Beautiful and Ugly

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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:50 am

Bullshit. She looks worse with her face covered.

Covering half the face, It's a common trick pple use to make themselves look pretty.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:46 am

Arminius wrote:
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Symterry is not beauty, Harrison ford has an asymettrical face and is rated as handsome.

For those of you into girls, here are some pics
Image]

There is symmetry almost everywhere in that picture. The woman is very syymmetrical. Her face would be more beautiful if it was not covered. his covered face is nevertheless beautiful, because everyone knows how the face looks like if it is not covered. But what if she has only one eye? :wink:

Symmetry is not the only but one of the most important aspects of beauty. Others are shapeliness (well-proportioned aspects or things), certain geometrical figures, beings consisting of structures that are based on certain mathematical numbers (e.g.: the Fibonacci sequence or the golden cut).
Symmetry is not beautiful by itself but only when it is conditioned upon evolutionary factors such as survival, procreation, and the likes.

In addition some features are conditioned and relative to either male or female. What is beauty [aesthetic] to the male may not be beauty to the female and vice-versa.

Males find the higher hips to shoulder ratio more beautiful and sexy while the female will favor a higher shoulder to hips ratio. The hips to shoulder ratio in general has evolutionary advantage to mankind in terms of procreation and other advantages. A female with very small hips, thus smaller hips to shoulder ratio will likely to face birth difficulty in general.

Symmetry in the physical bodies of the male or female denote general [not specific] health of the person and thus has first impression significance. The physiological elements are controlled by two separate hemispheres in the brain. Any defects in one side [sign of non-symmetry] and thus an imbalance function in the brain. Wherever there is a significant difference between the two sides of the physical body, then there is a likely possible of something is wrong and the person is not as healthy as the average person.
Thus asymmetry is a sign and warning for the opposite sex or others to be careful and investigate further in making decisions that are relevant to the matter.

The above issues are instinctual and most people in the modern era do not bother about instincts and intuitions any way.

Any one into photography or art?
Re the aesthetic elements of photography or art [general, not modern], what is beauty in this fields are driven by evolutionary and survival elements.

The Rule of Thirds
http://digital-photography-school.com/rule-of-thirds/
In photography as in art [general] one must follow the Rule of Thirds generally to ensure one's photograph is considered to have aesthetic [beauty] value.
This is directly linked to evolutionary elements of survival and the position of they eyes to hunt from food and dealing with enemies, etc.
By obeying the Rule of the Thirds, the main subject[s] are placed in alignment with the position of the two eyes and thus there is no stress and extra effort of the eyes to move from its normal position.

Subject in the Middle - A Taboo
In contrast, in general [there are exceptions, portraits, etc.] it is a serious Taboo to put the main subject in the middle. This is because the main subject in the middle forced the two eyes to focus into the center and away from its normal position and thus make one very uncomfortable if the focus need to be kept for a long time.

Level Horizon
If the horizon in a photograph is not level, then the photo is marked down in terms of aesthetic.
A level horizon is pertinent to facilitate hunting in the savannah or plains to assess the position of the prey [food]. An unlevel horizon in a photo can give many a headache as the brain has to use efforts to right it.

Note there are exceptions to the above, but they are besides the point.

So, what is beauty to humans is conditioned upon survival, procreation, and the continuation of the next generation of humans.
There is no intrinsic beauty by itself.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Ultimate Philosophy 1001 » Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:35 pm

Women like broad shoulders and broad hips. Broad hips = more leg muscles.

The correlation stems from them not dating men who have small shoulders, since most of them give the weakling vibe and they don't take them seriously.

Now are men really attracted to small shoulders or just wide hips.
Men are really just attracted to wide hips, they don't care what shoulder size a woman has.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Erik_ » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:06 pm

Symmetry is not the sole factor on which beauty is based.

Example: sunsets, the clouds reflecting the sun-light, are often lacking symmetry.

The sublime. It doesn't necessarily facilitate survival either; finding sunsets beautiful is not essential, but it def. can be conducive.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Arminius » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:22 pm

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Bullshit.

Why so unkind?

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:She looks worse with her face covered.

No, because it is also true that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. So beauty has a subjective side too. Of course, I never said that symmetry was the sole, the only aspect of beauty. But symmetry is nevertheless a relevant aspect of beauty.

Image Image Image

Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Covering half the face, It's a common trick pple use to make themselves look pretty.

Because they know how the face looks like when it is not covered. And they want to make others curious. Do you not think that there is some psychology behind it?
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Arminius » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:39 pm

Erik_ wrote:Symmetry is not the sole factor on which beauty is based.

