Modern psychology - a joke?

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Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby AutSider » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:29 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial ... y_disorder

Antisocial (or dissocial) personality disorder is characterized by a pervasive pattern of disregard for, or violation of, the rights of others. There may be an impoverished moral sense or conscience and a history of crime, legal problems, and impulsive and aggressive behavior.


The same definition is used in the DSM.

A psychology, a science, uses the contingent social construct of 'rights' as a basis for a diagnosis of a personality disorder. This implies that whatever the current, mainstream society regards as right and wrong, and thus bases the concept of rights on, is always correct and on the basis of this social construct certain behaviors are to be judged as having a sick, unfit biological basis.

Let's say I live in Sweden, and Sweden decides that it is the right of immigrants to rape Swedish women. So if I disregard their right to do that, and stop them, I am antisocial and have a personality disorder?
If the movie Braveheart is to be trusted as somewhat historically accurate, did not the English noblemen claim to have a similar right?

How is this definition not a total joke, when you can have a personality disorder one moment, and the next moment, when the law changes, you're suddenly all healthy? Shouldn't sciences base their diagnoses on something more resistant to change, more rigid, than simply whatever are the social norms and laws of the current society?
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby phoneutria » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:42 pm

You cannot have this conversation before agreeing upon a definition for the phrase "rights of others".
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Amorphos » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:21 pm

2op

I think this is part of the whole philosophy of ‘the system’, their means of control. You are right about psychiatrists, they are part of the system and will judge and condemn you even if you haven’t done anything wrong.
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby The Golden Turd » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:12 am

Don't use the DSM for starters, its only legally valid for the necessityvof courts, and the means to defining changes, as one section of the population reacts negatively to the word "dementia" (the old, who are scared of it, react well out of proportion to its actuality, thinking all is over) and the young who don't give a damn if told they have dementia, and shrug it off. So they cut in half what qualifies as dementia, but the population IS more or less just as it was before.

There is medical psychology, and philosophical psychology. Doctors address problems and call it a syndrome if they don't quite know, philosophers call it a problem and investigate.

I encourage all non-medically qualified philosophers to try their hand at studying psychology, and once you get enough of a background and can stand on you own two feet, feel free to attack, admonish, and even pull the rug of authority out from clinical psychologists who try to ride their degrees over you.... many of them are ignorant outside of the bare naked necessities of running their practice, and fumble around in philosophy.

As they are trained and legally liable, you can't expect them to be too inventive or going too far out on a limb intuitively. Even if right, patient can perceive its wrong, sue.... they can loose everything including their practice.

At the same time, its not our position as philosophers to know what every medication does, the list of every syndrome and disorder, etc. We can tell someone they are fucked up.... even identify the parts that are fucked up, but make it clear that were not a psychologist, and they need to follow up. Why? They might have treatments your unaware of, group therapies, etc. Second opinions are awesome too.

So yeah.... a philosopher has no business looking at the editions of the DSM, as it has no relation to the real world.Its a compromise for clinical use, and straddles the current medical and pharmaceutical ways and means out society uses. It is the first step (unless the police dragged you in for observation, in which case they are the first step).

Our job is as it always was, just now we don't try for the medical diagnosis, or half added and shaky handed hold a scapel over someone. We might have the very best of understandings on how a disorder operates, but dammit, I just don't trust our ability to keep people alive with some of the hair brained assumptions we've come to over the years. We never took the Hippocratic Oath.

Some basic things we can do is make it easier for them. There hadn't been much effort at all in converting old philosophical texts that discussed medicine and cognition (including "ethics") into modern terminology, charting how they relate to our modern understanding of the mind. They were amazingly accurate at points in the past, entire schools of philosophy endlessly researched aspects of mind and philosophy, and its more or less off limits for consultation as no one specializes in merging.

