## philosophy in film

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### Re: philosophy in film

Films like this come along from time to time. A hardened, battered man [usually an ex-con] who is just around the corner from throwing in the towel happens upon a young boy who has himself been battered by life and then some. Something in boy brings out something in the man that neither one of them ever expected to see.

Then it's only a matter of how to end it. In the tradition of Hollywood or in the tradition of the real world. Or, as here, in the tradition of both.

Men. They are everywhere here. The kind of men that either will or will not rub you the wrong way. But the point I always raise is this: Look around them. What in the world would you expect of them given the manner in which the circumstances we see shaped their lives. They live out on the "margins of society". Not quite working class and not quite lumpin. And when you are "just a kid" out there you're not really a kid at all.

These are basically a slew of sub-mental folks that more or less live one day at a time. Needless to say from paycheck to paycheck. But at least they're living. If you know what I mean. And some of them are clearly more decent than others.

File this one under "dark and slow".

And look out for the undertow. Nihilism some will call it. But those who have never been caught up in it [most of you I suspect] don't really have a clue how things like this unfold when you are born and bred to it.

IMDb

Gary Poulter, who plays the part of Wade the father a.k.a. G-Daawg, was a homeless man given the role by director David Gordon Green, who often casts locals in his movies. Poulter died on the streets of Austin on Feb. 19, 2013, 2 months after filming was finished.

at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_(2013_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/3WPLVEUx5AU

JOE [2013]
Directed by David Gordon Green

Gary: Hey, you old man, you look at me. I got som'in' to say to you. Every time we land someplace new, you say it's gonna be different, but it ain't. You mess up... a lot... then you leave a mess for me and Momma and Dorothy to clean up, and that ain't right. That's all I'm sayin'. Hell, I do what I gotta do. You do whatever the hell you want - whatever you can get away with. You're just a... selfish old drunk. Yeah, that's what you is. Yeah, this place is gonna be after us. Hell, they'll be on you, and they're gonna beat your ass. And I hate to see you go down. You know you're my daddy. You know what you are, ain't you? I'm talking at chu.
[Wade gives a long silent stare]
Gary: What'chu done this time? They'll beat your ass, shit. That's what they're gonna do. You can count on it.
[Wade suddenly slaps Gary hard then walks away]

...

Gary: Let me see that snake.
Joe: Ain't he a nice one? See those fangs? You get bit by those, you're gonna die. Or you're gonna wanna die.

...

Gary: What y'all doing? Y'all cutting these trees?
Joe: We're killing trees.
Gary: What for?
Joe: Neidermeyer land. The owner hires us to get rid of what's on it so they can come in and put strong pines on it. Nobody wants these trees. These trees are weak. They're not good for anything.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

Gary: Is killing trees against the law?
John: Well, the lumber company can't cut 'em down unless they dead, and so the lumber company hire us to come in and poison the trees so we can kill 'em and they'll come in and die theyself. Yeah, I've been doing this for a little minute now. Welcome to the program.

...

[repeated line]
Willie-Russell: I went through a windshield at 4 o'clock one morning and I don't give a fuck.

...

Sammy: Who these white folks you got working?
Joe: Yeah, I'm not sure. They need work and I need help. Young, old, black, white, red, yellow. I really don't give a shit, Sammy.

...

Mother: He loves us. Just...He just goes through a hard time.
Gary: Well, I ain't gonna watch him sit there and hit you like he hits me, you hear me? Okay, Mama? Ain't supposed to do that to no one.
Mother: You stay with your family. That's what you need to do. You need to stay with your family. Your family's all you got.

...

Joe: Hey, there you go. You look like a million bucks. You feel better now?
Gary [wearing some of Joe's clothes]: I fell like a hundred bucks.

...

Connie: What are you thinking, Joe?
Joe: Nothing. There's nothing I can do and I hate it.
Connie: That's not true.
Joe: Yeah, it is. You look at me like I can make a move. What are you thinking when you look at me like that? Don't you care? I don't know who I am, but I know what keeps me alive is restraint. Keeps me out of jail. Keeps me from hurting people. A mark of some fucked-up faith that there's a reason. A reason for all of this. A reason in most moments I shouldn't do what I wanna do. I do as I'm told. These men who bust their asses work like dogs - and I believe in them - but every day they hurt. They get old, they peel back... There's no frontier anymore. And I watch that boy, and I see someone who's... nothing like me, but... he's a child folks left behind. And he's on a fence, balanced right there.
Connie: What do you want? What is it you want?
Joe: Nothing.
Connie: Just tell me what I can do. I like you.
Joe: I like you, too, but what's the point in any of it? Fuck to this day. I mean, fuck to this day. It's all just gonna boil up and wash us away. Maybe you'll still be here. Maybe you won't.

...

Joe [with a busted beer bottle to Willie-Russel's face]: Christy, call the cops 'fore somebody gets killed. Would you do that for me, honey?

...

Joe [to Gary as they pass cops on the highway]: Don't look at them. Don't wave to them, 'cause they think you're guilty of something when you wave. A cop can mess you up if he wants to.

...

Joe: My dog is about 100 pounds, brown and white, looks like a cow.
Town Woman: Looks like a cow?
Joe: Right.
Town Woman: You have a dog that looks like a cow?
Joe: Well, it's not that big a deal. A lot of dogs look like cows.

...

Joe: Ah, the dog likes you.
Gary: She has a lot of scars.
Joe: Yeah, but all the others...all the others is dead.

...

Joe: Gary, why do you stick around like this? You're old enough, smart enough to do your own thing.
Gary: What's most important right now is me taking care of Dorothy and Mama, 'cause... we kind of got a family problem right now.
[his sister Dorothy stares out the window vacantly at them]
Joe: Hey there. Hey now. Don't talk much, does she?
Gary: She don't talk at all.
Joe: What do you mean?
Gary: I don't know. Nobody knows. She just stopped one day.

We can guess why.

Earl: Let me ask you a question, Joe, 'cause I really wanna know. Why you wanna go back? Why you wanna go back to the damn penitentiary, man? 'Cause you can't keep going to folks' houses, killin' their dogs, no matter what else is goin' on. And you can't keep fist-fightin' the law. Judge won't put up with it. He don't have to put up with it. That's why they built prisons.

...

Earl: I haven't mistreated you, Joe. Have I? Tell the truth.
Joe: No, Earl. You stuck up for me when you could.
Earl: And I used to be as bad as you.
Joe: At one time, you were worse.

...

Joe [looking at Gary's beaten up face]: Oh, shit. What happened?
Gary: I need to borrow the truck.
Joe: What happened to you?
Gary: I'm gonna kill him. I'm gonna kill that old son of a bitch. You think I won't, but I will. And I'ma get mine back. I just need to borrow that truck.

...

Joe: I should have given you a boxing lesson.
Gary: I don't need no goddamn boxing lesson. I know what to do. I'll pop him right in the eye. He whupped my ass and threw me out of the truck 'cause he knew that I were gonna kill him! I can kill his ass. I can kill him just as good as you could.
Joe: I know you could, I know you could. I know it. But you don't have to do that. Okay, son? Just stay here with me. You'll be safe here. Bring your mama and your sister.
Gary: He gots Dorothy. He done run off with her. He met up with some bad men. I heard him talking about it. That man with the scarred-up face...the one that I beat down by the bridge? He been looking for me for what I done did to him. She don't hurt nobody, Joe. Should have been me.
Joe: Do you know where they took her? Gary...tell me.

...

Willie-Russell [to Dorothy]: Hi. Hi. How you doing? You okay? Huh? Tell me something. You like funny faces?

...