Example: sunsets, the clouds reflecting the sun-light, are often lacking symmetry.

The sublime. It doesn't necessarily facilitate survival either; finding sunsets beautiful is not essential, but it def. can be conducive.

Nobody here said that symmetry was the sole factor on which beauty is based. But that does not automatically mean that symmetry has nothing to do with beauty.

For example: Baroque gardens are full of symmetry, and that is the reason why some people do not like them as much as other gardens. But there are people too who like baroque gardens. And they have good reasons for liking baroque gardens. The aspect that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder is relevant too.

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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Erik_ » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:12 pm

You're right; nobody here said that. But I was just making a point, because people often site symmetry as the definition of what is beautiful.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:00 am

One point to be added is whatever is triggered within the beauty algorithm in the brain must ultimately be linked to the pleasure circuit [or algorithm] which generate different types, shades and degrees of pleasure that emote behaviors.

I believe this pleasure algorithm is a significant player in the final decision of what determines 'beauty' at the normal conscious level. This is what determine what we called beauty is in the 'eye' of the beholder.
For example if there is deviation from norm, that person may sense beauty from what the majority would perceive as ugly, disgusting, evil, etc. There are many such perverts at the fringes.

If pleasure ultimately determines what is beauty, then how did some people see/perceive beauty/pleasure in pain-expressions or self-torture.
My hypothesis is there a ricochet effect that hit the pleasure circuit eventually.

For example, in general what trigger pains is deemed to be ugly, but in some exceptional cases, certain fringe triggers and activations ricochet and hit the pleasure circuit eventually thus triggering a strong enough ending 'beauty' effect and perception. In this case, the abnormal perceive what is supposed to be ugly to the normal person, as some thing 'beautiful'.
One classic example of this are those into hanging their body by hooks and swinging or various pain-inducing and masochistic practices. In this case, the body naturally produce endorphins, the feel good neurochemicals to minimize the pain. If the endorphin levels are strong enough to surpass the pain threshold then one will get a sense of 'high.'
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Kriswest » Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:26 am

Beauty and ugly is not science.
I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby omar » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:38 am

A Shieldmaiden wrote:https://youtu.be/k3Fa4lOQfbA

Serge Gainsbourg remarked, ‘ugliness is superior to beauty because it lasts longer’. Maybe a thing of ugliness is a joy forever.

It seems obvious why he would think this way, but I tend to agree with him. In today's society there is an obsession with beauty and a real fear of ugliness.

In biblical terms those noted for physical beauty were often great disappointments. Rebekah was “very beautiful” (Genesis 26:7), but she was also a deceiver and manipulator. Saul was a man of physical beauty, but his disobedience hurt the nation of Israel.

The word ugly comes from an old Norse word 'ugga' which translates as 'aggressive' and from this comes a sense of violence, but it also means there is much more variety and surprise in ugliness.

The word beauty is sedative, soothing and predictable rather than challenging.

Should women focus on the inner qualities, in order to obtain a gentle and quiet spirit to be truly beautiful or is a ravishing beautiful exterior sufficient to clarify the word Beauty solely on this merit alone, when it would seem people of one culture seldom see beauty in people of a different culture.

‘Beauty is, no big deal, but the lack of it is’............


yet undeniably, ugliness......... fascinates.


I think that the superiority of ugliness over beauty depends on how the observer defines that standard. For me longevity does not convey superiority on anything...but that's me. To me beauty is tied to rarity. Our experience of beauty, in my opinion, is tied with our unfamiliarity with the object or experience.
Eddie Murphy in "Boomerang" was surrounded by beautiful women, and yet to him they were average because he had begun to judge them by their feet. The feet in themselves probably were not that exciting but he saw beauty in a set of feet that were unfamiliar to his experience.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Jongleur » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:37 am

Arminius wrote:
Ultimate Philosophy 1001 wrote:Covering half the face, It's a common trick pple use to make themselves look pretty.

Because they know how the face looks like when it is not covered. And they want to make others curious. Do you not think that there is some psychology behind it?


Could we say that mystery is beautiful or at least attractive? Would it be the mystery itself which is attractive or the inspiration it gives us to be the mystery solver, or the expectation that the solution to the mystery is beautiful?

