Page 1 of 1

A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:15 am
by Prismatic567
Phyllo wrote:How can anybody who claims an external mind-independent reality be a solipsist?


Note you and the Philosophical Realists claim the following;

wiki wrote:
1. Realism (in philosophy) about a given object is the view that this object exists in reality independently of our conceptual scheme.

2. Realists tend to believe that whatever we believe now is only an approximation of reality but that the accuracy and fullness of understanding can be improved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism



From the above;

    a. You believe there is a 'real' external reality, but note you are only believing based on your experience and perception, which is not 'what is' or 'the perceived'

    b. What you are experiencing and believing is only an approximation of that external reality. [2 above].

    c. So there is a GAP between what is your supposed to be external reality and your perception and sense data.

    d. I call this the Reality GAP.

    e. Because of this reality Gap, you are in fact not realizing and actualizing what is your supposed externality reality. What you have is merely an approximation of THAT reality.

    f. In this sense the only reality you will ever have is ONLY in your mind which is forever and eternally will be an approximation of THAT reality.

    g. So ultimately what is real to you is only you and your mind.

    h. That is what is 'solipsism' as defined, i.e. -the view or theory that the self [and his mind] is all that can be known to exist.
    QED

The above is not my original idea, I adapted that from Kant who presented the proof in great details.
Show me where I am wrong in the above?
(If you can, you will be a better philosopher than Kant.)

So,
A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist.

Agree/Disagree.

Re: A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:18 pm
by phyllo
I'm drawing a map of reality in my mind ... actually many, many maps.

This map will always fall short in terms of matching up with reality. At times it will be very close and at other times very far off.

I never have the illusion that what I draw is real. (Except in the sense that a physical map is a physical object in the universe ... similarly my thoughts are a physical configuration of atoms in my brain within a psychical universe.)

My maps are not the only things which exist.

What I draw on a map does not change what is being represented by the map. The external reality does not change no matter what I draw.

Re: A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:43 pm
by James S Saint
Prismatic567 wrote:
    a. You believe there is a 'real' external reality, but note you are only believing based on your experience and perception, which is not 'what is' or 'the perceived' <<-- perception and logic. What is perceived need only be approximate, not exact.

    b. What you are experiencing and believing is only an approximation of that external reality. [2 above]. <<-- that is not news to anyone.

    c. So there is a GAP between what is your supposed to be external reality and your perception and sense data.<<-- that is not news to anyone.

    d. I call this the Reality GAP. <<-- call it whatever you like. At least you have acknowledged that there actually is a Reality out there to approximate.

    e. Because of this reality Gap, you are in fact not realizing and actualizing what is your supposed externality reality. What you have is merely an approximation of THAT reality.<<-- again that is not news to anyone.

    f. In this sense the only reality you will ever have is ONLY in your mind which is forever and eternally will be an approximation of THAT reality. <<-- THERE is your BIG mistake. A person doesn't "have reality in their head". That is a dumb misuse of the language. A person only "has" a perception or approximate map of reality in their head. And they know that.

    g. So ultimately what is real to you is only you and your mind. <<-- No. What is real is what the map is being constantly corrected to reflect as close as possible. If what was in my head was all there was, I would have no means to correct anything that I already thought ... much like you it seems. YOU appear to believe only what is already in your head and accept no evidence from outside that your map is wrong. That is called being blind, stubborn, arrogant, and more than a little narcissistic.

    h. That is what is 'solipsism' as defined, i.e. -the view or theory that the self [and his mind] is all that can be known to exist. <<-- Erroneous conclusion due to your error in g
    QED

Show me where I am wrong in the above? <<-- Done.
(If you can, you will be a better philosopher than Kant.) <<-- You wouldn't know either way.

A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist. <<-- Only to the naive and ignorant. But don't feel alone. Many people are inexperienced in being actually philosophical.


Re: A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:25 am
by Prismatic567
phyllo wrote:I'm drawing a map of reality in my mind ... actually many, many maps.

This map will always fall short in terms of matching up with reality. At times it will be very close and at other times very far off.

