A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Meno_ » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:18 pm

But then it's said , sad, that it may just be a parley -
Last edited by Meno_ on Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Magnus Anderson » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:37 pm

Making simple things complicated is not a sign of intelligence. It's a sign you've been distracted.

Objectivity means you are on top of your impulses (aerial view, being in control of impulses) rather than beneath them (tunnel vision, being controlled by impulses.)

It means you are processing your impulses rather than deflecting them (by banning them from entering your consciousness or by prematurely converting them to action.)

It means you are adjusting your map (= expectations) to fit territory (= reality) rather than adjusting territory (= reality) to fit your map (= expectations.)

It means you are seeing reality as it is (= the best way you can see it) rather than the way you want to see it (= the way it is easier for you to see it.)

Google definition that James provided isn't in contradiction to my definition.

No need for God and no need for evolution.

You just have to hold your ground and not be distracted by noise.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Meno_ » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:48 pm

-it to those simpletons who need it. Tell it to those new cynics, who demand evidence. They are too sophisticated to need more then simply , and admittedly, catchy , however true, leading suggestions.

It may be the end of history or not, however, if those very simpletons and cynics would realize what's at stake, how quickly would they need to willingly drop their thin allusions.

You are in the same unenviable position of trying to excavate that, which has been so casually dismissed as worthy of exclusion, not your fault, even though, you are trying to be fully objective about it.
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:08 am

Phyllo has a problem with a morality derived through internal senses, through exploration and utilization of one's impulses, but he has no problem with a morality that has an evolutionary basis, apparently because the second involves external senses, in the form of reading books and studying others, perhaps even dissecting them in order to extract moral code from their bodies. That's objective, he says, but the former, the more natural approach, isn't. Talk about the hatred of the body.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Meno_ » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:28 am

..
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Magnus Anderson » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:19 am

When you act, your body re-acts. It gives you feedback. Positive or negative. It says "this is good" or it says "this is bad". You then either accept this feedback and adjust accordingly or you deny it and shut yourself from reality.

You do not create the feedback you receive. It's something external to your mind. It's out of your control. You can deny it, forget it, ignore it, distort it and deform it; but you can't choose it or change it.

Often it is said that feedback is sent in the form of pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Pleasure indicating good and pain indicating bad. That's how we're told. But it's not like that. It has more to do with feelings of balance and imbalance. In this sense, both pain and pleasure are bad as both are extremes -- none is the middle way. This glorification of pleasure is no doubt plebeian in nature. People who suffer a lot are prone to such a thing.

The fact that feedback is external, rather than internal, means that our actions -- moral actions including -- have a standard against which they can be measured.

This means that the worth of our actions is not simply a matter of belief, of faith, of unconditional appraisal. It is not subjective -- not by necessity.

Only when feedback is ignored, instead of accepted, does one step into the murky waters of subjectivism.

Nihilism can be diagnosed by lack of awareness of one's internal feedback and subsequent dependence on external feedback.

God used to be the judge. Now that he's dead, he's replaced by Reason. Or Facebook.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Daniel McKay » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:52 am

James: I agree that "ought to", at least as it is used here as differentiated from hypothetical oughts, such as one ought to go to the fridge if one wants the milk, conveys no more meaning than moral because I think they mean the same thing... that's what a definition is. Much like saying that frozen water conveys no more meaning than ice, I agree, because I think that is the same thing.

To answer your questions.

A) Yes I think I would agree with that statement though I might render it standard(s) or better yet say that there is an objective way which persons ought to act regardless of their desires.
B) Depends what you mean by that. I would say that morality only applies if there is something rational (and free, and conscious) as all moral agents are rational beings. I would also say that we determine moral truth through rational, philosophical investigation. I think this is something like what you mean, but I would say that "being alive" is not the relevant thing to consider because not everything that is alive is a moral agent. Instead, we should consider what it means to be a moral agent, what it means to be a person, which is exactly the strategy I use in the chapter I have linked here.
C) I am not sure what you mean by this in this context? Do you mean in a social sense? An evolutionary one? A metaphysical one?
D) No I don't think that for a moment, I don't even think the idea makes sense.


Ultimate: Did you just claim to be something other than human or were you making a bad gay pun?
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby James S Saint » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:33 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:Making simple things complicated is not a sign of intelligence. It's a sign you've been distracted.