A different thought referring to the main subject of the thread: Romantic art often depicts scenes of grandeur, what is unfathomable or beyond the sole capability of the observer to create:

Image

In connection with that thought is the idea of making a reality what did not exist before, particularly if it is an expression of grandeur. That potential to create inspires the imagination of others and causes them to set out into the world with their own plans and aims.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Jongleur » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:13 pm

Prismatic567 wrote:To facilitate survival [there I go again on this] and continuation of the next generation, all humans are endowed with neural circuit to detect whatever is 'beautiful' and whatever is 'ugly.'


Erik_ wrote:I agree with Prismatic that beauty facilitates survival, but just curious if further edification is possible on this topic.


While I agree with this to a degree and can apply it to things like health appearing beautiful and the presence of disease repellent (eg. leprosy), I am having a more difficult time applying it to other things.

For example in architecture, a functional and utilitarian building appears less beautiful, or even ugly:

Image


In comparison to one which contains a lot of ornamentation. There is nothing that I can think of in ornamentation that fundamentally aids survival. In some ways, because of the time and resources which must be directed into it, might even be detrimental to survival because excessive:

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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:22 pm

Rather ornaments often enough prevent man from deciding to tear a building down.
Ornaments required skilled craft, which is a high value.
People recognize this instinctively.
Ornaments, when well done, thus directly aid survival.

Paradoxically, what doesn't dare to be fragile at least in part has little chance in this world.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides
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Value Ontology - Philosophy 77 - sumofalltemples - The Magical Tree of Life Academy
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Jongleur » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:26 am

Fixed Cross wrote:Rather ornaments often enough prevent man from deciding to tear a building down.
Ornaments required skilled craft, which is a high value.
People recognize this instinctively.
Ornaments, when well done, thus directly aid survival.

Paradoxically, what doesn't dare to be fragile at least in part has little chance in this world.


Please read to the end because I made some developments in my considerations as I went along.

I still don't understand:

Do you mean that because people instinctively recognize that ornaments require skill to produce, they value them? I can see that the quality of having skill could be used to aid survival, but not how that would mean that the ornaments themselves aid survival. Skill, if we think about things like dexterity and delicacy, might be used for something which doesn't aid survival or even endangers survival or to create something repelling.

I may have partly come a step further in my ponderings.

The original post asked why does beauty exist. Prismatic said to facilitate survival.

Beauty exists to facilitate survival.
Ornaments are beautiful.
Ornaments exist to facilitate survival.

Are we saying that ornaments facilitate survival because they are beautiful?

I guess then the question (in general, not to anyone in particular) is rather, why does beauty facilitate survival? If it is because we see, instinctively, patterns or qualities that would aid our survival, might then recognizing the patterns and qualities in things which don't directly aid our survival ultimately hinder it by putting resources into obtaining and protecting those things which aren't directly beneficial to survival?

I am adding a few more thoughts that I had here. I think I might have understood it. Water helps facilitate survival but it can also be detrimental if one drink's too much at once, and in the same way beauty can facilitate survival by making someone want to continue living, but over-indulging in it or seeking it when other, more pressing things need to be done, can be detrimental.

That could answer the question of why beauty exists or at least why we continue to propagate beauty. To be clear though we aren't saying that things are necessarily beautiful because they facilitate survival (that the facilitating survival is what makes them beautiful) are we? In that case I might still not understand.

Also something weird I thought of because of the above consideration. If we care for beauty because it makes us want to live, does that mean that the attraction to beauty can arise from a feeling of weakness, because we need it to want to continue living?

Those are some more thoughts I had on the subject.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:01 pm

External beauty ... beauty that is perceived by our senses ... is a mirror reflection of "inner beauty" ... though sometimes difficult to differentiate. For example, a gorgeous woman may protect her facade until she opens her mouth.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:09 pm

All human behavior is based upon the perception of hope and threat, PHT. What is perceived as beauty by any one individual (human or not) is partially innate, genetics and also learned associations. Beauty entails a great many subtle factors, individually assessed, such as symmetry, color, shape, relative size, strength, health, prowess, intelligence, orderliness, manliness, softness,.... All perceived associations combine to sum up to a perception (whether accurate or not) of the balance of hope and threat.

Thus literally every individual will have differing tastes and assessing the beauty of each thing differently. But despite the differences, there are many things that tend to be far more commonly perceived as either hope or threat than others. Such attributes are not truly universal, but merely far more common. Attributes associated with health tend to be one of those very common perceptions of hope. No doubt such is due to evolutionary influences and exist in all creatures. Attributes perceived as associated with ill health tend to be perceived as threat by all creatures. But there are other common attributes as well.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby Meno_ » Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:28 pm

Beauty and the ugly, the beast within, are at times totally closed off, separated by a membrane of infinitely subtle durability, porously impenetrable not by design, but by the increasingly reflecting cavern in which it resides, fearful of breaking into the light, of reason destined to call back
back again.

