To put it mildly.
Wait…what?!
Jakeyjake
How about the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima? I suppose that sometimes ethics is like morality - in the eye of the beholder.
The killing of innocents - Japanese men, women and CHILDREN who were bombed. Was that really justifiable? Were the lives of those non-military people less important than the lives of our American soldiers albeit they say that many of our soldiers lives were saved because of that. Were they simply the spoils of war?
But was that truly justifiable or just in the eyes of the powers that be? Was that ethical? What does Jakeyjake think about that?
What is the most ethical thing which we can say? Perhaps to do no harm at least insomuch as we are able to.
Are you just considering the big actions when you say that? Can there be little incidents where you might be just a bit less than ethical?
You are being facetious here, right? Big guy, little guys, where is the dominance? But then again, if there were more than enough of them, you would probably go down!
I wonder - if they could speak to you - what they would say about the value of their lives.
I am not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here… just trying to delve a wee bit deeper.
The use of atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima were never moral or ethical from where I stand, but I bet you that most of the people who developed those weapons and green-lit their use on Japan were convinced either by themselves or by others that what they were doing was ethical. Once instructed to perform or aid in deeds that they once would have denounced, people often will rationalize their behavior, often citing circumstances that they believe are exceptional to their specific situation.
Such as…? Does calling in sick to work in order to go to the beach count as an unethical incident? Is that the magnitude you’re looking at? If so: guilty.
What do you mean where is the dominance? Dominance is controlling or influencing things. Bigger things can more easily dominate littler things. If there were enough, yeah… a race of tiny people may find a way to take down the giant in the scenario I described in the OP. However, I could think of ways to prevent that-- such as purposely demolishing the structures they’d normally consider sacrosanct – buildings that wouldn’t normally be military targets. If I wanted to prevent any sort of uprising, I’d stamp my feet down on their schools, hospitals, nursing homes. Imagine how powerful a deterrent it could be, if it was made clear that any dissent would result in a giant white sneaker coming down to flatten a school building or the nursing home granny is playing bingo in. 
That’s as far-fetched a scenario as the one I described in my OP, considering that bugs exist in a world far below me, while I exist in a world that is far above their perception: distant and unreachable. However, I actually don’t have to suspend disbelief for your scenario. That is because we already know what most insects value: reproducing like crazy (often cannibalizing one another after doing so) and invading each other’s territory for resources. Ants especially are practically genocidal, warring with and killing rival colonies without regard for the individual lives of their soldiers and sometimes even abducting larvae from the conquered in order to produce a generation of slaves for the colony. Ants don’t value even their own lives, and in sufficient numbers they will continue trying to gather food even when some jerk like me is stepping on them. I’d be the guy to know: I’ve stepped on a lot of ants. 
The lesser evolved creatures such as ants and viruses overcoming civilization is currently again a proper metaphor for alien invasion, when the chips of immunity are down for humankind.
Nukes also are metaphoric of unleashed powers waged , and guess what form of life would survive a nuclear war? You guessed it: the cockroach.
Hope I never need to isolate myself in a strange castle, whete I find myself changed into a bug, the result of all the positive accumulation. of karmic rewards which my supposed good and loving actions earned me!
Maybe what’s coming is inavoidable, and AI will incorporate all the techno-oligarchs , in order to save what’s left.
Maybe we should presupposes and reiterate Orwell’s truth in these noticeable coming attractions.
The idea is scary, actually. Not because I would worry about being evil or in my terms doing things that now I would rather not do to people, but because I wouldn’t know what the hell to do, at least in terms of the big stuff. I would certainly make my own situation more comfortable right off the bat. Little decisions might be easy, but what to do about suffering, mortality, people I hate, vicious people, certain metaphysical issue, the destruction of nature, carnivores and their prey, that is things that seem built in to the current situation that bother me, I don’t know. I guess if I had absolute power, this would mean that I could grant myself absolute knowledge, so then I could make the right choices. But the idea of filling myself with absolute knowledge is also rather frightening. I mean, right now I am sure there are things I don’t want to know about myself and people around me. I certainly strive to find that stuff out, in increments, but to have all knoweldge pour into me so that I could not make monkey’s paw wishes in relation to general problematic issues, fuck, that’s some scary shit.
