The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of God

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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:47 am

It depends on the extent to which God interferes with evolution. God chooses the greater good - to let humans come into existence through evolution which brings suffering. And let’s not forget the existence of those yet to come through evolution.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:08 am

JohnJBannan wrote:It depends on the extent to which God interferes with evolution. God chooses the greater good - to let humans come into existence through evolution which brings suffering. And let’s not forget the existence of those yet to come through evolution.


Interesting (I’m being sarcastic somewhat)

So god (who created evolution never interferes with it!?!?!)

God interfered with ALL of evolution based on the standard definition of god, that god knew everything that was subsequently going to happen after creation!!

Why would god (omnibenevolent and by default, omnipotent) create a consent violating reality for anyone?

In hyper-dimensional mirror realities, you can explore consent violation ON YOUR OWN TERMS!!! You’d still eventually learn everything over infinite time, just on your terms, not on the dictators terms.

I often tell people that what they do to god is a projection of what they’d want others to do for them if they were god!

Punishing your creations. Being the grand dictator. Bowing. Praying. Worshiping. Building monuments (churches, temples, synagogues). The manner in which you conceive god says all about you!
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:18 am

God’s power to create is uncaused. God’s power to create is in harmony with everythingness. God’s power to create uses particular building blocks, such as atoms. Atoms do not care about suffering. God uses atoms to create evolution which causes suffering. But, don’t blame God. Blame evolution and atoms. God chooses the greater good to allow us to exist than to not exist. Plus, everythingness itself has certain characteristics where the simple greatly outnumbers the complex because the simple is more multitudinous than the complex in everythingness. There are certain uncaused aspects of creation that only allow God to create in certain ways.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Meno_ » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:41 am

JohnJBannan wrote:God’s power to create is uncaused. God’s power to create is in harmony with everythingness. God’s power to create uses particular building blocks, such as atoms. Atoms do not care about suffering. God uses atoms to create evolution which causes suffering. But, don’t blame God. Blame evolution and atoms. God chooses the greater good to allow us to exist than to not exist. Plus, everythingness itself has certain characteristics where the simple greatly outnumbers the complex because the simple is more multitudinous than the complex in everythingness. There are certain uncaused aspects of creation that only allow God to create in certain ways.




Ok I can't stAnd the excitement:
We are God.
We are within the highest agents provocateur behind this god conspiracy, so far at least here and now, we are the primal motive behind CreAtion.

So all Your arguments and those of yesteryear are right on the money.

Even the worst of us, but we can not realize it in the here and now. Because all we think about is time, and what's next on the agenda , and just can't wait to get THERE.

I just got there , wanted to leave first, but beat me to it.

Now I am no longer her
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:49 am

Sounds like you’re talking about some sort of universal consciousness?
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Meno_ » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:02 am

JohnJBannan wrote:Sounds like you’re talking about some sort of universal consciousness?




Yes a kind of transcendental pantheism
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:05 am

JohnJBannan wrote:God’s power to create is uncaused. God’s power to create is in harmony with everythingness. God’s power to create uses particular building blocks, such as atoms. Atoms do not care about suffering. God uses atoms to create evolution which causes suffering. But, don’t blame God. Blame evolution and atoms. God chooses the greater good to allow us to exist than to not exist. Plus, everythingness itself has certain characteristics where the simple greatly outnumbers the complex because the simple is more multitudinous than the complex in everythingness. There are certain uncaused aspects of creation that only allow God to create in certain ways.


John,

I’m going to be blunt with you.

Atoms suffer. Atoms feel joy.

The doors of perception haven’t been opened to you yet. If god were real, that would be gods fault and not anyone elses.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:12 am

Sounds like you are also proposing universal consciousness?

So, where was this universal consciousness before life existed? And where was it before the Big Bang?
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:32 am

JohnJBannan wrote:Sounds like you are also proposing universal consciousness?

So, where was this universal consciousness before life existed? And where was it before the Big Bang?


Existence has never not existed. God or not. That’s an easy proof to make. It’s necessary as a proof, to that necessity, god is merely a contingency.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Meno_ » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:42 am

I was very brief . would like to elaborate.

I have a blog going in a different forum in psychology that explains it more on detail of the notion that perhaps may shed more light.
Just read a very enlightening book by Brown Weiss , at once brilliant and sedating.

It's title is 'Many Lives, Many Masters.
At first it seemed like a work in irony, but afterwards it not only made sense, but had a very sobering effect.