You have a little effort by Marxists to convert their theories, mostly due to the absurd alliance between the Marxist and Freudians in France, but.... its largely going nowhere. Our best bet is to start ancuent to modern, creating a wikibased concordance, who's table of contents is neurological, by part of body, or behavior, and every philosopher or questioned or discussed a aspect can be listed, with graphics discussing what they were probably talking about. This can further bevreferenced to norms of the current DSM, links to Web MD, whatever....

Psychologists, because they are creatures responsive to the courts and politically responsive medical boards, will never be independent as we are. If a psychological disorder suddenly has to become embraced as the new norm, expect them to dance around the issue. It remains very much still a psychological disease, and the authority of med boards and the courts can't make it otherwise. We can still tell a kleptomaniac "listen buddy, your fucked up." and write about the subject, advocate, etc. But if medical psychologist move away from it for political reasons, acting illogical and incoherent.... saying "yeah, stealing stuff impulsively is perfectly natural" then that is the case for them. Sad, yes.... but its our reality.

Its a side effect of the courts relying on expert witnesses to determine the sanity of a defendant, it was originally the judges job. Medical psychologists need pay, so they go to courts, courts and legislative bodies pass laws on their behavior and standing.... become quasi-inserted into the system, even when individually, they might have next to no contact with it.

This is no different than in civil law countries like Italy where philosophers can write on the law, and its history, and have more standing than precedent, like under common law. As a result, you end up with two kinds of philosophers in those countries, and legally authorative professors at universities. In the US, nobody paid Rawls much attention.... he was a stupid goof, HUD out at Oxfordm same for Searle at Berkeley. But had they worked in Italy, and you committed a crime, their works will be a primary factor in determining what the law is, and I'm sure the medical practices, especially psychologists, hate us more in those countries than we hate them here.

Sweden has hate crime laws, so you can't expect their system to function logically in the long term.... its a bad example. Once you start banning certain abstractions due to emotional damage, ALL speech which effects emotions must eventually be banned. There is no long term way to contain it, only short term rationalization as to what makes sense. It rips society apart piecemeal, and no one ever sees it comming, as its always absurd how it comes about. In Christianity, we still remember the absurdity of religious fanatics demanding always God being capitalized.... people still chew you out sometimes, like its the only thing that matters. We had a Hugh period in the English language when we couldn't decide what got capitalized and what didn't. Shit, I can't even imagine the absurdities Hate Crime speech will develop. It will obviously become a tool for pogroms and for people to force their legal prejudices against people supposedly hating for speaking their minds, but its hard to say what else it will evolve into. Its a very disturbing philosophy, and its why I openly advocate nuking Sweden. Solves that problem. Might even usher in world peace, once they stop issuing Nobel peace prizes to tyrants and dictators. Do they really need a prize for NOT killing one another?
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby statiktech » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:40 pm

phoneutria wrote:You cannot have this conversation before agreeing upon a definition for the phrase "rights of others".


Quite right. This bears repeating before we begin talking about how psychologists and psychiatrists judge and control people. While I agree that "rights" was perhaps an odd choice of language, I get the impression that it's referring more to natural rights, so to speak, than legal rights. Rights not contingent upon government or custom; that sort of thing. It's certainly debatable whether such rights exist at all, but I think many take for granted that they do, and that such (inalienable) rights are distinct from legal rights.

I think psychiatry is less about control than giving people a means to cope with the conflicts that arise between human nature and societal expectations. When your choices are to adapt or be miserable, you'll find lots of people seeking help to adapt if not given enough time to do so naturally. If you consider the time line of human evolution, it seems apparent that we haven't had sufficient time to adapt to the sorts of environments we are expected to live in now. Technology has overtaken us. The DSM is a dangerous thing because it inclines people to view behavioral issues as sicknesses rather than consequences.
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:55 am

Key thing about a joke is that it should be funny.
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby AutSider » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:40 pm

statiktech, inalienable natural rights? Where do you see that? Does a zebra have an inalienable natural right not to get eaten by a lion? Does nature give a shit? "Natural right" is no less an oxymoron than a "Living death". Rights are an artificial, human construct, desirable ideals. When we say somebody has a right to something, for example, education, what we mean is that those of us who are in favor of those rights will do something practically to endorse them, probably my means of financing the state so it builds schools and allows everybody to educate themselves. It does not mean that those rights are inalienable and necessarily embedded in underlying laws of the cosmos/nature itself. There are no rights outside of constructs of conscious beings.
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby James S Saint » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:56 pm

phoneutria wrote:You cannot have this conversation before agreeing upon a definition for the phrase "rights of others".