Objectivity means you are on top of your impulses (aerial view, being in control of impulses) rather than beneath them (tunnel vision, being controlled by impulses.)

It means you are processing your impulses rather than deflecting them (by banning them from entering your consciousness or by prematurely converting them to action.)

It means you are adjusting your map (= expectations) to fit territory (= reality) rather than adjusting territory (= reality) to fit your map (= expectations.)

It means you are seeing reality as it is (= the best way you can see it) rather than the way you want to see it (= the way it is easier for you to see it.)

Google definition that James provided isn't in contradiction to my definition.

No need for God and no need for evolution.

You just have to hold your ground and not be distracted by noise.

I think that you are confusing "being objectively unbiased" as a rational behavior with the property of a fact being "objectively true" independent of perspective or prejudice. The first means that a person is weighing all of the details, as you suggest (e.g "Should I go to college and leave my friends behind or should I ....". The second means that an assertion is true regardless of what anyone might see or believe (e.g. the Moon having a far side despite no one ever seeing it).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby phyllo » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:37 pm

Phyllo has a problem with a morality derived through internal senses, through exploration and utilization of one's impulses, but he has no problem with a morality that has an evolutionary basis, apparently because the second involves external senses, in the form of reading books and studying others, perhaps even dissecting them in order to extract moral code from their bodies.
Every internal impulse has to be considered in terms of the external world, otherwise thoughts and actions are purely self-referential and subjective.
That's objective, he says, but the former, the more natural approach, isn't. Talk about the hatred of the body.
Hatred of the body?

I have been saying all along that morality is based on human needs and desires. The majority of those are physiological - just look at the base of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_ ... y_of_needs

If I "hated the body", then I would be claiming or promoting a morality detached from physical needs.
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby surreptitious57 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:28 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:
It means you are seeing reality as it is ( = the best way you can see it ) rather than the way you want to see it ( = the way it is easier for you to see it )

I used to see reality as I wanted to but now see it as it is and so I am now as free as it is possible to be while still alive [ death is ultimate freedom ]
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:13 pm

Daniel McKay wrote:Iambigious: Yes in relation to those kinds of judgment I would agree. That is not the kind of judgment I am making here.

It might be a good thing from our own perspective that we are around today, but it isn't a good thing in any kind of moral sense. Otherwise we ought to have as many kids as we can if having more kids increases overall value.


Basically, in a world sans God, it comes down to who is saying what is a good thing regarding any particular context. If you argue that your own existence is a good thing and you are aborted then would that not be a bad thing?

Isn't that what the anti-abortion folks are arguing regarding the unborn? They merely connect the dots between "a good thing" and "morality". And then between that and "God". Or, absent God, "Reason" or "Nature"

Having or not having more kids is always situated out in a particular world historically, culturally and experientially. Value here is always calculated from a particular point of view, involving a complex existential interaction between "I" and "we".

And [sometimes] in being perceived as either "one of us" or "one of them".

It is the objectivists who, with respect to "personhood" and abortion, reduce this all down to their own particular political prejudices.

Daniel McKay wrote:Your point is essentially to ignore whether their argument is correct and instead claim that it is based on a psychological desire. That is completely fallacious. Whether or not their position is based on a psychological desire, and I don't think it is in many cases, has no bearing on whether they it is correct.


No, my point is to suggest that "correct" and "incorrect" arguments here are rooted by and large in dasein, conflicting goods and political economy. And that in order to acquire some semblance of psychological equilibrium/equanimity, it is the objectivists who will insist that only their own moral/political narrative/agenda is the correct one.

Basically, aren't you arguing that own your subjective account of "personhood" and abortion is the most rational? Just as all the objectivists who embrace a conflicting frame of mind insist that, on the contrary, it is their account that is the correct one.

What I do is to note that which all objectivists minds share in common: the belief that objective morality can in fact be ascertained. And, since they in fact already embody it, this proves it.

Thus you can well imagine how someone like me might be perceived as a threat to their peace of mind. In other words, to their self-righteous certainty regarding how the world is and how it ought to be instead.

Daniel McKay wrote:How we get people to do what is right and how we figure out what is right are very different things.


Well, that's the part that revolves around "might makes right", "right makes might" and "democracy". You can be convinced that human interactions basically revolve around survival of the fittest. If something furthers your own perceived interests, it becomes the right thing to do. Then you either have the power to make it so or you don't. Or you can be convinced there is an objective morality and, as either a theocrat or a political ideologue, you can set about creating "out in the world" that which you believe "in your head". And again you either can or you can't. Or you can be convinced that, in a world where "moral goods" ever come into conflict, it is best to construct a legal process in which these conflicts are "settled" politically through elections. And through the courts.