The idea of reincarnation through hypnotic regression, reveals a patient suffering from various fears and obsessions, being able, to reveal an undercurrent of multiple lifetimes.
All of the life times show various upward manifestations of the evolving differ in human beings , all essentially appearing as differing bodies.

This idea matches and reflects the Buddhic idea of reincarnation , and the more recent trans-humanistic progression are similar, as well.

The idea being is that the western phenomenal philosophy is reflected in the vastly earlier nominal ideas in the Vedas.

The idea that each individual person possesses individuality, although merely based on an ontological semantic analysis, signals an up and coming closure with the current signs. They are never formally 'identical' but is based on more objective criteria formed out of the mirror effect.
In other words we as individuals can never see ourselves completely, because our image of our self is a composite of other's impression .

Evolution plays a part , where Nature develops more receptive neurological systems producing lessening sodferentiability between the image and the concept of the self.

Higher evolution toward succeeding elevation of levels , ultimately lead to the approach toward increasing closeness the levels approaching the absolute.

This absolute is not ever an ideal set of unity , but contain several sets getfing closer to each other through identifiable members of variety of differing sets .

The Quasi simulated sets implement such evolution and become part of the evolving 'natural
schema. At some point, they also become undifferentiable, and set again in an upward pro-position.

This idea appears to augment the cosmological arguments for God, rather then detracting from them.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:50 am

Physical reality has not always existed. Physical reality was created. God is not a contingency. God is an uncaused creator of physical reality. Read #4 and #5. Time and natural causation had to begin. That which caused their beginning cannot be subject to time or natural causation. That leaves out every form of natural explanation because all such explanations are subject to time and natural causation. The best explanation remaining is an uncaused metaphysical cause of physical reality we call God.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:18 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:Physical reality has not always existed. Physical reality was created. God is not a contingency. God is an uncaused creator of physical reality. Read #4 and #5. Time and natural causation had to begin. That which caused their beginning cannot be subject to time or natural causation. That leaves out every form of natural explanation because all such explanations are subject to time and natural causation. The best explanation remaining is an uncaused metaphysical cause of physical reality we call God.


Well John...

Actually what happens is this:

The non existence of non existence is existence; the existence of existence is existence. The existence of non existence is impossible (if it exists, it can’t be non existence!). The non existence of existence, if it ever occurs, past, present or future means that we couldn’t possibly be here right now, for us, here right now is merely a subset, we can prove that the non existence of existence never did occur, nor will it ever occur.

A single being cannot be omniscient, omnipresent or omnipotent - for one, infinity never ends; we can get into the real proofs other than this later if you press me on this topic. Think about it this way though... how do you hold EVERY counting number in your head all at once? They don’t end!

This gets to my next point. Our temporal reality is an error message of existence trying to be itself... infinite! When it tries to be itself (infinite); this is impossible, so what happens is the error message produces everything we know or see or can know or see. That’s why time exists.

I’m just making scribbled notes here. If you keep pressing me, I’ll teach you everything that I know about this.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:12 pm

No surprise, I don’t agree with anything you said.

Absolute nothingness can be understood as the absence of God and any physical reality God made. Sure, it’s not a typical state of existence, but it is an understandable uncaused metaphysical hypothetical. It’s not a subset, but one side of a dichotomy where both sides are uncaused. Absolute nothingness can never become the case, because the other side being the case can never be destroyed because it’s uncaused. An uncaused thing cannot be made of parts else those parts would cause it. Without parts, it cannot be destroyed because destruction is the disassociation of parts.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:44 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:No surprise, I don’t agree with anything you said.

Absolute nothingness can be understood as the absence of God and any physical reality God made. Sure, it’s not a typical state of existence, but it is an understandable uncaused metaphysical hypothetical. It’s not a subset, but one side of a dichotomy where both sides are uncaused. Absolute nothingness can never become the case, because the other side being the case can never be destroyed because it’s uncaused. An uncaused thing cannot be made of parts else those parts would cause it. Without parts, it cannot be destroyed because destruction is the disassociation of parts.


Well... if you don’t agree with ANYTHING that I said, that’s the end of this discussion!

The non existence of non existence HAS to be existence.

The existence of existence HAS to be existence.

If you cannot use basic logic on a truth table, we can’t discuss that further. I was hoping you’d discuss it further.

Let me offer you this: existence requires otherness in order to be or to be abstracted by any possible being.

Let’s work with omniscience for a moment:

1.) If you know every reason why everything occurs and all of those reasons are outside of you, then there is no “you” to abstract ... which is non being (lack of otherness)

2.) if you know every reason why everything occurs and all of those reasons are internal, then you know no reason why anything is outside of you (again, lack of otherness) - which is non-being!