Hmm, how is that scary? It’s exciting.
=D>
OMG, Urwrong, you’re comment was so unexpectedly funny that I about spit out my coffee laughing so hard!
Arc’s back, yay!
You are the big stuff only in regards to the size of the itsy bitsy people do you have absolute power over them, not God powers of being all knowing, just giant power from what I understood or did I misread it?
lol
Hm, not without significant harm to their own people. They would also have to deal with my giant rotting corpse. Although I guess that would still be less problematic than if I were still alive and stamping my feet on their towns for fun. 
Jakeyjake
I wonder how human beings can convince themselves that killing innocents is ethical?
I even wonder how they could be convinced (and perhaps many were not) that doing the above was “necessary”. Blindly following orders? Chauvinism? Fear of court martial? Living up the oath they made?
This is true but I daresay only for so long before the nightmares cropped up and their own shadows began to reveal their selves to them.
Have you ever felt guilty about that at all? Well actually, if you took and used a sick day that you had coming to you, perhaps not too much so, but if, in so doing, you left your boss kind of in a bind, might that pinch your conscience?
I see your point but where is the “true” strength in dominating the weak and vulnerable?
.
You mean like a big, burly football player who faints at the sight of a needle?
Did you mean to say that wouldn’tnormally be military targets?
So could you be one of those who refused to drop your bomb on those two cities, except for their military structures? Could you ever wonder about that?
I hate to say this but I’m sure the garrisons not in action 1were sparsely distributed among mainline populations, and the same thing in Vietnam, there men were extremely adept at hiding assets, with kamikazi soldiers being camouflaged.
Another thing, thousands of US soldiers would have been killed in their place, every one of them someone’s son, brother or sweetheart.
War is war, and sentiments aside, as soon as you see the white of their eyes.
Oops, that was Klausewitz…
Unfortunately, too many. Just look at the military.
Felt guilty about calling in sick when I wasn’t? No. And virtually everybody has done it. Even HR employees do it. Having employees who take “sickies” is a cost of doing business, and there is no reason to feel guilty. Many businesses are run and managed by cretins who wouldn’t hesitate cut to someone loose regardless of personal circumstance if they felt they were making their department or themselves look bad in the eyes of others. To hell with that. “The boss in a bind” should have had more coverage. They accepted a position where they have increased accountability for the running of their department and the staff who work in it, and they are compensated for being on call. If they don’t want a job and the accompanying increased pay that requires they be accountable for staffing and covering for the shortages that may arise, legit it or not, they can resign.
Does it matter?
I did say that.
I would never agree to take ANY role in a mission to utilize those weapons anywhere. Also, what do you mean drop a bomb on the cities except military structures? How does that work? 
Also how does that relate to the specific quotation you replied to?
And split it up.
Did you misread the thread title Wendy?
Jakeyjake
Does it matter?
[/quote]
I would rather ask: Do the weak and the vulnerable have within them true potential for greatness, for “true” strength? The answer to that is YES so it does indeed matter. Out of little acorns grow giant oaks and sometimes it is the weakest-looking tree which hangs on for dear life and survives the chaos.
[b]In his iconic speech at the Lincoln Memorial for the 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, King urged America to “make real the promises of democracy.” King synthesized portions of his earlier speeches to capture both the necessity for change and the potential for hope in American society.
I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation. [applause]
Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves [Audience:] (Yeah) who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity. (Hmm)
But one hundred years later (All right), the Negro still is not free. (My Lord, Yeah) One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. (Hmm) One hundred years later (All right), the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later (My Lord) [applause], the Negro is still languished in the corners of American society and finds himself in exile in his own land. (Yes, yes) And so we’ve come here today to dramatize a shameful condition.
In a sense we’ve come to our nation’s capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence (Yeah), they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men (My Lord), would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. (My Lord) Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked insufficient funds. [enthusiastic applause] (My Lord, Lead on, Speech, speech)
But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. (My Lord) [laughter] (No, no) We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. (Sure enough) And so we’ve come to cash this check (Yes), a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom (Yes) and the security of justice. (Yes Lord) [enthusiastic applause]
We have also come to this hallowed spot (My Lord) to remind America of the fierce urgency of now. (Mhm) This is no time (My Lord) to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. [applause] (Yes, Speak on it!) Now is the time (Yes it is) to make real the promises of democracy. (My Lord) Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time [applause] to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time (Yes) [applause] (Now) to make justice a reality for all of God’s children.
