The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of God

This is the main board for discussing philosophy - formal, informal and in between.

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:34 pm

Ecmandu wrote:John,

You really don’t understand the most basic logic in all of existence!

If there is not internal and/or external, the object/being is non existent. That’s the definition of something that doesn’t exist (no otherness). I’m not even talking physical here, simply spiritual.

It’s ironic that the most basic logic in all of existence is rejected by someone presumably trying to use logic.

Thing is... you abandoned logic when the discussion got real for you!


“Existence” is only a word. God is real without otherness.
JohnJBannan
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:51 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:John,

You really don’t understand the most basic logic in all of existence!

If there is not internal and/or external, the object/being is non existent. That’s the definition of something that doesn’t exist (no otherness). I’m not even talking physical here, simply spiritual.

It’s ironic that the most basic logic in all of existence is rejected by someone presumably trying to use logic.

Thing is... you abandoned logic when the discussion got real for you!


“Existence” is only a word. God is real without otherness.


Yeah, like I said. You abandoned logic when this started getting real for you.

You assert that god exists, but that exists doesn’t exist.

What the fuck have you even been reduced to saying here? Existence doesn’t exist!?!?! Really man?!?! And that’s your only defense of god ?!?!
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10810
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:32 pm

Ecmandu,

The word “existence” generally means physical reality. It is circular reasoning to say only physical reality is true existence. I am not getting stuck in definitional circular logic traps.
JohnJBannan
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:45 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:Ecmandu,

The word “existence” generally means physical reality. It is circular reasoning to say only physical reality is true existence. I am not getting stuck in definitional circular logic traps.


Really?!?! You say god exists! That means spiritual reality as well!
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10810
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:47 am

Ecmandu wrote:
JohnJBannan wrote:Ecmandu,

The word “existence” generally means physical reality. It is circular reasoning to say only physical reality is true existence. I am not getting stuck in definitional circular logic traps.


Really?!?! You say god exists! That means spiritual reality as well!


Not all reality is physical reality requiring otherness.
JohnJBannan
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:51 am

JohnJBannan wrote:
Ecmandu wrote:
JohnJBannan wrote:Ecmandu,

The word “existence” generally means physical reality. It is circular reasoning to say only physical reality is true existence. I am not getting stuck in definitional circular logic traps.


Really?!?! You say god exists! That means spiritual reality as well!


Not all reality is physical reality.


Spirits are otherness. They have distinct form. Distinct form is how physical reality is defined. Otherness is always distinct form. Distinct form is always otherness. You use the word “god”. That’s distinct form. God is other than all other beings are or will ever be in existence according to you. That makes god physical reality ... an otherness.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10810
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:09 am

Ecmandu,

Spirits are created. God is uncaused. You cannot compare an uncaused being to caused beings. God is not a form.
JohnJBannan
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:23 am

JohnJBannan wrote:Ecmandu,

Spirits are created. God is uncaused. You cannot compare an uncaused being to caused beings. God is not a form.


My point exactly! If god is not a form, then you can’t make an argument for god.

Me, who believes god is not a form, has a great argument against god!
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10810
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:46 am

Me, who believes god is not a form, has a great argument against god!


And what, pray tell, is this argument?
Q: What lies beyond the "Matrix" that is consciousness?

A: The conscious and unconscious mind of God.


Image

Jay Marcus Brewer
Austin, Texas
Email: [email protected]
User avatar
phenomenal_graffiti
Thinker
 
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:08 pm
Location: Texas

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:10 am

phenomenal_graffiti wrote:
Me, who believes god is not a form, has a great argument against god!


And what, pray tell, is this argument?


Umm... that god doesn’t have any form!
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10810
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:39 am

Ecmandu,

The argument for God is necessity albeit formless.
JohnJBannan
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby phenomenal_graffiti » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:21 am

And what, pray tell, is this argument?



Umm... that god doesn’t have any form!