This is the darkness from whence no light can shine through, it wants to borne again, to the degree it fears a prior mabifestation, with renewed earnest promise to remember that which was shut out, shut out by someone else but him,

This time please don't call into the same trap, but which she again reach for that fruit of judgement for which Paris so calmly judged?

Such judgement rather, not be made for mixing the rhyme and reason.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:11 am

All human behavior is based upon the perception of hope and threat, PHT.


A priori assumptions stemming from common individual human experience(s).

An individual experience precedes a perception of threat ... absence of an individual experience precedes perception of hope.

Words that are not confirmed by individual experience are as transient as a fart in a wind storm ... a whiff may visit your nose but this transient whiff is no substitute for the taste, smell, feeling and sound of your own farts.

Individual experience(s) ... not carefully and thoroughly examined ... are like a precious gift that sits on the kitchen table unopened.
"The unexamined life is not worth living." Socrates


Let me share one of this morning's trivial experiences. After my routine internet surfing ... felt like breakfast at KFC. As some of you know KFC is as closest to Western food available here ... and it's not exactly Western KFC.

I ordered my regular breakfast ... 2 coffees and 2 bacon/egg hamburgers. The young girl explained to me ... in Chinese of course ... there is no coffee available. Suppose the disappointment on my face attracted the attention of another KFC employee ... I'm probably their best customer. She tried to tell me there is no sugar and asked if I still wanted 2 coffees. I wasn't exactly sure what she was talking about but I nodded my head up and down to indicate I will take what ever they have. Turns out to be two black coffees ... I never use the KFC creamers.

So what's the big deal?

I have drank more than 50,000 individual cups of coffee in my life and I don't remember ever drinking a coffee without sugar. This morning I drank my first black coffee ... it wasn't so bad.

So what's the big deal?

The experience ... while not earth shattering ... was unique. Suggests there is something significant/important in this experience.

My first thoughts were:

1) You don't always get what you want ... what you ask for.

2) Some bitter experience(s) is on the way.

After more light hearted contemplation the notion "unique" kept cropping up ... my first black coffee. A harbinger? ... something unique is on the way ... be vigilant.

Who the hell knows eh! :)

Most people would say ... "Who the hell cares!" :)

I do!
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby James S Saint » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:29 am

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
All human behavior is based upon the perception of hope and threat, PHT.


A priori assumptions stemming from common individual human experience(s).

An individual experience precedes a perception of threat ... absence of an individual experience precedes perception of hope.

Words that are not confirmed by individual experience are as transient as a fart in a wind storm ... a whiff may visit your nose but this transient whiff is no substitute for the taste, smell, feeling and sound of your own farts.

Individual experience(s) ... not carefully and thoroughly examined ... are like a precious gift that sits on the kitchen table unopened.

Word the speaker should seriously reflect upon (as in mirror).

There was absolutely zero "assumptions" involved in:
James S Saint wrote:All human behavior is based upon the perception of hope and threat, PHT.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:04 pm

There was absolutely zero "assumptions" involved in:


Implicit assumptions or error(s) of omission ... choose your poison. :)

I 'see' threat and hope as tools to move us in the direction we are supposed to go.
Lord, you provide the pricks to move is in the direction you want us to go. St Augustine
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby James S Saint » Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:52 pm

pilgrim-seeker_tom wrote:
There was absolutely zero "assumptions" involved in:


Implicit assumptions or error(s) of omission ... choose your poison. :)

I 'see' threat and hope as tools to move us in the direction we are supposed to go.
Lord, you provide the pricks to move is in the direction you want us to go. St Augustine

And why would "the Lord" be doing it, if it didn't work?

It is an irrefutable fact, no omissions, no errors.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Beautiful and Ugly

Postby pilgrim-seeker_tom » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:16 pm

And why would "the Lord" be doing it, if it didn't work?


What a delightful sense of humor! :)

If A=B and B=C than A=C

All human behavior is based upon the perception of hope and threat, PHT.




All human behavior is based upon the work(s) of "the Lord"
"Do not be influenced by the importance of the writer, and whether his learning be great or small; but let the love of pure truth draw you to read. Do not inquire, “Who said this?” but pay attention to what is said”

Thomas Kempis 1380-1471
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