    Say, you saw - from a far distance - an oasis in a desert and you draw a map of that oasis.
    Then you show to every one you know and the whole world that map of the oasis you have drawn.
    However upon actual verification, the oasis you drew was actually a mirage.
    Thus there was no real oasis at all, it was only an illusion in this case.

You stated 'I'm drawing a map of reality in my mind ..."
How do you know you are drawing a map of that real reality and not an illusion-of-reality in another sense.
Note you may draw a picture [map] of the table out there, but as Bertrand Russell highlighted, deep philosophical reflections revealed, there could no real table at all!

The fact is there is no independent reality out there for you to draw upon.
The reality that you are drawing as a map is a mind interdependent reality.


I never have the illusion that what I draw is real. (Except in the sense that a physical map is a physical object in the universe ... similarly my thoughts are a physical configuration of atoms in my brain within a psychical universe.)

My maps are not the only things which exist.

That realness of 'what' you are drawing is always dependent on a collective human Framework and System.
There is no absolute and independent reality out there for you to draw.

What I draw on a map does not change what is being represented by the map. The external reality does not change no matter what I draw.
Note Heraclitus, change is the only constant.
There is no permanent reality existing out there for you to draw, the external reality is mind interdependent and is always changing.

A realist who claims there is a reality permanently out there independent of mind is a solipsist.
To a realist, what is reality is confined to what is happening in his/her mind. The supposed real reality out there [illusory] and separated from the self is never ever realized.

Re: A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:39 am
by Prismatic567
James S Saint wrote:
Prismatic567 wrote:
    a. You believe there is a 'real' external reality, but note you are only believing based on your experience and perception, which is not 'what is' or 'the perceived' <<-- perception and logic. What is perceived need only be approximate, not exact.

    b. What you are experiencing and believing is only an approximation of that external reality. [2 above]. <<-- that is not news to anyone.

    c. So there is a GAP between what is your supposed to be external reality and your perception and sense data.<<-- that is not news to anyone.

    d. I call this the Reality GAP. <<-- call it whatever you like. At least you have acknowledged that there actually is a Reality out there to approximate.

    e. Because of this reality Gap, you are in fact not realizing and actualizing what is your supposed externality reality. What you have is merely an approximation of THAT reality.<<-- again that is not news to anyone.

    f. In this sense the only reality you will ever have is ONLY in your mind which is forever and eternally will be an approximation of THAT reality. <<-- THERE is your BIG mistake. A person doesn't "have reality in their head". That is a dumb misuse of the language. A person only "has" a perception or approximate map of reality in their head. And they know that.

    g. So ultimately what is real to you is only you and your mind. <<-- No. What is real is what the map is being constantly corrected to reflect as close as possible. If what was in my head was all there was, I would have no means to correct anything that I already thought ... much like you it seems. YOU appear to believe only what is already in your head and accept no evidence from outside that your map is wrong. That is called being blind, stubborn, arrogant, and more than a little narcissistic.

    h. That is what is 'solipsism' as defined, i.e. -the view or theory that the self [and his mind] is all that can be known to exist. <<-- Erroneous conclusion due to your error in g
    QED

Show me where I am wrong in the above? <<-- Done.
(If you can, you will be a better philosopher than Kant.) <<-- You wouldn't know either way.

A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist. <<-- Only to the naive and ignorant. But don't feel alone. Many people are inexperienced in being actually philosophical.

Note my response to Phyllo above.


d. I call this the Reality GAP. <<-- call it whatever you like. At least you have acknowledged that there actually is a Reality out there to approximate.
You misunderstood my point.

I have never acknowledged there is a Reality out there to be approximated.

I was referring to the Philosophical Realist who claimed [falsely] there is an independent Reality out there to be approximated.
Based on such a claim of independence, thus there would be a Reality GAP between what is cognized with mind and what is the untouchable Real out there.
If what is supposed real and there is no way one can ever realized it, then what is left is the only reality that is being actualized is the one in the realist's brain/mind.
Therefore a Philosophical Realist is a solipsist.