And then there are the hybrids like the Nietzscheans. They divide the world into the masters and the slaves. But the masters are thought to be ubermen. They attain power not bluntly through "might makes right" but as the embodiment of "right makes might". They are in sync with how the world is to be understood "naturally" and thus earn the right to exercise power over the herd.

But, again, they can either accomplish this "out in the world" [and not just "in their head"] or they can't.

Daniel McKay wrote:If there isn't much you can say against my premises or my reasoning, then I think you kind of have to agree that I am right or be the metaphorical turtle. Saying "your view is just subjective" is either irrelevant or is arguing against my premises. Make it clear which one you mean and then I will explain why you are wrong.


This is basically the argument I get from all objectivists. Unless I can demonstrate to them that I understand the analysis that they are making then there isn't anything useful I can contribute regarding the premises. But [invariably] the only time someone is really able to demonstrate that to them is to agree with both their premises and their conclusions. And until you do you are the problem.

And I always make that crucial distinction here between that which we believe to be true "in our head" and that which we can demontrate that all rational human beings are obligated to believe in turn.

Daniel McKay wrote:It is possible that the objectivists are particularly rabid here, though I have yet to see that. It is also possible that you are frustrating. Just a different possible explanation.


This however I construe as you making me the argument. But all I can do is to note how, personally, I am entangled in this...

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

...and then to ask the objectivists to note how they are not when their own value judgments come into conflict with others.

Daniel McKay wrote:Yes, the God analogy is a good one. Good point. However the difference is that if objective morality doesn't exist, then there is nothing I ought to do in any objective sense and so there is nothing wrong, as it were, with anything I do. So my trying to find objective moral truth and impose moral rules where possible is misguided but not, as it were, wrong.


Unlike God, mere mortals are not omniscient. Unlike God, mere mortals are not omnipotent. And, in that context, I always come back to this: In the absence of God all things -- all human behaviors -- can be rationalized. Up to and including genocide.

And, with respect to a moral conflagration like abortion, what does it really mean [for all practical purposes] to make a distinction between being "misguided" in your behavior and being "wrong"?

In the end, it always comes down to who either does or does not have the power to enforce a particular agenda. And the only way mere mortals can avoid this is to separate themselves entirely from others.

Then it comes down to being able to survive or not. Morality is only relevant here if you do believe in God. Sans God, you either choose [in conjunction with nature] behaviors that allow you to survive or you don't.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Meno_ » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:59 pm

What you are implying is twofold, and either way the argument fails to reach the level of a normative theory, because both views, objective and subjective has to present a thesis, before proceeding. The normative implies just that, a normal interpretation of the problem at hand.

What normal is, here, depends on definitions of normalcy, for both: the mother and the new born. What constitutes a human being, what is the normal level of pain and suffering, even if, by an admission the mother can initially be considered normal?

Lastly, can normalcy in both regards, be better be constituted by a paradigm shift, from a more 'subjective' or 'objective' criteria.

I think I can safely say that for various reasons, the foremost on my mind is your critique of non down to earth speculation.

Then on the level of typology the requirement of defining objectivity versus subjectivity places a n appearent barrier to further insight into the real meaning of abortion.

It is very well to leave them -the concepts where they are, and have a discussion about abortion based on reified concepts, but are not such ideas basically fluid and changing?

This is why there is a tendency for those seeking deep seated psychological places, to set the thesis of argument, (in this case-objective & subjective) and try to fathom the depth: as in case of the Freud/Jung approach innanalysis.

The point relevant here, is that Jung had the courage to get into the depths of the psyche by adopting the vernacular of that region of consciousness. Freud could not, he was much too conventional.

I bring this, with the idea, that hopefully no one on these boards is compelled to reject, or exclude various regions, by virtue of the quality of the vernacular. The culprit is modern communication, where absolute notions such as subjectivity and objectivity are still used within conventional rhetoric.

As a consequence, modern stream of consciousness, may still hold together, and metaphor needs to excavate meaning, from the outside, from extrinsic sources. These may very well have some connections to the reactions one's own body exhibits to them

The measurement of the divide is impossible at any rate, and that is meant to imply no negation of the divide, but only that the divide is hidden.