That's true, because the intent of that definition of "antisocial" was concerned with "inconsideration of the concerns of others". The word "rights" is inappropriate when speaking to antisocial people (inconsiderate, inattentive, disrespectful, unaware, and skeptical).

Anything that could be called "respectable psychology" has been relegated to the military and DARPA. What is found in the "private sector", is intentionally very superficial, simpleminded, and naive ("a joke" - insidiously intentional).

Realize that the more real psychology the population knows, the less effective social engineering can be. It is much the same as occultism, the more people know of what is going on, the less it can go on. Thus secrets must be kept if power is to be maintained. And secrets include misleading people into thinking that they know when they actually haven't a clue (aka "a joke", "fooling").
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:57 pm

Arbiter of Change wrote:Modern psychology - a joke?

One can call it a "joke", yes, but unfortunately it is a "serious joke", so that one should say: "it is a part of a typical modern problem".

Amorphos wrote:I think this is part of the whole philosophy of ‘the system’, their means of control.

That said "system" is the main part of the typical modern problem.
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby statiktech » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:42 pm

Arbiter of Change wrote:statiktech, inalienable natural rights? Where do you see that? Does a zebra have an inalienable natural right not to get eaten by a lion? Does nature give a shit? "Natural right" is no less an oxymoron than a "Living death". Rights are an artificial, human construct, desirable ideals. When we say somebody has a right to something, for example, education, what we mean is that those of us who are in favor of those rights will do something practically to endorse them, probably my means of financing the state so it builds schools and allows everybody to educate themselves. It does not mean that those rights are inalienable and necessarily embedded in underlying laws of the cosmos/nature itself. There are no rights outside of constructs of conscious beings.


I didn't say, or even remotely imply, that I believe in such rights. I said I get the impression that that's what the quote was referring to. Look up natural rights. Some people certainly believe we have them. They're just considered to be basic human rights, and lots of people take for granted that they do exist.

The fact that you don't believe natural rights exist doesn't keep people from talking as if they do. If you look at what some would consider natural rights, like the right to life, liberty, or property, you could get some clarification as to what the quote was referring to. That's all I was saying. Keep in mind, I'm being charitable with this interpretation. I still think "rights" was a poor choice of language.
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby LaughingMan » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:37 am

All of psychology and psychiatry are systematic institutional forms of behavioral or social population control. The whole ideological dogma of both rests upon the duality of social conformity versus nonconformity which the later in turns gets a negative categorization based upon the fallacious reasoning that revolves around a constant appeal to authority.
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Mr Reasonable » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:53 am

I didn't read the OP, but yes. Modern psychology is a joke. They're trying to correlate a handful of observable brain states with an infinite multitude of behavior states in order to justify creating tons of "medicines" which are essentially like trying to repair a swiss watch with a hammer. They get people to buy into it by telling them it's not their fault and that they'll feel better with the drugs. `
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Rhinoboy » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:46 pm

Ahh yes the DSM V and its counterpart the ICD 10.

When considering these manuals it is important to remember that they are under constant revision. Furthermore though they are diagnostic manuals workers in the mental health field view them only as a best fit. I don't know anyone that sees them as a gospel to the workings of the mind.

There is a lot of dispute in the mental health sector as to the best way to help people with a mental health diagnosis and whether indeed this diagnosis should be given at all. The current ideal (though it certainly does not permeate reality yet) that I see is a pull away from medicalisation towards recovery models, a turn towards humanistic views of Rogers and Peplau and a more Bio-psycho-social approach tailored to each individual.