Farmer: Then, if everything goes good on that acreage, I'll have you help me supervise the Manea project next summer. Old bastards can be hard to work for sometimes, but, hell, if you worked for Joe, I think you'll do just fine. You got any questions?
Gary: No, sir. When can I start?
Farmer: Right now, if you're ready.
Gary: Yes, sir.
[extends his hand to shake]
Gary: So, you knew Joe?
Farmer: Yeah, sure did. Joe's a good man. Good man to me, anyways.
Gary: He was a good man to me, too.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

"Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens

iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

Imagine this: You are going about the business of living your grim, humdrum life [you're a history professor] when out of the blue you spot yourself playing a bit part in a movie. Your doppelgänger. And, even if only in your head, you've got to find him. You do. But then things start to become, well, chaotic.

So, is there perhaps a method to the madness here? One that has simply not yet been discovered? And yet what can we really control when there are so many possible permutations "out in the world" -- given all of the vast and varied ways in which our lives can come together. And/or fall apart. And that's just in regard to the conscious mind. Once the subconscious mind becomes a part of it, all bets are truly off.

But then how much of this is meant to be taken literally? It may well just be a surreal, allegorical romp that prompts you to think about 1] who you are and 2] how you came to be that way.

Which, basically, is what I do.

And it clearly seems intent on conveying insights [however recondite] into the roles that men and women embody in the ever turbulent quagmire that are "relationships".

As for the ending [related of course to "what's it all mean"?], here's one take on it:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/201 ... denis.html

IMDb

The cast signed a confidentiality agreement that doesn't allow them to speak and/or explain to the press the meaning of spiders in the movie.

While no explanation was given for the presence of spiders, it has been analyzed by many people that they represent as Adam/Anthony's weakness to women, making him less dominant.

at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_(2013_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/FJuaAWrgoUY

ENEMY [2013]
Directed by Denis Villeneuve

Title Card: Chaos is order yet undeciphered.

...

Adam [to the class]: Control, it's all about control. Every dictatorship has one obsession and that's it. In ancient Rome they gave the people bread and circuses. They kept population busy with entertainment but other dictatorships used other strategies to control ideas, the knowledge... how do they do that? Lower education, they limit culture, censor information, they censor any means of individual expression and is important to remember this, that this is a pattern, that repeats itself throughout history.

And we are certainly no exception, are we?

Mary: Wanna go to bed?
Mary: Want to go to bed?
Adam: No, I'm gonna finish up grading these papers, and then I'll come join you, okay?

Talk about living in a world of words...

Adam [to the class]: Last class we talked about dictatorships, so today we'll start with Hegel. It was Hegel who said all the great world events happen twice. And then Karl Marx added... the first time it was a tragedy, the second time a farce.
It's strange to think a lot of the world thinkers are worried that this century will be a repetition of the last one.

So: How is all of this "academic" stuff relevant here? If it is relevant at all.

Anthony: Hello? Hello, this is Anthony...
Adam: This is Anthony Claire isn't it?!
Anthony: Who's calling?
Adam: Um, I called before. I talked with your wife. It's crazy.
Anthony: You're the one! If you call here again, I will call the police.
Adam: No, no, wait, listen to me... Can you say something...keep talking!
Anthony: Who is this?
Adam: That's crazy. That's amazing. Your voice is just like mine...do you hear my voice? Your voice is just like mine.
[Anthony hangs up]

...

Anthony [on phone]: Listen...
Adam: Please, please just listen to me for a second! Just listen, just hear me out. I know this sounds crazy... I'm sorry I got excited before and I acted a little strange. Just hear me out for a second. I've seen three of your movies...and you're great in them. You looked exactly alike. I called your wife earlier today and she said that she thought I was you. I'm just...I'm confused...and I know that this call is is just as confusing to you as it is for me. My name is Adam Bell, I'm a history teacher... and I just think that we should meet.
Anthony: Okay, okay, listen to me. Never call here again.

...

Helen: You're messing with me. Right? Anthony! Who was on the phone?
Anthony: Helen, the same guy who called before. The same guy. That's who was on the phone. I told you that. Why would I sell you any differently?
Helen: Are you lying to me? You're lying to me.
Anthony: You're acting crazy.
Helen: I'm not crazy! Who was on the phone!?
Anthony: I told you that it was a man who was on the phone.
Helen: Are you seeing her?
Anthony: Helen, I don't wanna get into this.
Helen: Are you seeing her again?!

...

Helen: I went to see that guy.
Anthony: Who? What are you talking about?
Helen: That guy on the phone. I went to his work.
Anthony: Why did you do that? That's dangerous, honey.
Helen: I wanted to know. He had the same voice. He looks exactly like you.
Anthony: What do you mean exactly like me?
Helen: What's happening?
Anthony [after a long pause]: I really don't know what you're talking about.
Helen: I think you know. I think you know.

...

Anthony: Show me your hands, man.
Anthony: C'mon, show me your hands!
Anthony: Maybe we're brothers.
Anthony: How do you know? Do you have a...do you have a scar on...on your chest? Like this one? You do, don't you!

...

Mother: There must be some difference.
Mother: You cannot be exactly the same.
Mother: Did you take your clothes off in front of him?
Mother: Okay then. The last thing you need is meeting strange men in hotel rooms. You already have enough trouble sticking with one woman, don't you?

...

Mother [to Adam]: You are my only son. I am your only mother. You have a respectable job. You have a nice apartment. And since we're being frank here...I think you should quit that fantasy of being a third rate movie actor.

...

Anthony: Can I ask you something just man to man? Did you sleep with my wife?
Anthony: Did you fuck my wife?
Anthony: Answer the question, man. Answer my fucking question and then I will leave.
Anthony: Alright. I'm fucking crazy? I'm fucking crazy? I AM FUCKING CRAZY!! Now, you brought my wife into this man. So I'm gonna bring your girlfriend into the picture as well. You want me out of your life? This is what's gonna happen first. Your gonna give me your clothes and your car... I'm gonna take your girlfriend on a little romantic getaway. I'm gonna bring her back home tomorrow...and then I'm gonna come back here and I'm gonna bring back your stuff... and then I'm gonna disappear from
your life...forever. Then we will be even.

Then it all more or less collapses into your guess is as good as mine.

Adam/Anthony: Helen, did you plan on doing something tonight? Because I think I have to go out. Helen? Helen?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

"Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens

iambiguous
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Posts: 37240
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

I've always enjoyed films centered around the confidence game.

The best ones generally revolve around con men conning other con men. This one doesn't quite go there, but the bastard they do scam is such a slimeball you are particularly pleased watching them rub his nose in it. Or I sure as shit was.

In other words, these are grifters you can love. They basically only take those who deserve to be taken. Or the greedy bastards that end up being hoisted by their own petards. Besides, in their own way, these types are on the grift too. Only sometimes what they do is perfectly legal.

Plus it's always fun trying to figure out just how many different scams are actually going on [the scams within the scams], who is involved in which ones and who you're convinced are not involved in any of them. Only it turns out that they are. Who can you trust? In this world you're never far removed from asking yourself that.

And almost all grifters are true "characters". They live off the beaten path, playing [more or less] by their own rules. You either wish you could be them or considerably more like them.

Look for the mother of all jinxes.

IMDb

The plot to this movie shares a number of similarities to perhaps the most famous heist movie of all time, The Sting.

at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_(2003_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/6-AeSFk_wPY

CONFIDENCE [2003]
Directed by James Foley

Big Al: Hey, Jake, when do I get to play the inside?
Jake: Gordo plays the inside. You are the shill, you know that.
Big Al: Yeah, but come on, all I do is cry and get insulted here.
Jake: What are you talking about? You should get a fucking Academy Award for the shill work you do.