That Reality GAP is the hole in the Philosophical Realist theory which is not realistic nor tenable.

OTOH, the Philosophical Anti-Realist [Kantian] do not accept there is an independent reality out there to be correspond with [drawn with the mind].
What the Philosophical Anti-Realist [Kantian] realized and actualized is the self engages and entangles with an emergent reality interdependent with other selves. Thus the Philosophical Anti-Realist [Kantian] is not a solipsist because s/he engages and interacts with other minds within an emergent reality.

Re: A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:21 pm
by phyllo
I have never acknowledged there is a Reality out there to be approximated.

What the Philosophical Anti-Realist [Kantian] realized and actualized is the self engages and entangles with an emergent reality interdependent with other selves. Thus the Philosophical Anti-Realist [Kantian] is not a solipsist because s/he engages and interacts with other minds within an emergent reality.
Where are these "other minds"?

Either they are outside of your mind or they are inside your mind. What other choice is there?

If there is no "reality out there to be approximated" then the "other minds" can't be there.

Re: A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:30 am
by Prismatic567
phyllo wrote:
I have never acknowledged there is a Reality out there to be approximated.

What the Philosophical Anti-Realist [Kantian] realized and actualized is the self engages and entangles with an emergent reality interdependent with other selves. Thus the Philosophical Anti-Realist [Kantian] is not a solipsist because s/he engages and interacts with other minds within an emergent reality.
Where are these "other minds"?

Either they are outside of your mind or they are inside your mind. What other choice is there?

If there is no "reality out there to be approximated" then the "other minds" can't be there.
You started with the 'obvious' habituated state/paradigm of "outside" which will automatically generate a negative 'inside.' If you are stuck here then it is either 'outside' if not then 'inside'.

I am an empirical realist [Kantian] thus have an outer sense of "other minds" and this can be empirically proven but then I have another higher perspective that all minds are interdependent with each other and with an interdependent reality [not an independent reality].

As a transcendental realist, reality is external and independent of your mind and thus there is no way you are interacting with reality as real. Everything you ever realize, actualize and know of reality is grounded within your mind, thus a solipsist.

Re: A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:50 pm
by phyllo
You started with the 'obvious' habituated state/paradigm of "outside" which will automatically generate a negative 'inside.' If you are stuck here then it is either 'outside' if not then 'inside'.
That's how duality works.
I am an empirical realist [Kantian] thus have an outer sense of "other minds" and this can be empirically proven but then I have another higher perspective that all minds are interdependent with each other and with an interdependent reality [not an independent reality].
So you have a sense of "other minds" in your head.

Does a solipsist say anything different?

Re: A Realist [Philosophical] is a Solipsist.

PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:17 am
by Prismatic567
phyllo wrote:
You started with the 'obvious' habituated state/paradigm of "outside" which will automatically generate a negative 'inside.' If you are stuck here then it is either 'outside' if not then 'inside'.
That's how duality works.
I am an empirical realist [Kantian] thus have an outer sense of "other minds" and this can be empirically proven but then I have another higher perspective that all minds are interdependent with each other and with an interdependent reality [not an independent reality].
So you have a sense of "other minds" in your head.

Does a solipsist say anything different?
I believe the word "in" my head.
I think you have missed my point.
There are two levels of consideration, i.e.

I am an empirical realist [Kantian] thus
    1. have an outer sense of "other minds" and this can be empirically proven but then
    2. I have another higher perspective that all minds are interdependent with each other and with an interdependent reality [not an independent reality].

Note research has shown that the normal human being is programmed with ability to sense the 'other minds.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind
Obviously this program is done all in the head.
But the normal human being also has other faculties to understand the 'other minds' reside in a body that is external to oneself.

However note from another perspective I have a philosophical awareness and realization,
all minds [whilst external in one sense] are interdependent with each other.

Btw, personally I do not agree with the concept of solipsism.
But if you insist and define solipsism in the way you do, then as a philosophical realist you are a solipsist by your own definition.