The Dasein, really, is hidden, and practical applications do not recover it's meaning, in specifics.
It is a general, universally constant, which involves and contains all possible pertinant action.

Covered here are all values, good and bad, where moral choice is made at the time of specific application.
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Meno_ » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:29 pm

Now, imbigious, I am not reluctant to paraphrase point by point, at the moment, and will do so, one I figure out how to do it. I got to visit apple for that.

But maybe there is a benefit in this case in that, the
Dasein has no defining particular case application, or reaction, it is the extrinsic application, or reaction to that, which is considered in a moral stance about it.

The minute we try to excavate the moral compass out of all conceivable possibility that subsists of meaning, and attach a code of ethics to it, certain
parts are excluded, we react to being as too absolute, in
we were going to have to deal with the implications of this absolute, we would fail, as I am unable to prove the conclusive moral application to it , using examples
of the here and now, as possibly down to earth as I may.
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:43 pm

jerkey wrote:The point relevant here, is that Jung had the courage to get into the depths of the psyche by adopting the vernacular of that region of consciousness.


Okay, if Jung were around today and he was confronted with a patient traumatized by an unwanted pregnancy, what "normative theory" would he bring to the sessions with her?

Or is this not pertinent to a philosophical discussion of morality?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby iambiguous » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:45 pm

jerkey wrote:Now, imbigious, I am not reluctant to paraphrase point by point, at the moment, and will do so, one I figure out how to do it. I got to visit apple for that.

But maybe there is a benefit in this case in that, the
Dasein has no defining particular case application, or reaction, it is the extrinsic application, or reaction to that, which is considered in a moral stance about it.

The minute we try to excavate the moral compass out of all conceivable possibility that subsists of meaning, and attach a code of ethics to it, certain
parts are excluded, we react to being as too absolute, in
we were going to have to deal with the implications of this absolute, we would fail, as I am unable to prove the conclusive moral application to it , using examples
of the here and now, as possibly down to earth as I may.


This is entirely too abstract to be of any interest to me. Or is that the point?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Meno_ » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:01 am

iambiguous wrote:
jerkey wrote:The point relevant here, is that Jung had the courage to get into the depths of the psyche by adopting the vernacular of that region of consciousness.


O
kay, if Jung were around today and he was confronted with a patient traumatized by an unwanted pregnancy, what "normative theory" would
he bring to the sessions with her?


Or is this not pertinent to a philosophical discussion of morality?



That it is pertinent is exemplified by using it as a particular application to the problems associated with Dasein, and objective criteria. It is pertinent, inasmuch as your concern with the moral aspects of the abortion issue.

That psychological philosophy can cover all of the philosophy of the mind is a difficult question, but there is an intersection with it, which may be an intersecting pattern related quiery, where, answers could be gathered where intersections are prevelant, generally.

This is why seek conflated dualities where the intersections are most notable, even here in the issue of the aspects.

What would think in this juggernaut of a problem?

Or rather what could an abortion clinic think in terms of thinking in the particular vernacular of a normative standard which has some bearing on the psychic relevances of the shared consciousness of the principle players.

I would need First of all wear your shoes, and approach a possible interaction between you, Jung, the clinic, the mother, with the best version of a hypothetically developed human embryo-as it relates to the status of being considered a potential human being.

That all these factors need to be placed into some kind of congruence, a congruence which fit all the pieces, may be a start.

Philosophically, it reminds me of the play, Sartre's 'No Exit' where the characters do not fit, they are obliged to stay in this place, and deal with each other.

There, is somewhat an analogy between that scenario, and the one with the jigsaw pieces involved in an abortive scenario.

The potential mother, the potential baby, the father, (if there is one), the clinic-it standards, and their stringent or lax application thereof, they are existentially tied together in a semblance of cause and effect as regards to each of their concerns, rationalizations, value systems, and self worth-identity problems so on.

They will each react differently not only to the problem at hand, that is, to abort or not, but to each others' opinions, expressions, and emotionality. They will at times obfuscate each other, trying to outdo convictions to gain the upper hand, so as o gain stature amongst each other, as far as who voice will carry the whole group.

But isn't this the way all interaction works? Here the devicive point is where psychologisms intersect with tradition/philosophy as is mundanely understood, ethics, morality, etc.

Their reactions will determine to a point and change some views, others' who have some relevance within these
, modifying the fit of their common goal: either to abort or not.