The DSM V and ICD10 have the potential for abuse but be under no illusion that this is the only tool used in mental health services. Careful consideration is given to each individual case on a individual basis. Such is even written into Codes of Condict of various health professions.

Delivering mental health support is as much an art as it is a science and dispite what you may think the field is not saturated by control hungry jailors but by people who on the whole want to care for those in pain who are otherwise shunned by the general population.

It should be noted that these views relate to UK services. I have no personal experience of US or any other mental health services first hand.
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:51 pm

Ddue, everything modern is a joke, fucking joke, children and ladies do pardon me, for we are living in a world of codependency where everyone is sucking on everyone else's dick, not warriors ruling but salesmen and doctors, not exterminating but healing, correcting, see how all is bad?
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:53 pm

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This idiom stresses to be careful what you throw away and to not throw away something valuable or important along with things unimportant. The birth of this idiom can be traced back to 1512 where a German artist created a woodcut showing a woman actually pouring a baby out with its bath water.
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby AutSider » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:32 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Ddue, everything modern is a joke, fucking joke, children and ladies do pardon me, for we are living in a world of codependency where everyone is sucking on everyone else's dick, not warriors ruling but salesmen and doctors, not exterminating but healing, correcting, see how all is bad?


Are you drunk, or high?
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:52 pm

I am Dionysus versus the Crucified, I guess I am drunk and also high, some call it frenzy, you can call it whatever you want, but what is KTS link doing in your signature, that is the question.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby objet petit a » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:00 pm

Another question is why it says 'thinker' under your name.
:lol:
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:04 pm

Merchants are fags, said so long time ago my Montenegrin ancestors, and were they boy right! When emotions become too difficult to be felt they are denied one way or another, the tension which is too high to be endured is artificially reduced to a tolerable level, sort of emotional cheating, so when anger becoems unbearable peopel become too friendly, too forgiving, too happy and so on and so forth. And so are these merchants dudes, which is why they are considered fags, no longer fighting, only negotiating. But negotiation is for women. The same goes for doctors who are obsessed with helping. All in all, they share one thing in common and that is the preoccupation with other people's lives, with other people's needs, because they can't deal with their own. Problems no longer specific, concrete, precise. Similarly, their solutions no longer specific, individual, concrete, precise, exact. They are now general, common, shared. Similarly, solutions become general. Noone owning their own problems, everyone projecting them onto the universe, calling it "mankind" and all sorts of stupid names. Funny considering that if you can't solve specific problems, you can't solve general problems. And there are no general problems, all problems are specific and general problems are simply non-existent problems. When people identify their own problems with some general problems they are effectively misunderstanding their own problems, and this is preferable to them because it gives them the hope they can solve them, whereas owning their own problems is more depressing, more difficult thing to pull. So modern psychology is a joke, how can it not be in the age of codependency, in the age of merchants and doctors?
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:05 pm

objet petit a wrote:Another question is why it says 'thinker' under your name.
:lol:


When I say to myself I am a thinker it gives me confidence to act like I am one and when I write it under my own name it makes it even more convincing I even bought into it and now everyday everywhere I go I think and share my thoughts with other people though that sometimes get me into troubles because sometimes I am not good a thinker but for the most part it's okay.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby objet petit a » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:15 pm

That is great.
Don't let yourself get down by jokes like mine.
:)
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:17 pm

See what is problem with modern psychologists, they have degenerate habits, degenerate for a male type, you see, their habits are feminine, they survived not by struggling but by, quite simply, doing nothing, by being peaceful, so they take these habits as a rule, they can't see or think beyond them, and since most people are like them, they think that's normal and anything that is different they consider it abnormal and they can't question it because they would have to face their own inferiority then. I tell you this in confidence but doctors are degenerates. And merchants. Warriors are the way to go. But real warriors.