...

Jake [to the camera]: It doesn't matter what the con is. Insider trading, a line we got at a bookie club, insurance scam, whatever. You've seen the money and you want it. More of it. So who cares if you have to bend the rules a little bit? As long as nobody gets hurt. But then somebody does.

...

Jake [to the camera]: Tommy Suits always said, "A confidence game is like putting on a play, where everyone knows their part. The inside man, the roper, the shills, everyone, that is, except for the mark."

...

Jake [to the camera]: So now you're an accomplice in a homicide. Everything you thought you were in control of, just flew out the window, or is dripping down your leg. You should be running out the door, desperate to forget that this ever happened, and ready to repent your greedy ways. What about the money? Then there it is again, that itch. There's a guy standing in front of you with a smoking gun, another guy on the floor bleeding all over the place, and all you can do is think about the money. You're a sick twisted fuck. So we gotta make sure we give you the blow off. We have to make sure that you never ever come looking for us again. We have to get you off of our backs, forever. That's why we give you the fix.

...

Jake voiceover]: Money. It can make you think you're on top of the world. And if you believe that money can do all that for you, you are the perfect mark.

...

Jake [voiceover]: Wasn't it Jack Kerouac who said, "If you own a rug, you own too much." I don't necessarily like Kerouac, and driving cross-country isn't my idea of a good time, but the guy's got a point. If you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose. But when it comes to money, whether it's finding it or losing it, you just have to remember how much of it is just luck. Just dumb fucking luck.

...

King [describing how he got shot in a white suit]: We're checking our fingers and toes and we discover I got shot. I was the only one who got shot. You know why? White suit. I was the first one they saw, I was the first one they shot at, I was the first one they hit. You know what I learned that day?
Jake: Not to wear white after Labor Day?
King: No. Sometimes, Jake, style can get you killed.

...

King: You're a good grifter, man. It's hard to tell when you're lying.

...

Jake: This is Lily. She's the new shill I was telling you about.
Gordo: Whoa. Gordo: Whoa, whoa, whoa... Hold the fucking phone, what is this? Are we playing a con, or are we doing a rendition of "Our Town"?
Jake: Gordo, trust me. We need the help on this one.

...

Jake: What do you fucking suggest, Miles? You wanna run?
Miles: We never had a problem with that, before.
Jake: We never had a fucking problem like this before.
Miles: Yes, we have, okay? And we would have been beautiful about it. We would have had a bucket of fried chicken, delivered to the King with a nice Kiss My Ass card attached to it, and we would have moved on until the next local putz caught on.
Jake: We're getting too old to run, Miles.
Miles: Yeah well, we're still a little too young for San Quentin. Look, I'm... I mean, are you pissed off about Al? Look at me. Trust me, I'm pissed too. But I'm not 25-to-life pissed.

...

Jake [of Leon Ashby]: What you're looking for in a mark is someone who has nothing to lose. No friends. No family. No life. You're looking for a guy who doesn't own a rug.

...

Lily: I get the feeling you could've bullshitted your way into anything. Why this?
Jake: I'm good at it. Lying, cheating, manipulating. It all came very naturally to me.
Lily: No, it's more than that.
Jake: The thrill of it? I mean, didn't you find it exciting tonight? The way you were working that guy Ashby... flirting, giving him your sweet little smile, brushing up against him, occasionally touching him, I have a feeling you were getting off on that tonight.
Lily: All I did was smile and shake my ass.
Jake: Yeah, but you did it very well.

...

Jake [voiceover]: They say a good chess player can see up to 20 moves deep. That means in some games you've calculated every move in your head. The game's over, even before it's really started. Like a game of chess, same with a con. You have to see that deep.

...

Jake [voiceover]: We called them the green Twinkies.

...

Jake [voiceover]: So I'm dead. But can I really blame Lily? Should I just have trusted her? Who knows? Sooner or later, someone's gonna start asking the right questions. The Feds would want to know why were they sent in to just bust a couple of crooked cops. Manzano and Whitworth would ask how the drugs got into that duffel bag. The King and Price would ask, where their money really went. And everyone would ask, what agency was it that Special Agent Gunther Bhutan really worked for?

Take a wild guess.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

"Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 37240
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Water wars. In particular, this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Cochabamba_protests

Some say it's the future. And not just in California. Though the continuing drought there generally gets all the press here in America. Instead, these conflicts will sprout up more increasingly across the globe. Some link it to global warming. Others link it to climate change in general.

The perils of imperialism. And the profits. And here it goes all the way back to Christopher Columbus. So basically we get to observe just how imperialism is able to link the present with the past; and how in attempting to shed light on it you can find yourself smack dab in the middle of its [still] brutal legacy.

Yes, there actually are people who think of "imperialism" as something that happened way back then. Way back in history sometime. When of course the rich and the powerful still sustain it in any number of ways today. You don't have to enslave people to be imperialists.

Here though one might be idealistic about all of this [Sebastin] or one might be cynical [Costa]. Along the way however they tend to shift back and forth. It just depends on what is actually at stake.

Or [sure] one might just leave it all in the hands of God.

Look for crony capitalism in its most blatant and flagrant form. Only rarely does it go that far in the more "civilized" nations today. It doesn't have to. In part because the citizens are themselves just plain cowed.

This film was dedicated to the memory of Howard Zinn, who had much to say about the legacy of imperialism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Zinn

IMDb

The scene where the little girl sees herself on screen was kind of a self homage by director/actress Icíar Bollaín. She wanted to transmit her first impression when she saw herself on screen being a teenager.

at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Even_the_Rain
trailer: https://youtu.be/3JKs8aSb7eo

EVEN THE RAIN [También la Iluvia] 2010
Directed by Icíar Bollaín

Costa: We'll just see the ones here. The rest can leave.
Sebastin: No, Costa, wait, we can't do that.
Costa: Shit, we can't see them all, Sebastin. If you prefer, pick the ones you like and get rid of the rest. But do it now! Come on. Come on. Come on. Choose the ones you like.

...

Costa [after the people in line refuse to leave]: What's wrong?
Daniel [holding up a flyer]: "Everyone gets a chance." That's what it says. And my girl wants to act.
Costa: Yeah, her and 200 others...but we can't see them all, understand?
Daniel: You don't understand, white face. We've been waiting for hours. Some have come from very far on foot. Now you tell us to leave. You have to see all of us. We're not leaving until you see us all. We're not moving from here!