Jung would advise a common language built upon the most deeply felt level that has bearing on decision making, and realizing this, agreement on the most general level possible, where an maximum inclusion within a general concept will imply a more conscious situation.

It would be preposterous to believe that an uneducated, single mom with issues would be able to reach a consensus level, but that is the level where others involved would need to start.
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:25 am

James S Saint wrote:I think that you are confusing "being objectively unbiased" as a rational behavior with the property of a fact being "objectively true" independent of perspective or prejudice. The first means that a person is weighing all of the details, as you suggest (e.g "Should I go to college and leave my friends behind or should I ....". The second means that an assertion is true regardless of what anyone might see or believe (e.g. the Moon having a far side despite no one ever seeing it).


In Searle's terms, that would be epistemic vs ontic concept of objectivity. The first referring to a mode of judgment (e.g. apple is green because that's the best way we can perceive it), the second referring to a mode of existence (e.g. apple is green regardless of whether anyone is perceiving it or not.)

Fantasies are an example of ontic subjectivity because they only exist when there is a subject creating them in his head.

The second concept -- the ontic concept -- is irrelevant to the subject at hand.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:14 am

phyllo wrote:Every internal impulse has to be considered in terms of the external world, otherwise thoughts and actions are purely self-referential and subjective.


A mind that refuses to fully process new information -- to integrate it within its model of “how its subject should act” -- becomes self-referential. The whole intellectual process becomes less of an attempt to adapt to reality and more of an attempt to preserve, to protect, how one already acts.

Every impulse is a carrier of information regarding some aspect of the external world -- external in the sense of existing outside of that small part of the subject that does the processing. This includes information regarding movements within one's body and mind as well as information regarding movements outside of one's body and mind.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Pandora » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:04 am

iambiguous wrote:
jerkey wrote:The point relevant here, is that Jung had the courage to get into the depths of the psyche by adopting the vernacular of that region of consciousness.


Okay, if Jung were around today and he was confronted with a patient traumatized by an unwanted pregnancy, what "normative theory" would he bring to the sessions with her?

Or is this not pertinent to a philosophical discussion of morality?


Jung was against abortions.

“This is such an important issue, allow me to be clear: I would not support abortion unless it threatens the health of a pregnant woman. That’s the only exception that I can think of. This is a very serious issue. You know, we pretend to know everything, but I completely disagree. Life is still a mystery,” Jung responded. “So I will not support a woman’s choice.”

http://www.timesledger.com/stories/2016/36/jungabortpreview_2016_09_02_q.html


Because life is a mystery. :-?
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Arminius » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:08 am

James S Saint wrote:.
Everything that isn't living is dying .. or dead.

It is not dying, it is DEAD.

James S Saint wrote:
Daniel McKay wrote:I don't know. Depends what we mean by living.

If we can't settle on what being alive means, we can't settle on whether being alive is relevant to morality.

Exactly. And the definitional problems are not the terms „living (being)“ and „being alive“ but the terms „moral“ and „morality“, at least the latter terms much more than the former terms.

James S Saint wrote:
Daniel McKay wrote:What exactly do you mean by "morality"? What I mean is "The way in which persons ought to be or act where ought is understood in a universal, categorical way".

Defining morality as "how one ought to behave" is tautological. The term "ought to" conveys no more meaning than "moral" and both presume a standard. My question to you is whether you believe that;
    A) There is an objective moral standard,
    B) Moral standards are rationally founded,
    C) Moral standards are aberrantly emergent,
    D) Moral standards are passed down from "above".
I support the notion that morality is rationally founded and that foundation can be discovered via the definition of "being alive", thus morality is actually objective but not necessarily anything like what morality has always been taught to be. Perhaps the highest moral code allows or disallows different things than normally expected.

One thing that I can tell for certain is that without clear, unambiguous definitions of the terms, nothing can be resolved in discussion (e.g. "rational", "moral", "living", "ought"...).

And that is one of the real differences between human beings and all other living beings: language (meant as human language - of course). Humans can discuss, criticize, argue, comment, define, ... talk, ..., thus communicate by using the most complex language of all times.

James S Saint wrote:
Daniel McKay wrote:what do you mean humans "barely" fit into the category of moral agents? Are you suggesting that we have only just made it over the moral bar? It is certainly possible that we are the only animal to do this, though I suspect that some of the great apes may require more investigation before we can rule them out as at least persons in the same way that a child is a person.