So your "good argument" against "god" is merely your idea that "god" doesn't have a form? There are lots of things that exist that don't have any form: any liquid, for example. Albeit everything that exists, to us, is made out of our consciousness (re: our experience of them).
Q: What lies beyond the "Matrix" that is consciousness?

A: The conscious and unconscious mind of God.


Image

Jay Marcus Brewer
Austin, Texas
Email: [email protected]
User avatar
phenomenal_graffiti
Thinker
 
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:08 pm
Location: Texas

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:54 pm

phenomenal_graffiti wrote:
And what, pray tell, is this argument?



Umm... that god doesn’t have any form!


So your "good argument" against "god" is merely your idea that "god" doesn't have a form? There are lots of things that exist that don't have any form: any liquid, for example. Albeit everything that exists, to us, is made out of our consciousness (re: our experience of them).


Everything has a form, even a structure. Mountains move just like water except slower. Your computer moves like water too, just slower ... are you going to say your computer has no form ... that it’s just an illusion? Structure. Water is H2O.

No. What John is trying to say is that god has no internal and/or external. That’s the definition of a non-existent. I put him in a corner he can’t get out of and so he states something so absurd as to state “well god exists without otherness (form) - god doesn’t need an internal and/or external to exist, but then again, John also in his defense of god argument states that existence doesn’t exist.

I know with 100% certainty that existence exists and it is defined by otherness for all possible beings and that no being can destroy that truth. God cannot destroy otherness. God relies on it, necessarily to exist and because god is dependent on otherness, not the other way around, god does not have the power to destroy gods master... otherness. God cannot commit suicide and destroy otherness. Otherness is, has been and always will be greater than god.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10810
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:49 pm

Ecmandu,

Otherness is always quantified. It must be given a quantity to exist. There is no such thing as an uncaused quantity.
JohnJBannan
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:57 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:Ecmandu,

Otherness is always quantified. It must be given a quantity to exist. There is no such thing as an uncaused quantity.


You’re spending the whole thread trying to quantify god. Absurd.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10810
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:13 pm

You’re spending the whole thread failing to understand that quantity cannot quantify itself.
JohnJBannan
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:32 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:You’re spending the whole thread failing to understand that quantity cannot quantify itself.


We are quantity quantifying our selves. We have what’s called “self recursive awareness” .. we know we exist. Are you saying god doesn’t know god exists?
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10810
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:34 pm

No, we are not. We are built by quantity.
JohnJBannan
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:39 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:No, we are not. We are built by quantity.


You know, sometimes it’d be nice if you quoted me in your reply so people could see how ridiculous your responses are.

You literally said to me that “quantity cannot quantify itself“. All of us do it everyday. We’re aware we exist.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10810
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby gib » Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:40 pm

JohnJBannan wrote:God’s existence is not created existence. God is uncaused. Created existence is caused. God’s uncaused existence can logically precede caused existence. No infinite regress is required.


There is only one existence. You can't split it up into caused and uncaused. A caused existence implies that something caused it, but that means something existed before it, which means there was already existence before it. Either what you're calling caused existence isn't existence per se (but something in existence) or you've got an infinite regress on your hands.

JohnJBannan wrote:An indivisible unit of spacetime creates spacetime and cannot be what it creates.


Please address my point about the H2O molecule. I gave that analogy so that you'd understand where I'm coming from. Just as an H2O molecule is still water, an indivisible unit of spacetime is still spacetime. You need to explain to me how this isn't the case for spacetime if you want to move beyond this point.
My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

In fact, the idea that there's more differences between groups than there is between individuals is actually the fundamental racist idea.
- Jordan Peterson

Here's a good rule of thumb for politics--attribute everything to stupidity unless you can prove malice.
- Ben Shapiro

right outta high school i tried to get a job as a proctologist but i couldn't find an opening.
- promethean75

Ahh... gib, zombie universes are so last year! I’m doing hyper dimensional mirror realities now.
- Ecmandu
User avatar
gib
resident exorcist
 