And all to get $2 a day. Maria: Sebastin, tell me something. We're in Bolivia. It doesn't make much sense. Because we're 7,500 feet above sea level, surrounded by mountains, and thousands of miles from the Caribbean. Sebastin: Well, Costa thinks Columbus landed by parachute. Costa: No, Costa knows this place is full of starving natives, and that means thousands of extras. ... Sebastin: No, Costa, no. This could be a mess, really. Have you seen their faces? Please, they're Quechua. Costa: So? Sebastin: What do you mean, "so?" They're from the Andes! What's Columbus doing with natives from the Andes? Costa: From the Andes or wherever, they're natives. They're all the same. Sebastin: No. Costa: You can negotiate things here -- hotels, transport, catering, whatever. Maria: So, it's about money. Costa: Yes, yes! It's always money, always, always. Well, in this case, very little money, right? ... Anton [playing Christopher Columbus]: I, Christopher Columbus, humble servant of King Ferdinand of Aragon and Queen Isabella of Castile, in the name of Jesus Christ, Son of the one true God, take possession of these lands and seas and all they contain. And with this act I proclaim sovereignty over these lands and seas on behalf of their most gracious Majesties. ... Anton [playing Columbus to a member of his crew]: Mingle with them. The first man to find gold will be rewarded. Captain...treat them well. We need their food. And find out what arms they have. ... Admiral [in the film]: I spoke personally with their Majesties, who instructed me to treat you with respect and cordiality. We ask that you recognize the Church and the Pope as rulers of the universe. And also that you accept the King and the Queen of Spain as rulers of these lands. In exchange, you will receive our love and our charity. Native: And if we do not? Admiral: Captain... Captain: If not we will enslave you and dispose of you as we wish. We will seize your possessions and we will do you as much harm as we can. Native: What do you want from us? Captain: Taxes. Gold, in other words. Maria: Alberto, can you tell us about your character? Alberto: Well, my character is Bartolome de las Casas. He came to the lndies when he was 18 to take charge of a plantation and the Indian slaves who worked there. But later, traumatized by the massacres he witnessed, he devoted his life to the Indians. He became a Dominican. He was nearly murdered twice. On his deathbed -- and I'm quoting verbatim. Don't laugh, listen. He said, "I condemn the blindness of those who ignore the genocide and give orders to the world". This guy was the father of international law, and I'm only in eight scenes! ... Anton: He never, Beto. Christopher Columbus never questioned Spanish authority over the New World or royal authority. In other words, he was a conservative. Beto: He was a radical! A radical! He demanded that Indians be treated equally as Spaniards! Anton: Under the Crown! Beto: But with the Indians' consent. He was ahead of his time. Costa: How the fuck did Disney pass on this? ... Village woman [to the company cops]: What are you doing to the well? We dug this well with our own hands so our children could drink. You've got no right to close the well! How can we live with dirty water? You take our lands, you take our wells. Are you going to take the air, too? ... Priest [acting in the film]: The Pharisees sent someone to ask John the Baptist who he was. And he replied, "I am a voice crying in the wilderness." The Indians mine the gold which builds our cities and even our churches. Gold finances our conquests in far distant parts and so the great wheel of commerce turns. Not one of us is untouched by Indian sweat, least of all His Majesty and his bishops! ... Priest [in film]: The truth has many enemies. The lie has many friends. ... Daniel [at a political rally against the privatization of the nation's water supply]: They sell our rivers against our will. They sell our wells, our lakes and even the rain that falls on our heads! By law! Friends, it's incredible! They don't allow us to collect the water that falls from the rain, by law! And who takes even the rain? A company whose owners are in London and California. Friends, what are they going to steal next? The vapor from our breath? The sweat from our brow? All they get from me is piss!! ... Maria: Costa, they say that they want to mobilize thousands. Costa: So? Maria: From the countryside...from the city, the unions. People are furious. Imagine a documentary about this. Costa, let me do it. Costa: No, I'm not spending another penny. Maria: Costa, they're going to raise hell. And if we don't tell the story, we're going to let a great chance escape. Costa: I said no! I'm not a fucking NGO! This story has nothing to do with me. ... Costa: Daniel, we're going to make a fantastic film, you'll see. No, really. Sebastin is preparing some amazing scenes -- hundreds of guys in the ravine panning for gold. Daniel [parroting back Costas on the phone in English]: "Fucking epic, and you're there! You're there, man! What? Two fucking dollars, right? And they're happy." ... Sebestin [explaining the scene to the native actors]: It's a horrific choice...heartbreaking. You can't bear the idea that the dogs will eat the babies. We'll see you talking to Hatuey and how you understand that there's no other solution, that you have to make this decision and you have to make it together to give each other courage. So you'll take the babies.....slowly, wade into the river, put them in the water, and drown them. Daniel: They won't do it. Sebastin: Look, I know it's difficult, but we have to get them to do it. We need it for the film... Daniel: Sebastin, they can't even imagine the idea of doing it. Sebastin: I'm not making this up. It's what happened. We have to show it. It's important for the film. Please. Daniel: Sebastin, some things are more important than your film. ... Man [to government official]: They're burning the water bills. Government official: Excuse me, a little domestic row. Nothing for you to worry about. Don't worry. Man: "Let them eat cake," as Marie Antoinette said. It's only an excuse for some fanatics to stir up the desperate and gain a name for themselves. Sebastin: Forgive me for saying so, but I think their demands are reasonable. Government official: Perhaps if you were better informed...We're a country with few resources. It's hard to maintain a water supply without major foreign investment. These people think that government money grows on trees. Very good. Given their long history of exploitation, Indians' distrust is embedded in their genes. It's very difficult to reason with them, especially when they're illiterate. But that's how it is. We have objective reports from Harvard professors, the IMF... Man: I'd love to see those bastards feed their families on 40 fucking dollars a month! Government official: Anyway, in this globalized world... ... Costa [after Daniel has been beaten up at the demonstration]: Can no one else do this water stuff? Are you listening? Ah... playing the silent, dignified Indian? Fucking great. [pause] Costa: If we catch you at another demonstration, you won't get a fucking penny. Is that clear? [Daniel says nothing...just stares at him] Costas: I'll tell you what. We'll give you an extra$5,000 if you stay away from demonstration until we're finished. Okay? What? Forgive me, it's beneath you? Or not enough? Eh, Daniel? Not enough? $8,000?$10,000? $10,000, Daniel,$10,000. $10,000. Half now, half when we finish! You've never seen so much money in your life! It's your only fucking chance to get out of this shithole where you live, and you're smart enough to see that! Or not? He takes the money. But that's all he does. Sebastin: What if he's beaten up when he comes back? If he's tortured, killed, or disappeared? These bastards can do anything. I don't want that on my conscience. Costa: But he's in jail already! We didn't put him there. And the bastard tricked us. Without the scene, there's no film. You fucking know that. Sebastin: Okay, but we tip him off. ... Costa: Daniel? You promised me. We made a deal. You broke your word. Daniel: Water is life. You don't understand. ... Priest [in film]: I beg you, Commander. This will turn the Indians against us for generations. The Crown will prosecute you! Commander: I doubt it, Father. Priest: This isn't Christian! Commander: Choose 13, and the rest go free. One for each disciple and one for Christ Himself! Want to choose them, Father? Priest: This is a sacrilege. Commander: No, Father. It's an example. ... Costa: I'm taking Belen to the hospital. Sebastin: No, no, you're crazy! No, Costa, listen to me! This confrontation is going to end, and it'll be forgotten. But our film is going to last forever. Please, come with us. If anything happens to you, we're all fucked! Costa: Listen to me for once in your life! If anything happens to that child, I'll never forgive myself. Sebastin: The army is on its way! They'll crush everyone! You too! Costa: I can't leave the child there! I can't leave her there. Help me out, man, please. Sebastin: Fuck!! Costa: Help me, Sebastin, please! You go with the crew. I just can't leave that child. I can't. ... TV reporter: The army is firing with live ammo! I've seen a dozen drop, but the demonstrators still charge. Rocks against bullets! ... Costsa [showing Daniel a news story]: You're in the news everywhere. "Multinational pulls out of Bolivia after water war." That's you. Daniel: It always costs us dear. It's never easy. I wish there was another way. But there's not. And the toughest bit is still to come. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 "Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 37240 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film A boy named Sue? Hell, what if everyone you knew called you 1900? If nothing else this film shows us just how far a "sense of identity" can be stretched given a particularly unique set of circumcstances. Simply imagine yourself having been brought into the world and raised as he was. What would be the odds that you would construe "reality" in the manner in which you do now? 1900. His momma just abandoned him. Put him in a cradle and left it sitting on top of a ship's piano. The year was 1900. And he is raised in the ship's engine room smack dab in the belly of the working class beast. Talk about a truly unique point of view. One can almost [but not quite] imagine this as a true story. But the film works best as an attempt to capture the manner in which any one of us might find ourself in a situation so extraordinary that we ourselves grow up to be extraordinary in turn. Only [let's be honest] that almost never really happens at all. But at least it allows us to imagine how it might. And yet even when it does one era gives way to the next and it becomes increasingly more difficult for the translations to be made. What must it be like though to live in your own little world? To be able to? And then the part about "the philosophy of the ocean" and "the philosophy of the land". How in opposition they can be. Either literally or metaphorically. I've never lived on the water myself so a lot of that simply escapes me. Look for the dude from The Mod Squad. Oh, and the power of music. And [as some folks might insist] the racism. IMDb Tim Roth cannot, in fact, play the piano. He trained for six months to be able to "fake it" for the film. Exterior shots of the ship are the inspired blueprints of the SS Lusitania and her sister ship the SS Mauritania. The ballroom in which 1900 plays his piano in had a dome similar to the dome the SS Mauritania had in her ballroom during the transatlantic period. at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_1900 trailer: https://youtu.be/LA8v9MamhJE THE LEGEND OF 1900 [La Leggenda del Pianista Sull'Oceano] 1998 Written in part and directed by Giuseppe Tornatore Max [voiceover]: I still ask myself if I did the right thing when I abandoned his floating city. And I don't mean only for the work. The fact is, a friend like that, a real friend - you won't meet one again. If you just decide to hang up your sea legs, if you just want to feel something more solid beneath your feet - and it's then you no longer hear the music of the gods around you. But, like he used to say, you're never really done for, as long as you got a good story, and someone to tell it to. Trouble is, nobody'd believe a single word of my story. ... Max [on the deck of the ship]: It happened every time. Someone would look up, and see her. It's difficult to understand. There'd be more than a thousand of us on that ship, traveling rich folks, immigrants, and strange people, and us; yet there was always one, one guy alone, who would see her first. Maybe he was just sitting there eating, or walking on the deck, maybe he was just fixing his pants. He'd look up for a second, a quick glance out to sea, and he'd see her. Then he'd just stand there, rooted to the spot, his heart racing. And every time, every damn time I swear, he'd turn to us, towards the ship, towards everybody, and scream. Passenger: [pointing] America! Lady Liberty? You bet. Let's just call this the idealized rendition of the American immigrant. Danny: If my sons grow up to be a lawyer, I swear I'll kill him myself. ... Danny [to the engine room crew]: I found him the first month of the first year of this frigging new century. So I calls him, Ninteen Hundred. ... Max [to Pops the music shop proprietor]: The problem was, as far as the world was concerned, he didn't even exist....He was eight years old, but officially, he had never even been born. ... Ship captain [as 1900 plays the piano]: 1900, all of this is quite against the regulations. 1900 [at 8]: Fuck the regulations. ... Max: What the hell do you think about when you're playing? Where does your mind go when you hit the keys? 1900: Last night I was in a beautiful country. Women had perfume in their hair, everything glowed. It was full of tides. Max [voiceover]: He traveled. And each time he ended up some place different. In the heart of London, on a train in the middle of the country, on the edge of a giant volcano, in the biggest church in the world, countin' the columns and staring up at the crucifixes. He traveled. ... 1900 [to Max who wonders why he never leaves the ship]: I think land people waste a lot of time wondering why. Winter comes and can't wait for summer, summer comes and you never can wait for winter. That's why you never tire of traveling or chasing some place far away, where it's always summer. Doesn't sound like a good bet to me. ... Italian Immigrant [to 1900]: The voice of the sea, it is like a shout, a shout big and strong, screaming and screaming. And the thing it was screaming was, yoooou... with shit instead of brains... life is immense... can you understand that? Immense. ... [Repeated line] Band musician: End of the line! ... Jelly Roll Morton [enters the hall for the duel, meeting 1900 for the first time]: I believe you're sitting in my seat. 1900 [stands, good-naturedly]: You're the one that invented jazz, right? Jelly Roll Morton: That's what they say. And you're the one who can't play without the ocean under his ass, right? 1900: That's what they say. [moves to shake hands, but gets snubbed] ... Jelly Roll Morton [to 1900]: Your turn...sailor. ... Jelly Roll Morton [before starting his last piece in the duel--to 1900]: You can stick this up your ass. 1900 [before starting his last piece of the duel-to Jelly Roll Morton]: You asked for it, asshole. ... 1900: Hey, Max, gimme a cigarette, will you? Max [bitterly]: You're not handling this well. 1900 [calmly]: Just gimme a cigarette. Max: You don't smoke. What is the matter with you? You could lick this guy with one hand, come on! 1900 [getting agitated]: You gonna gimme a cigarette? Max [emphatically]: We're gonna be chucking coal a couple a hundred years and all you can say is... 1900: Give me a fucking cigarette, will you?! ... 1900 [watching Jelly Roll Morton leave the ship]: And fuck jazz, too. ... 1900: It's like a big scream, telling you that life is immense. Once you've finally heard it, then you really know what you have to do to go on living. I can't stay here forever. The ocean would never tell me a thing. But if I get off, live on land for a couple of years, then I'll be normal, just like the others. And then maybe one day, I'll make it to the coast, look up, see the ocean, and hear it's scream. ... Max [voiceover]: I often thought about him during the war; if only 1900 were here, who knows what he'd do, what he'd say. 'Fuck war' he'd say. But somehow, coming from me, it wasn't the same thing. ... 1900 [explaining to Max why he didn't leave the ship and never will]: All that city... You just couldn't see an end to it. The end! Please, could you show me where it ends? It was all very fine on that gangway and I was grand, too, in my overcoat. I cut quite a figure and I had no doubts about getting off. Guaranteed. That wasn't a problem. It wasn't what I saw that stopped me, Max. It was what I didn't see. Can you understand that? What I didn't see. In all that sprawling city, there was everything except an end. There was everything. But there wasn't an end. What I couldn't see was where all that came to an end. The end of the world. Take a piano. The keys begin, the keys end. You know there are 88 of them and no-one can tell you differently. They are not infinite, you are infinite. And on those 88 keys the music that you can make is infinite. I like that. That I can live by. But you get me up on that gangway and roll out a keyboard with millions of keys, and that's the truth, there's no end to them, that keyboard is infinite. But if that keyboard is infinite there's no music you can play. You're sitting on the wrong bench. That's God's piano. Christ, did you see the streets? There were thousands of them! How do you choose just one? One woman, one house, one piece of land to call your own, one landscape to look at, one way to die. All that world weighing down on you without you knowing where it ends. Aren't you scared of just breaking apart just thinking about it, the enormity of living in it? I was born on this ship. The world passed me by, but two thousand people at a time. And there were wishes here, but never more than could fit on a ship, between prow and stern. You played out your happiness on a piano that was not infinite. I learned to live that way. Land is a ship too big for me. It's a woman too beautiful. It's a voyage too long. Perfume too strong. It's music I don't know how to make. I can't get off this ship. At best, I can step off my life. After all, it's as though I never existed. You're the exception, Max. You're the only one who knows that I'm here. You're a minority. You'd better get used to it. Forgive me, my friend. But I'm not getting off. ... Max: Oh, you can get off the ship alright, but the ocean? ... Pops [returning Max's pawned trumpet]: A good story's worth more than an old trumpet. Max: Okay, Pops. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 "Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 37240 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film Poker. You can play the game every now and then for no particular reason. Or you can live and breathe it. You can pursue it literally as a full time job. A professionial poker player that makes the rounds. And then he makes the rounds again. And again and again. In fact I watched a documentary on the game a couple of weeks ago. This one: https://youtu.be/56gax2hNHtA The movie Rounders features prominantly. This movie in other words. I have played a lot of poker in my life. Especially in the Army. And in college. But never once did I ever imagine pursuing it beyond the pleasant distraction that it was. These guys are on a whole other level altogether. And then there are those who go far beyond the game itself. Intead it is the part about gambling they become addicted to. Poker just happens to be their game of choice. What makes poker so fascinating for some is the way in which it intertwines skill with luck. You have to have the cards. Only sometimes you don't. And that's why it's often the same people that end up at the final tables in most of the big tournaments. Of course the part about gambling means the part about those who do things under the table. And it may or may not be connected to mobsters. And then there's this: to cheat or not to cheat. One thing you can bet on here is the ending. Only from the very beginning I was actually betting against it. Look for the parts that are anything but, say, glamorous. And that part about the juice. IMDb Matt Damon and Edward Norton played the$10,000 buy-in Texas Hold 'Em championship event at the 1998 World Series of Poker in Las Vegas. During the first of four days, Matt Damon had pocket Kings and was knocked out by former world champion and poker legend Doyle Brunson who held pocket Aces.