My understanding of the highest moral code reveals that homosapian cannot actually maintain it, although he senses something close to it. This trait appears to be a function of the limit of homosapian intelligence. By "barely fitting into the category [of being a moral agent]", I am referring to the apparent fact that homosapian has a very difficult time comprehending true morality (and in fact, has never shown a precisely accurate understanding of it).

Agreed, although I have to mention that the fact that homosapian has never really acted according to the respective moral system is a bigger issue than the fact that homosapian „has never shown a precisely accurate understanding of it“. Both are not the same. You can show that you never really act according to a morality but nonetheless have a „precisely accurate understanding of it“.

Almost all human beings know that it is not good to kill; almost all human beings know that it is not good to steal; almost all human beings know that it is not good to lie; almost all human beings know that it is not good to cheat; almost all human beings know that it is not good to ...; ... and so on; ... - but almost all human beings know too that many human beings act as if they did not know it.

But what, if the fact that this major practical problem is caused by the minor theoretical problem? Then it would be a more theoretical than practical problem. But I am not sure whether this is the case or not.

What do you think? Is it more a practical than a theoretical or more a theoretical than a practical problem?

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby phyllo » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:48 am

Every impulse is a carrier of information regarding some aspect of the external world -- external in the sense of existing outside of that small part of the subject that does the processing. This includes information regarding movements within one's body and mind as well as information regarding movements outside of one's body and mind.
You managed to separate your body from 'yourself' so that you consider your body to be external from 'you'.

In fact, you also consider your mind to be external from 'you'. You did just say that, right?
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Crimson Crow » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:03 am

Magnus Anderson wrote:When you act, your body re-acts. It gives you feedback. Positive or negative. It says "this is good" or it says "this is bad". You then either accept this feedback and adjust accordingly or you deny it and shut yourself from reality.

You do not create the feedback you receive. It's something external to your mind. It's out of your control. You can deny it, forget it, ignore it, distort it and deform it; but you can't choose it or change it.

Often it is said that feedback is sent in the form of pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Pleasure indicating good and pain indicating bad. That's how we're told. But it's not like that. It has more to do with feelings of balance and imbalance. In this sense, both pain and pleasure are bad as both are extremes -- none is the middle way. This glorification of pleasure is no doubt plebeian in nature. People who suffer a lot are prone to such a thing.

The fact that feedback is external, rather than internal, means that our actions -- moral actions including -- have a standard against which they can be measured.

This means that the worth of our actions is not simply a matter of belief, of faith, of unconditional appraisal. It is not subjective -- not by necessity.

Only when feedback is ignored, instead of accepted, does one step into the murky waters of subjectivism.

Nihilism can be diagnosed by lack of awareness of one's internal feedback and subsequent dependence on external feedback.

God used to be the judge. Now that he's dead, he's replaced by Reason. Or Facebook.


So all actions which cause a (sufficient) pain or pleasure response are bad while all actions that give off leveled or controlled feelings are good...? Former weakens, latter strengthens...?

From this, one re-arranges one's actions and develops a personal idea of morality? Well, one big problem is that, circumstances or conditions always change, particularly with something as sensitive as the body... Basically, feedback for X can differ in short time spans . . . So, one can't justify one's actions for any reliable span of time, certainly not enough to cement it in abstraction (and so, it ultimately becomes like "Reason"). What weakens one today, strengthens one tomorrow. Also, responses are very diverse in quality (some are strange and indescribable), categorizing as pain/pleasure is too narrow . . . and so?

Mind is simply more flexible and can endure the "bad" (as defined above), and affirm it (without distortion) & postpone, that is, it can be above feedback, and even if it fails to do so, in many cases, weakening opens new possibilities of becoming stronger (since chaos can broaden and create). The mind's rage can and does change the body. After the storm - this is evident.
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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:27 pm

phyllo wrote:You managed to separate your body from 'yourself' so that you consider your body to be external from 'you'.

In fact, you also consider your mind to be external from 'you'. You did just say that, right?


Exactly. Both my mind (sans "me") and my body are external to "me". This "me" referring to that small part of our brains that we designate by the word "will".

There are many more concepts than there are words. This is why word-to-concept relation is not one-to-one but one-to-many (or rather, many-to-many.)
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:50 pm

Crimson Crow wrote:So all actions which cause a (sufficient) pain or pleasure response are bad while all actions that give off leveled or controlled feelings are good...? Former weakens, latter strengthens...?