You know what a real warrior is? one who accepts chaos. Does not deny it, reject it, but accepts it and then masters it or perishes from it. Degenerate is anyone who has a strong habit of denying chaos. And modern age is such, built on this chaos-denying set of habits. So this is why the word "warrior" ain't funny, you see my boy, because warriors can be degenerate chaos-deniers as well. Just cause you go to war does not mean you do not deny chaos. The question is what the world gives and how you react to it and how consistently, do you accept it and strive to overcome or reject it. THAT is the question!
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:19 pm

objet petit a wrote:That is great.
Don't let yourself get down by jokes like mine.
:)


You are welcome.

Do you have a facebook so that I can add you, I see you are a good man, like most people here.
"Let's keep the debate about poor people in the US specifically. It's the land of opportunity. So everyone has an opportunity. That means everyone can get money. So some people who don't have it just aren't using thier opportunities, and then out of those who are using them, then most squander what they gain through poor choices, which keeps them poor. It's no one else's fault. The end."

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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby GreatandWiseTrixie » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:22 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:Merchants are fags, said so long time ago my Montenegrin ancestors, and were they boy right! When emotions become too difficult to be felt they are denied one way or another, the tension which is too high to be endured is artificially reduced to a tolerable level, sort of emotional cheating, so when anger becoems unbearable peopel become too friendly, too forgiving, too happy and so on and so forth. And so are these merchants dudes, which is why they are considered fags, no longer fighting, only negotiating. But negotiation is for women. The same goes for doctors who are obsessed with helping. All in all, they share one thing in common and that is the preoccupation with other people's lives, with other people's needs, because they can't deal with their own. Problems no longer specific, concrete, precise. Similarly, their solutions no longer specific, individual, concrete, precise, exact. They are now general, common, shared. Similarly, solutions become general. Noone owning their own problems, everyone projecting them onto the universe, calling it "mankind" and all sorts of stupid names. Funny considering that if you can't solve specific problems, you can't solve general problems. And there are no general problems, all problems are specific and general problems are simply non-existent problems. When people identify their own problems with some general problems they are effectively misunderstanding their own problems, and this is preferable to them because it gives them the hope they can solve them, whereas owning their own problems is more depressing, more difficult thing to pull. So modern psychology is a joke, how can it not be in the age of codependency, in the age of merchants and doctors?


I think I am going to soak up my fags and women doctors for the time being. I never complain about free massages. Sure they might be dumber than you Magnus, but doesn't it make you feel good about yourself, having personal servants?

Psychologist males may be faggy, and childish in their diagnosis, but male psychiatrists may often be correct in their analysis of the human psyche. This makes them both Sherlock Holmsian, male, and not fags.
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Re: Modern psychology - a joke?

Postby Rhinoboy » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:25 pm

Magnus Anderson wrote:See what is problem with modern psychologists, they have degenerate habits, degenerate for a male type, you see, their habits are feminine, they survived not by struggling but by, quite simply, doing nothing, by being peaceful, so they take these habits as a rule, they can't see or think beyond them, and since most people are like them, they think that's normal and anything that is different they consider it abnormal and they can't question it because they would have to face their own inferiority then. I tell you this in confidence but doctors are degenerates. And merchants. Warriors are the way to go. But real warriors.

You know what a real warrior is? one who accepts chaos. Does not deny it, reject it, but accepts it and then masters it or perishes from it. Degenerate is anyone who has a strong habit of denying chaos. And modern age is such, built on this chaos-denying set of habits. So this is why the word "warrior" ain't funny, you see my boy, because warriors can be degenerate chaos-deniers as well. Just cause you go to war does not mean you do not deny chaos. The question is what the world gives and how you react to it and how consistently, do you accept it and strive to overcome or reject it. THAT is the question!


Strange because what you are talking about there sounds like a lot of third wave CBT such as acceptance and commitment therapy. Perhaps you should not be so quick to judge the entire field when some of the things you have just said psychologists should do they already are.
Last edited by Rhinoboy on Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Be not afraid of going slowly. Be only afraid of standing still.

Follow your heart, and whatever the truth is you can at least be cirtain that you have been true to yourself.
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