According to a Howard Stern Interview, the film is partially based on comedian/actor Norm MacDonald.

Despite the rise in No Limit Texas Hold'em interest in conjunction with this film's release, the characters play a wide variety of poker variants: No Limit Hold'em is played with Teddy KGB at the beginning and end of the film, the Judge's game is a 7 card Stud game, the College Boys are playing Stud variants (notably Chicago), when Worm and Mike go the Chesterfield the first time the game is Forced Rotation (alternating hands of Hold'em, Omaha, Razz, Stud usually), Worm plays 7 card Stud later at the Chesterfield, the Taj Mahal game is Limit Hold'em, the Union game is a Draw or Stud game, Mike plays Draw or Stud (it appears in the short scene)with the Greeks, the Cigar Club game is 7 card Stud Hi-Lo, the Golf pro game is a Pot Limit Omaha/Stud game, and the State police game is 7 card Stud. By the way all the games played are part of the World Series of Poker competition (though the main event is No Limit Texas Hold'em)

IMDb FAQ: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0128442/faq?ref_=tt_faq_sm
at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rounders_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/-Qv4K-4-FZM

ROUNDERS [1998]
Directed by John Dahl

Mike [voiceover]: Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you are the sucker.

...

Mike [voiceover]: Guys around here'll tell ya...you play for a living. It's like any other job. You don't gamble. You grind it out. Your goal is to win one big bet an hour, that's it. Get your money in when you have the best of it, and protect it when you don't. Don't give anything away. That's how I've paid my way through half of law school. A true grinder. See, I learned how to win a little at a time. But finally, I've learned this... If you're too careful, your whole life can become a fuckin' grind.

...

Mike [voiceover]: This is Teddy KGB's place. You won't find it in the Yellow Pages.

...