Yes.

From this, one re-arranges one's actions and develops a personal idea of morality? Well, one big problem is that, circumstances or conditions always change, particularly with something as sensitive as the body... Basically, feedback for X can differ in short time spans . . . So, one can't justify one's actions for any reliable span of time, certainly not enough to cement it in abstraction (and so, it ultimately becomes like "Reason"). What weakens one today, strengthens one tomorrow. Also, responses are very diverse in quality (some are strange and indescribable), categorizing as pain/pleasure is too narrow . . . and so?


Feedback only applies to actions, it does not apply to their absence. Thus, in unpredictable situations, the solution is to cease to act until you figure out how to act.

There is a difference between one's own actions and those of the external world. Feedback applies to the former, not to the latter (the way spoiled people think.) When you cease to act, you are at the mercy of the external world, but the important thing is that you are not going against your internal feedback -- you are not self-destructive.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: A new normative theory and a PhD thesis

Postby iambiguous » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:16 pm

jerkey wrote:
iambiguous wrote:
jerkey wrote:The point relevant here, is that Jung had the courage to get into the depths of the psyche by adopting the vernacular of that region of consciousness.


O
kay, if Jung were around today and he was confronted with a patient traumatized by an unwanted pregnancy, what "normative theory" would
he bring to the sessions with her?


Or is this not pertinent to a philosophical discussion of morality?



That it is pertinent is exemplified by using it as a particular application to the problems associated with Dasein, and objective criteria. It is pertinent, inasmuch as your concern with the moral aspects of the abortion issue.

That psychological philosophy can cover all of the philosophy of the mind is a difficult question, but there is an intersection with it, which may be an intersecting pattern related quiery, where, answers could be gathered where intersections are prevelant, generally.

This is why seek conflated dualities where the intersections are most notable, even here in the issue of the aspects.

What would think in this juggernaut of a problem?

Or rather what could an abortion clinic think in terms of thinking in the particular vernacular of a normative standard which has some bearing on the psychic relevances of the shared consciousness of the principle players.

I would need First of all wear your shoes, and approach a possible interaction between you, Jung, the clinic, the mother, with the best version of a hypothetically developed human embryo-as it relates to the status of being considered a potential human being.

That all these factors need to be placed into some kind of congruence, a congruence which fit all the pieces, may be a start.

Philosophically, it reminds me of the play, Sartre's 'No Exit' where the characters do not fit, they are obliged to stay in this place, and deal with each other.

There, is somewhat an analogy between that scenario, and the one with the jigsaw pieces involved in an abortive scenario.

The potential mother, the potential baby, the father, (if there is one), the clinic-it standards, and their stringent or lax application thereof, they are existentially tied together in a semblance of cause and effect as regards to each of their concerns, rationalizations, value systems, and self worth-identity problems so on.

They will each react differently not only to the problem at hand, that is, to abort or not, but to each others' opinions, expressions, and emotionality. They will at times obfuscate each other, trying to outdo convictions to gain the upper hand, so as o gain stature amongst each other, as far as who voice will carry the whole group.

But isn't this the way all interaction works? Here the devicive point is where psychologisms intersect with tradition/philosophy as is mundanely understood, ethics, morality, etc.

Their reactions will determine to a point and change some views, others' who have some relevance within these
, modifying the fit of their common goal: either to abort or not.

Jung would advise a common language built upon the most deeply felt level that has bearing on decision making, and realizing this, agreement on the most general level possible, where an maximum inclusion within a general concept will imply a more conscious situation.

It would be preposterous to believe that an uneducated, single mom with issues would be able to reach a consensus level, but that is the level where others involved would need to start.


Sure, as an "analysis", I can go along with this.

You note all of the various factors [psychological or otherwise] that need to be taken into account before something in the way of a "consensus" or a "congruence" can emerge.

I merely intertwine this in the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein, conflicting goods and political economy.

But I'm still not really able to grasp what your own value judgment is here with respect to abortion. And the extent to which you either are or are not entangled in this:

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values "I" can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction...or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then "I" begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

Again, I believe that aborting the unborn is the killing of innocent human beings. And I believe that women [and women alone] should have the political right to do so.

And then when some ask me how I can reconcile this, I tell them that I can't. That it can't be reconciled in a Godless universe.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382
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