beautiful [or ugly] we need to first fall back fundamentally on the "survival and procreation on the next generation" instinct and its associated neural circuits in the brain that theoretically exist in all human beings.

As typical with nature we should expect variations, deviations and exceptions from the norm [majority].

Then we do research to understand why there are variations from the norms, it root causes, the neural and other machinery involved and the philosophical and other basis for such variations.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby A Shieldmaiden » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:57 am

https://youtu.be/k3Fa4lOQfbA

Serge Gainsbourg remarked, ‘ugliness is superior to beauty because it lasts longer’. Maybe a thing of ugliness is a joy forever.

It seems obvious why he would think this way, but I tend to agree with him. In today's society there is an obsession with beauty and a real fear of ugliness.

In biblical terms those noted for physical beauty were often great disappointments. Rebekah was “very beautiful” (Genesis 26:7), but she was also a deceiver and manipulator. Saul was a man of physical beauty, but his disobedience hurt the nation of Israel.

The word ugly comes from an old Norse word 'ugga' which translates as 'aggressive' and from this comes a sense of violence, but it also means there is much more variety and surprise in ugliness.

The word beauty is sedative, soothing and predictable rather than challenging.

Should women focus on the inner qualities, in order to obtain a gentle and quiet spirit to be truly beautiful or is a ravishing beautiful exterior sufficient to clarify the word Beauty solely on this merit alone, when it would seem people of one culture seldom see beauty in people of a different culture.

‘Beauty is, no big deal, but the lack of it is’............


yet undeniably, ugliness......... fascinates.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Kriswest » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:37 am

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:
Kriswest wrote:That is true for the ignorant and emotional. Uneducated and emotions describe beauty and ugly in such a primitive perspective as that.


Primitive=ancient=past=back to the basics.

You would probably give me some convoluted psuedo-explanation that is only half true.

Why are you so eager to prove? And put me down? It must be something you lack. Whatever you lack I have.

It was not an insult. It was just a comment that people are going to see different based upon education and emotion. It is a primitive perspective
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Only_Humean » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:52 pm

mannequin warned and temporarily banned.
Image

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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:16 pm

Kriswest wrote:
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:
Kriswest wrote:That is true for the ignorant and emotional. Uneducated and emotions describe beauty and ugly in such a primitive perspective as that.


Primitive=ancient=past=back to the basics.

You would probably give me some convoluted psuedo-explanation that is only half true.

Why are you so eager to prove? And put me down? It must be something you lack. Whatever you lack I have.

It was not an insult. It was just a comment that people are going to see different based upon education and emotion. It is a primitive perspective


So calling someone ignorant and uneducated was not an insult...............right............
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:22 pm

Symterry is not beauty, Harrison ford has an asymettrical face and is rated as handsome.

For those of you into girls, here are some pics
Image
Notice how the point of her hair is to make her face asymetrical, and thus more beautiful.

Here is some symetrical trash 4 u.
Image
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Kriswest » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:50 pm

If the intent was to insult then it would be an insult. It is not the words or their meaning ,, it is intent.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:56 pm

So if i call someone fugly alls i gotta do is say "i had no intent to insult" n im good?
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Erik_ » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:57 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:
Here is some symetrical trash 4 u.
Image


Haha! :lol:

I agree with Prismatic that beauty facilitates survival, but just curious if further edification is possible on this topic.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Kriswest » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:43 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:So if i call someone fugly alls i gotta do is say "i had no intent to insult" n im good?

You are deliberately twisting, why? What are you getting out of it? Is it a knee jerk reaction to defend?
Your reply does not merit a comment from me not explaination. Have a fun day.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:48 pm

You should have just said
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Kriswest » Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:53 pm

So?
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Fixed Cross » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:32 pm

Beauty represents value.

both are in the eyes of the behonder, but there is no other thing. Than beholding "eyes" - perspectives.

Because perspectives group, to survive and gain power and procreate, their standards blend and combine and become what the unwashed think of as 'objective truth' or 'universal standard'.

(like how a group of folks comes up with a story they all like and then decide it is the point to all being)
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
Image -
Value Ontology - Philosophy 77 - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby MagsJ » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:14 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:Beauty represents value.

both are in the eyes of the behonder, but there is no other thing. Than beholding "eyes" - perspectives.

Because perspectives group, to survive and gain power and procreate, their standards blend and combine and become what the unwashed think of as 'objective truth' or 'universal standard'.

(like how a group of folks comes up with a story they all like and then decide it is the point to all being)

Beautiful..
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ
I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Huh! - MagsJ
You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Arminius » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:01 am

Arminius wrote:
Erik_ wrote:What is the philosophy of beauty?
Why does beauty exist?
What does it mean for something to be ugly?

Share your thoughts

Hello, Erik. Nice to have you back here. :)

There are three most important branches of philosophy: (1.) aesthetics, (2.) ethics, (3.) logic. As Goethe said: "dem Schönen, Guten, Wahren" ("to the beauty, good, true"). This was meant as unit, thus as the classical philosophy. So I think that there are some aspects or things that can also objectively be considered as beauty: symmetry, shapeliness (well-proportioned aspects or things), certain geometrical figures, beings consisting of structures that are based on certain mathematical numbers (e.g.: the Fibonacci sequence or the golden cut).

Fibonacci sequence (1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765...):

Image Image

Golden cut (1,6178...):
Image Image Image Image

Interestingly, the Fibonacci numbers show some noteworthly mathematical specific features:

Due to the relations to the previous and the following number growth in nature seems to follow an addition law. The Fibonacci numbers are directly associated with the golden cut. The further one progresses subsequently, the more the quotient of successive numbers approaches to the golden cut (1,6180339887...) - for example: 13:8=1.625; 21:13=1.6153846; 34:21=1.6190476; 55:34=1.6176471; 89:55=1.6181818; 144:89=1.617978; 233:144=1.6180556; ... and so on). This approach is alternating - the quotients are alternately smaller and bigger than the golden cut (golden number, golden ratio):

Image
The Fibonacci numbers are the sums of the „shallow“diagonals (shown in red) of Pascal's triangle:

Image

Liber Abaci posed, and solved, a problem involving the growth of a population of rabbits based on idealized assumptions. The solution, generation by generation, was a sequence of numbers later known as Fibonacci numbers. Although Fibonacci's Liber Abaci contains the earliest known description of the sequence outside of India, the sequence had been noted by Indian mathematicians as early as the sixth century.[17][18][19][20]

In the Fibonacci sequence of numbers, each number is the sum of the previous two numbers. Fibonacci began the sequence not with 0, 1, 1, 2, as modern mathematicians do but with 1,1, 2, etc. He carried the calculation up to the thirteenth place (fourteenth in modern counting), that is 233, though another manuscript carries it to the next place: 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377. Fibonacci did not speak about the golden ratio as the limit of the ratio of consecutive numbers in this sequence.
Image
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Arminius » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:28 am

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Symterry is not beauty, Harrison ford has an asymettrical face and is rated as handsome.

For those of you into girls, here are some pics
Image]

There is symmetry almost everywhere in that picture. The woman is very syymmetrical. Her face would be more beautiful if it was not covered. his covered face is nevertheless beautiful, because everyone knows how the face looks like if it is not covered. But what if she has only one eye? :wink:

Symmetry is not the only but one of the most important aspects of beauty. Others are shapeliness (well-proportioned aspects or things), certain geometrical figures, beings consisting of structures that are based on certain mathematical numbers (e.g.: the Fibonacci sequence or the golden cut).
Image
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