It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. This sweltering summer of the Negro’s legitimate discontent (Yes) will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. (My Lord) 1963 is not an end, but a beginning. (Yes) And those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. [enthusiastic applause] There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges.
But there is something that I must say to my people, who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice: in the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. (My Lord, No, no, no, no) [applause] We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. (My Lord) Again and again (No, no), we must rise to the majestic heights (Yes) of meeting physical force with soul force. (My Lord) The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people (Hmm), for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny [sustained applause], and they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone.
And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, “When will you be satisfied?” (Never) We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. (Yes) We can never be satisfied [applause] as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. [applause] We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro’s basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. (Yes) We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their selfhood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating for whites only. [applause] (Yes, Hallelujah) We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. (Yeah, That’s right, Let’s go) [applause] No, no, we are not satisfied and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters (Yes) and righteousness like a mighty stream. [applause] (Let’s go, Tell it)
I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. (My Lord) Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. (My Lord, That’s right) Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution (Yeah, Yes) and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith (Hmm) that unearned suffering is redemptive. Go back to Mississippi (Yeah), go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities (Yes), knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. (Yes) Let us not wallow in the valley of despair. (My Lord)
I say to you today, my friends [applause], so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow (Uh-huh), I still have a dream. (Yes) It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream. (Yes)
I have a dream (Mhm) that one day (Yes) this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed (Hah): “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.” (Yeah, Uh-huh, Hear hear) [applause]
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia (Yes, Talk), the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
I have a dream (Yes) [applause] that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice (Yeah), sweltering with the heat of oppression (Mhm), will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream (Yeah) [applause] that my four little children (Well) will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. (My Lord) I have a dream today. [enthusiastic applause]
I have a dream that one day down in Alabama, with its vicious racists (Yes, Yeah), with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of “interposition” and “nullification” (Yes), one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers. I have a dream today. [applause] (God help him, Preach)
I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted (Yes), every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain (Yes), and the crooked places will be made straight (Yes), and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed [cheering], and all flesh shall see it together. (Yes Lord)
This is our hope. (Yes, Yes) This is the faith that I go back to the South with. (Yes) With this faith (My Lord) we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. (Yes, All right) With this faith (Yes) we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation (Yes) into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. (Talk about it) With this faith (Yes, My Lord) we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together (Yes), to stand up for freedom together (Yeah), knowing that we will be free one day. [sustained applause]
This will be the day, this will be the day when all of God’s children (Yes, Yeah) will be able to sing with new meaning: “My country, ‘tis of thee (Yeah, Yes), sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. (Oh yes) Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim’s pride (Yeah), from every mountainside, let freedom ring!” (Yeah)
And if America is to be a great nation (Yes), this must become true. So let freedom ring (Yes, Amen) from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. (Uh-huh) Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania. (Yes, all right) Let freedom ring (Yes) from the snow-capped Rockies of Colorado. (Well) Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California. (Yes) But not only that: (No) Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia. [cheering] (Yeah, Oh yes, Lord) Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee. (Yes) Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi. (Yes) From every mountainside (Yeah) [sustained applause], let freedom ring.
And when this happens [applause] (Let it ring, Let it ring), and when we allow freedom ring (Let it ring), when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city (Yes Lord), we will be able to speed up that day when all of God’s children (Yeah), black men (Yeah) and white men (Yeah), Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics (Yes), will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual: “Free at last! (Yes) Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!” [enthusiastic applause]
[/b]
What has happened since that speech?
You say ethics change depending on the circumstance, which means you wouldn’t assert dominance / be a tyrant to people who are normal sized but you would if people were the size of fleas? What is the reason for this? Is it because it is not immoral to dominate something insignificant in size compared to you? Or is it not really about morals and you would dominate and step on tiny people simply because you could get away with it?
Interesting thread btw.
Ethics might change? So are you saying that it becomes ethical to dominate people when they are bug-sized? Is that because you think it is morally OK to be unethical to people who are the size of ants as they are less significant than you, or is it because you can get away with it when the people are the size of ants.