Lou: I got $3,000 for the food truck stabbings. Nina: There were more dead. Lou: Those were poor Mexican people in a roach coach. Two of them were illegal. These are three wealthy white people, shot and killed in their mansion. Including a suburban housewife shotgunned in her bed. ... Lou: Now I like you, Nina. And I look forward to our time together. But you have to understand, fifteen thousand isn't all that I want. From here on, starting now, I want my work to be credited by the anchors and on a burn. The name of my company is Video Production News, a professional news-gathering service. That's how it should be read and that's how it should be said. I also want to go to the next rung and meet your team, and the station manager, and the director, and the anchors, and start developing my own personal relationships. I'd like to start meeting them this morning. You'll take me around, you'll introduce me as the owner and president of Video Production News, and remind them of some of my many other stories. I'm not done. I also want to stop our discussion over prices. This will save time. So when I say that a particular number is my lowest price, that's my lowest price and you can be assured that I arrived at whatever that number is very carefully. Now, when I say that I want these things, I mean that I want them and I don't want to have to ask again. And the last thing that I want, Nina, is for you to do the things that I ask you to do when we're alone together in your apartment, not like last ime! So, I'll tell you what. I have the van crash on Moorpark tonight. It was a couple of stringers actually. That could lead by itself on an average night. I'd be willing to throw that in for free. So what do you say, do we have a deal? Oh yeah. Lou: I'm promoting you to executive Vice President of video news. Rick: What am I now? Lou: You're an assistant. Rick: Does it come with a raise? Lou: Absolutely. Rick: How much? Lou: Pick a number, you pick a number. Rick: Hundred...hundred...75 dollars a night. Lou: Agreed. Rick: Wait what about more? Lou: Not now, we closed the deal. Rick: I could have gotten more couldn't I? Lou: Absolutely. ... Rick: You got a seriously weird-ass way of looking at shit. You know you do. You just don't fucking understand people. [later...] Lou [to Rick]: What if my problem wasn't that I don't understand people but that I don't like them? What if I was the kind of person who was obliged to hurt you for this? I mean physically. I think you'd have to believe afterward, if you could, that agreeing to participate and then backing out at the critical moment was a mistake. Because that's what I'm telling you, as clearly as I can. ... Rick [dying...realizing that Lou set him up to be shot]: You saw him. You saw him! Lou: I can't jeopardize my company's success to retain an untrustworthy employee. Rick: You're crazy. You're crazy. Lou: You took my bargaining power Rick. You used it against me. You would've done it again. Just admit it. Rick: I don't know. I don't know. Lou: I know. I know. ... Detective: You filmed him dying. Lou: That's my job, that's what I do. I'd like to think if you're seeing me you're having the worst day of your life. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 "Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 37240 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film You watch this all unfold and you're thinking: Would legalizing dope make things better or worse? And yet we all know the part about how the crimes that are committed to manufacture the stuff [or even at times just to use it] would plummet significantly if the stuff was legal. But then without the "war on drugs" the prison industrial complex would all but collapse. At least here in America. This film is often touted for its realistic portrayal of the dope world. Especially the part where the belly of the dope beast meets the belly of the criminal underworld beast. But it was made nealy 20 years ago. So you can't but wonder if and how things have changed since then. And not just in Denmark. But let's face it: some thugs, gangsters, hoods, scumbags are more interesting than others. Not many like that here though. And, of course, some are more incompetent than others. And in this world incompetence [or just plain bad luck] can leave you up shits creek without a paddle. Sometimes without even a boat. Especially if you are just a little fish pissing off one of the sharks. Time to rob Peter to pay Paul. Let's make a deal. IMDb In a famous TV-interview with Nicolas Winding Refn and Kim Bodnia a reporter asked about research to make the film so realistic, the one thing the Winding Refn and Bodina had asked not to ask them about. The interview became thus very awkward. The interview appears on some DVDs. After the release of the film, rumors circulated that the actors took real drugs to make the movie more believable. The entire cast and crew have denied these rumors. In the scene, before Frank leaves Milo's bar, you can see a picture of Zeljko Raznatovic - Arkan on the wall. Arkan was a Serbian criminal and later a paramilitary leader, notable for organizing and leading a paramilitary force in the Yugoslav Wars. During Arkan's reign in racketeering business, wall calendars like this one (depicting himself, his wife or Red Star soccer club) were used to show that dues were payed. Zlatko Buric is originally from Croatia, but depicts a Serb in this movie. at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pusher_(1996_film) trailer: https://youtu.be/dLEaPB9UBWM Note: Some explicit dialog PUSHER [1996] Written in part and directed by Nicolas Winding Refn Frank: What the fuck is this? Brian: What does it look like? Frank: It's a gun. What's a gun doing here? [throws the gun to Tonny] Brian: Can I get it back? Frank: No, not right now. ... Tonny: I once ejaculated a girl in the face, and she wanted me to piss it off. Frank: Wait a minute, wait a minute. You ejaculated a girl in the face, and she wanted you to piss it off? Tonny: Yeah. Frank: Pervert! That's fucking sick! Tonny: It is not. Frank: It's fucking sick, man. Who was she? Tonny: Your mother. ... Frank: Why are we moving? Swede: It's safer this way. You got the stuff? Frank: You got the money? Swede: Let me see the stuff. Frank: The money first. Swede: Frank, the stuff first. Frank: The money. Swede: It's always the stuff first. Nope. First the cops. Frank: Christ, you guys know nothing. Cop: We don't know anything? What was it Tonny said? You do a lot of business with him? Look what I have here. A signed deposition from Tonny, your good buddy. ... Tonny: What's goin' on? What are you doin'? [Frank attacks him] Frank: What did you tell the cops? Tonny: What are you doin'? What the fuck are you doin'?! Frank: What did you tell the cops? Fuck you! [than he takes a baseball bat to him] ... Radovan [to Frank]: You gotta be on 'em 24 hours a day, always reminding them what they owe. For instance, there was this Turkish guy once. He fucked up and owed Milo some money. So I went over to his place. I'd been there many times before, asking for the money in a polite way, without any luck. Finally, I took a knife, stabbed it in his kneecap and tore the shit up. Sometimes, I'd like to have another job. Believe me. ... Radovan [threatening the junkie]: You got any idea how you're gonna raise the money? [the junkie shakes his head] Radovan [pulls out a shotgun and gives it to the junkie]: No? I got an idea. You go down to the bank and ask for the money. Frank: He can't rob a bank! Radovan: Of course he can. Anyone can rob a bank. Frank: He can't even hold that shotgun! Look at him, for Christ sake! Radovan: He can and he will! Frank: It's four o'clock, the banks are closed. Radovan [ignoring Frank]: He gets the money, problem solved. Frank: He can't do it, he's too scared. Radovan: Sure he can! Which bank? FRANK? Which bank? Frank: I don't care. Radovan [to the junkie] Which bank do you use? Junkie: The Amager Bank. Radovan: Not that one, then. It would be stupid to rob you're own bank. Frank: There's no other bank in this area. The Jyde Bank? Or how about... Radovan: The Jyde Bank is fine! Frank [after the junkie starts to threaten Frank and Radovan with the shotgun]: Take it easy! Junkie: Frank, for fuck sake! Radovan [he grabs the gun and beats the junkie]: You fucking dickhead! You don't got he balls for that! Even if you had shot one of us, the other would have blown out your brains! Fucking dickhead! Get up! GET UP! Junkie: Okay, okay. Just give me a line. I need some coke. Radovan: You'll get a line when I have my money. Frank: Come on, give him a line. Radovan: When I got my money! Then, he can have a line! [The junkie puts the shotgun in his mouth and shoots himself] ... Frank: What's wrong? Vic: Nothing. Frank: What did that photographer say to you? Vic: You really want to know? Frank: Yeah... Vic: He asked if I'd suck him off for 500. He thought I was a whore. Frank: Aren't you? Vic: I'm not a whore, I'm a champagne girl. Frank: Is it any different, getting fucked for 3,000 or 300? Vic: There's a big difference. ... Frank: Listen, I can't make it today. Milo: Come now, we can talk... Frank: I can't come today, okay? Milo: If you don't come tomorrow...with that 50, you won't be able to walk again. Okay? ... Vic: What are you watching? Frank: Just some stupid movie with Johnny Depp. Vic: Who's that? ... Radovan: You got a gun, Frank? You don't usually carry one. What were you gonna do with it? Are we goin' to war? ... Milo: Frankie, you're fucking me! Come on, tell me a story. If we put aluminum foil on the fuse, we can go on all night. Unless you want to tell me a story. ... Milo [on the phone]: Frank, we have a problem. Frank: We? Milo: It's gone too far. Too many people talk about us. Bad for me, bad for you. Frank, my friend, we have to fix it, yeah? Frank: How do you suggest we fix it? Milo: How much do you have now? Frank: About 70. Milo: Okay, bring it here. Then we're even, yeah? ... Frank [to Vic]: We're not going. It's okay now. It's no problem....What the hell would I do in Spain? [cut to Milo's apartment and Radovan laying down a plastic sheet on the floor] He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 "Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 37240 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film Gone Girl: An exploration into modern relationships. Or, rather, relationships as they seem ever to be headed in our late-capitalist, postmodern world. In other words, what part is real and what part are they just making up as they go along? Really. There are any number of historical and cultural contexts in which this sort of thing would be all but inconceivable. Worlds [communities] that revolve around one or another God or one or another set of social mores that cohere folks into a frame of mind that basically revolves around "a place for everyone, and everyone in his or her place". But it doesn't much work that way anymore, does it? And not just with respect to sexuality or love. Nothing much is beyond the grasp of the new nihilism. Especially in a world where, increasingly, the Holy Trinity is now pop culture, mindless consumption and the worship of celebrity. Indeed, is there anything that anyone does nowadays