What this all means is that Omni-states are impossible!

If a being knows some things and not others, it doesn’t have an omni-state!
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:50 pm

Not something is only that - not something. Non-existence of existence or not something has nothing to do with absolute nothingness. Absolute nothingness is not constrained by the concept of somethingess in physical reality. You're mixing apples with oranges. It is not a logic violation, but a fundamental misunderstanding between absolute nothingness and physical reality. Absolute nothingness is not at all related to physical reality. Like I said, absolute nothingness is the state of existence where God is not real (from the perspective of the theist).

God is not made of parts and not subject to time. There is no external and internal to God. God is not in a PLACE. God is uncaused with an uncaused power to create physical reality. God is mysterious, but God does not have a mind that operates in time.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:42 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:Not something is only that - not something. Non-existence of existence or not something has nothing to do with absolute nothingness. Absolute nothingness is not constrained by the concept of somethingess in physical reality. You're mixing apples with oranges. It is not a logic violation, but a fundamental misunderstanding between absolute nothingness and physical reality. Absolute nothingness is not at all related to physical reality. Like I said, absolute nothingness is the state of existence where God is not real (from the perspective of the theist).

God is not made of parts and not subject to time. There is no external and internal to God. God is not in a PLACE. God is uncaused with an uncaused power to create physical reality. God is mysterious, but God does not have a mind that operates in time.



“There is no external and internal to god?”

Every being that can possibly exist has an external and internal.

Let me show you what you’re doing with language...

“JohnJBannan, who replies to my posts exists in no way”

Do you understand that what you can say and the actual don’t always occur?

How about this sentence?

“We’re all in heaven”

I can go on and on with sentences like these...

Just because you can combine words... doesn’t make it true!
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:01 pm

God is uncaused. This means God does not have parts else He would be made of those parts. A thing without parts cannot have an internal and external. Those qualities require parts. In its most simple composite, it would require an inside and outside, which are parts. Read #8. God not being made of parts does not have even an inside and outside. Reality consists of the uncaused God and any physical reality God causes and sustains in existence.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:07 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:God is uncaused. This means God does not have parts else He would be made of those parts. A thing without parts cannot have an internal and external. Those qualities require parts. In its most simple composite, it would require an inside and outside, which are parts. Read #8. God not being made of parts does not have even an inside and outside.


If I was a SMART theist!!! I’d tell you that god is nominal (has a name and position), but you deny this about god! I’m going to be straightforward to you...

You are insane!

Otherness is required of all beings!

You’re arrogance that god is and is not otherness is the worst “thought crime” I can imagine.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:24 pm

You have to follow the logic of the cosmological arguments. Sure, God is mysterious. But, real nonetheless. It's not insanity to believe in God. It's accepting the truth the logic of the cosmological arguments prove to you. You really ought to read #12. Understand that something has to be UNCAUSED. So, what is uncaused? I can knock out infinite regress, so that leaves God as the best explanation.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:32 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:You have to follow the logic of the cosmological arguments. Sure, God is mysterious. But, real nonetheless. It's not insanity to believe in God. It's accepting the truth the logic of the cosmological arguments prove to you. You really ought to read #12. Understand that something has to be UNCAUSED. So, what is uncaused? I can knock out infinite regress, so that leaves God as the best explanation.


This is a merely semantic argument; “god creates, so what created god?”

From your perspective, “ god is uncaused”

So what caused or uncaused the uncaused?
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:44 pm

It’s not semantics. Read #12. Something has got to be uncaused, or we wouldn’t be here but there would be nothing. The only question left is what is uncaused?
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:54 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:It’s not semantics. Read #12. Something has got to be uncaused, or we wouldn’t be here but there would be nothing. The only question left is what is uncaused?


Easy. !!! Platonic forms are uncaused. Otherwise known as “eternal forms”

God did not create a triangle. Triangles have always existed ! God or no god, triangles have always existed. Beyond space and time.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:12 am

A triangle is an idea. An idea only resides in a mind. Where’s the uncaused mind containing the triangle idea?
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:30 am

JohnJBannan wrote:A triangle is an idea. An idea only resides in a mind. Where’s the uncaused mind containing the triangle idea?


Does the triangle have a mind? The triangle transcends god. God will never be greater than a point, a line or a triangle. The idea that you think an intelligent being is greater than this is absurd.
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Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:36 am

A triangle is an idea. Where do ideas reside? In minds.
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