Posts: 9019
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
Location: in your mom

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby JohnJBannan » Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:04 pm

Here’s my latest:

I. THE ARGUMENT FROM POSSIBILITY (BY JOHN J. BANNAN)
The argument from possibility proves the existence of God by demonstrating that physical reality in the Cosmos must ultimately derive from an uncaused Creator reality with the greatest intelligence possible we call God. An uncaused Creator reality must be real, because the Cosmos cannot come from nothing. If the Cosmos came from nothing, then nothing would still be the case because something cannot come from nothing. In order for nothing not to be the case, then something indestructible must always be the case, and only that which is without parts is indestructible because destruction is the disassociation of parts. Only an uncaused reality is without parts, because there is no causal explanation for an uncaused reality without parts to supply a causal explanation. Therefore, the indestructible reality that must always be the case must be an uncaused reality. All physical reality in the Cosmos is made of parts, and therefore caused by those parts. Because all physical reality is caused, then the cause of physical reality must ultimately be this indestructible uncaused Creator reality.

Because this uncaused Creator reality is not made of parts, then the decision on the creation of physical reality cannot be predicated on the working of parts. This uncaused Creator reality must be capable of creating any physical reality that is logically possible, because without parts there is no casual chain of parts necessitating one creation of physical reality over another. Because there is no causal chain necessitating the creation of any particular physical reality, then this uncaused Creator reality must be free to choose to create physical reality. Because this uncaused Creator reality is free to choose to create physical reality, then it must know of all logically possible creations in order to choose. Intelligence requires knowledge of the possible. This uncaused Creator having knowledge of all that is logically possible for physical reality must have the greatest intelligence possible. We call this uncaused Creator with the greatest intelligence possible God.
JohnJBannan
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:31 pm

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Meno_ » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:15 pm

The ultimate question. is whether reason or substance , logic , or the essential precedes. Intelligence can not possibly face this choice, of such sequence was determined. Bit of OT was undermined, the same confusion arises.

Therefore , at some point the two must meet, only to appear to divide again vice versa

Appearance and reality are an endless cycle of chains, AMD that chain itself is dynamic and variable.

The source and the effect are not , and are disti -guistinguishable at various stages,

They are equal and opposite. , contemporously significant and remotely significant.

Intelligence requeres levels of organization to coalesce and disperse.
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7270
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Meno_ » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:34 pm

Meno_ wrote:The ultimate question. is whether reason or substance , logic , or the essential precedes. Intelligence can not possibly face this choice, of such sequence was determined. Bit of OT was undermined, the same confusion arises.

Therefore , at some point the two must meet, only to appear to divide again vice versa

Appearance and reality are an endless cycle of chains, AMD that chain itself is dynamic and variable.

The source and the effect are not , and are disti -guistinguishable at various stages,

They are equal and opposite. , contemporously significant and remotely significant.

Intelligence requres levels of organization to coalesce and disperse.


To atomize and variably redact to identify by a superimposition of levels unto an absolute which transpires unto It'self, while dispersing into other than .

This process is a necessary condition of what transpires, as appearance and reality,, and such demonstration becomes apotheosis by the virtue of it's aposarance, rather then it's assumed opposite negation.

That opposite, is demonstrateable nominally , unconsciously.

Levels of unconscious , preconscious, subconscious, conscious and superconscious states are similarly quantified into variable bubbles of significance.

This is the material substance to John's logical argument.
Last edited by Meno_ on Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7270
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Ecmandu » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:54 pm

Johns argument isn’t possible.

Every possible being needs otherness to exist.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 10810
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: The Fourteen Cosmological Arguments for the Existence of

Postby Meno_ » Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:24 pm

Ecmandu wrote:Johns argument isn’t possible.

Every possible being needs otherness to exist.



The argument appears possible. but uncertain.
Meno_
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7270
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am
Location: Mysterium Tremendum

PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users