that has not already been configured into one or another reality TV program? In fact, in this film, once Nick and Amy become "celebrities" [fixtures on the Nancy Grace.com.ilk circuit] reality and TV reality become a virtual blur. At times, reality itself becomes the slipperiest of slopes. And Amy is to, say the least, calculating. So, from Nick's end, everything must become completely rehearsed. In the end, however, he succumbs to the illusion itself. Or seems to. And then there is that age old gap between what we think others are thinking and what they think we are thinking. And then how, again, especially in this day and age, we can never really be sure. And then there's Amy's diary. Of course this is not only applicable to husbands and their wives. It's also applicable to parents and their children. In fact, let's face it, it's more or less applicable to everyone. IMDb When it comes to casting roles, David Fincher typically goes on the internet to look through pictures of actors to help him find the right type of actor for a role. When casting the role of Nick Dunne, Fincher spotted photos of Ben Affleck and noticed a particular smile Affleck had on dozens of pictures. According to Fincher, it captured a particular emotion in a scene of Nick Dunne smiling that showed the essence of the character. Soon after, Fincher cast Ben Affleck in the role. Originally Nick was supposed to wear a Yankees cap in one scene. But Affleck, a die-hard Red Sox fan, refused to wear it. Ultimately he and Fincher compromised and in that scene he wears a Mets cap. In order to figure out his character, Ben Affleck researched and studied several men who were accused and convicted of killing their wives. He paid particular attention to Scott Peterson. Rosamund Pike claimed that per David Fincher's request, she and Neil Patrick Harris spent two hours on set, completely alone, rehearsing their sex scene. Rosamund Pike used a Dora the Explorer doll to practice her sex scene with Neil Patrick Harris. at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gone_Girl_(film) trailer: https://youtu.be/Ym3LB0lOJ0o GONE GIRL [2014] Directed by David Fincher Nick [voiceover]: When I think of my wife, I always think of the back of her head. I picture cracking her lovely skull, unspooling her brain, trying to get answers. The primal questions of a marriage: What are you thinking? How are you feeling? What have we done to each other? What will we do? ... Amy: So, you write for a men's magazine. God, does that make you an expert on being a man? Nick: No. Amy: It's what to wear, what to drink. How to bullshit. Nick: Never with you. Amy: Ha, ha. Nick: No, I mean it. And, at the time, he did. Margo: So, is Amy gonna do one of those anniversary treasure hunts? Nick: You mean the forced march designed to prove what an oblivious and uncaring asshole her husband is? Margo: Wow. Nick: Life. I don't remember the point. ... Margo [discussing what kind of wood item Nick is going to give to Amy for their 5th wedding anniversary]: So what are you going to give her? Nick: I don't know, there's nothing good for wood. Margo: I know what you can do. You go home and fuck her brains out. Then you take your penis and smack her in the face with it, and you say, "There's some wood, bitch!" ... Det. Boney: We're gonna hold a press conference tomorrow. Nick: You're having a press conference? Det. Boney: We wanna get the word out, right? Nick: Yeah, it's just all of a sudden, I feel like I'm on a Law and Order episode. ... Amy [in her diary]: Everyone told us and told us and told us...Marriage is hard work. And compromise and more work, "Abandon all hope, ye who enter." ... Margo: Well, did they ask personal stuff about Amy? Nick: You know, they asked why didn't she have any friends? Margo: What did you say? Nick: I said she was complicated. Margo: Nick! Everyone knows "complicated" is code for "bitch." ... Det. Boney [holding up an envelope that reads Clue One]: Well, we have our first clue. ... Amy [in her diary]: Want to test your marriage for weak spots? Add one recession... Subtract two jobs. It's surprisingly effective. There's always that part, right? Nick: Do you really want to be the couple that has a baby to save their marriage? Amy: "Save"? ... Margo [to Nick after finding out about Andie]: Boo hoo, I got laid off. Guess I'll fuck a teenager. Amy is diabolical. How diabolical? The heart and the soul of it: Amy [voiceover]: I'm so much happier now that I'm dead. Technically missing. Soon to be presumed dead. Gone. And my lazy lying shitting oblivious husband will go to prison for my murder. Nick Dunne took my pride and my dignity and my hope and my money. He took and took from me until I no longer existed. That's murder. Let the punishment fit the crime. To fake a convincing murder you have to have discipline. You befriend a local idiot. Harvest the details of her hundrum life and cram her with stories about your husband's violent temper. Secretly create some money troubles: credit cards, perhaps online gambling. With the help of the unwitting, bump up your life insurance. Purchase getaway car. Craigslist. Generic. Cheap. Pay cash. You need to package yourself so that people will truly mourn your loss. And America loves pregnant women. As if it's so hard to spread your legs. You know what's hard? Faking a pregnancy. First, drain your toilet. Invite pregnant idiot into your home and ply her with lemonade. Steal pregnant idiot's urine. Voilà! A pregnany is now part of your legal medical record. Happy Aniversary. Wait for your clueless husband to start his day. Off he goes... and the clock is ticking. Meticulously stage your crime scene with just enough mistakes to raise the specter of doubt. You need to bleed. A lot. A lot, a lot. The head wound kind of bleed. A crime scene kind of bleed. You need to clean; poorly, like he would. Clean and bleed, bleed and clean. And leave a Little something behind: a fire in July? And because you're you, you don't stop there. You need a diary. Mínimum three hundred entries on the Nick and Amy story. Start with the fairy-tale early days: those are true, and they're crucial. You want Nick and Amy to be likable. After that, you invent. The spending, the abuse, the fear, the threat of violence. And Nick thought he was the writer... burn it, just the right amount. Make sure the cops will find it. Finally, honor tradition with a very special treasure hunt. And if I get everything right, the world will hate Nick for killing his beautiful, pregnant wife. And after all the outrage, when I'm ready, I'll go out on the water with a handful of pills and a pocket full of stones. And when they find my body, they'll know: Nick Dunne dumped his beloved like garbage, and she floated past all the other abused, unwanted, inconvenient women. Then Nick will die too. Nick and Amy will be gone, but then we never really existed. ... Amy [voiceover]: Nick loved a girl I was pretending to be. "Cool girl". Men always use that, don't they? As their defining compliment: "She's a cool girl". Cool girl is hot. Cool girl is game. Cool girl is fun. Cool girl never gets angry at her man. She only smiles in a chagrined, loving manner. And then presents her mouth for fucking. She likes what he likes, so evidently he's a vinyl hipster who loves fetish Manga. If he likes girls gone wild, she's a mall babe who talks for football and endures buffalo wings at Hooters. When I met Nick Dunne I knew he wanted "Cool girl". And for him, I'll admit: I was willing to try. I wax-stripped my pussy raw. I drank canned beer watching Adam Sandler movies. I ate cold pizza and remained a size two. I blew him, semi-regularly. I lived in the moment. I was fucking game. I can't say I didn't enjoy some of it. Nick teased out in me things I didn't know existed. A lightness, a humor, an ease. But I made him smarter. Sharper. I inspired him to rise to my level. I forged the man of my dreams. We were happy pretending to be other people. We were the happiest couple we knew. And what's the point of being together if you're not the happiest? But Nick got lazy. He became someone I did not agree to marry. He actually expected me to love him unconditionally. Then he dragged me, penniless, to the navel of this great country and found himself a newer, younger, bouncier cool girl. You think I'd let him destroy me and end up happier than ever? No fucking way. He doesn't get to win. My cute, charming, salt-of-the-earth Missouri guy. He needed to learn. Grown-ups work for things. Grown-ups pay. Grown-ups suffer consequences. ... Nick: Punch and Judy puppets. Margo: Remember, he beats Judy to death and kills that baby. Nick: So I'm Punch. We already knew that, Amy, what's your point? Margo: Does Missouri have the death penalty? ... Officer Gilpin: You ever hear the expression the simplest answer is often the correct one? Det. Boney: Actually, I have never found that to be true. ... Tanner: So, what in God's name is at your father's house, Nick? And be honest. Nick: I honestly have no idea. Tanner [after spotting the yellow police tape at the house]: Whatever they found, I think it's safe to assume that it's very bad. Oh yeah. Tanner: This is a ticking time bomb. You've gotta throw yourself on it. Nick: People are gonna hate me. Tanner: And then, they will forgive you. A guy admitting that he's a gigantic asshole on television? People empathize with that. Sharon's specials, they get 10 million viewers. She is a crusader. If she takes you on as a cause... Margo: She's going to ask real questions. Tanner: I will drill you as if you were doing a deposition. What to say, what not to say. Margo: A trained monkey? Tanner: A trained monkey who doesn't get a lethal injection. ... Tanner: Nick, this case is about what people think of you. They need to like you. Now, you do this and you will reach millions of those people. Nick: Maybe I only need to reach one. ... Nick [after Margo checks the internet following his appearance on Sharon Shieber]: What does it say? Margo: Oh, my God. You fucking killed it! They're going crazy for you. Nick: They disliked me, they liked me, they hated me. And now they love me. ... Desi: You're not bored? Amy: Desi, how could I be bored? You can discuss 18th century synphonies, 19th century impressionists, quote proust in French. Nick's idea of culture was a reality TV marathon with one hand down his boxers. ... Nick [aloud to himself]: Come home, Amy. I dare you. ... Nick: I'm leaving. Amy: You really think that's smart? Wounded, raped wife battles her way back to her husband...and he deserts her? They'll destroy you. ... Nick: Was there ever a baby? Amy: There can be. ... Nick to Det. Boney]: She told me she killed Desi. Not self-defense. Murder. Margo: Can't we get a wire? Nick: That's not gonna work. She had me strip naked, and stand in the shower. Tanner: I swear, you two are the most fucked-up people I've ever known. And I specialize in fucked-up. You and Amy under the same roof? You should pitch that as reality television. ... Nick: I can't believe you're just leaving now. Tanner: You are not at risk anymore. Nick: I'm the definition of "at risk." Tanner: You got a book deal, a lifetime movie, you franchised The Bar. You may wanna thank her. ... Nick [after Amy makes him aware of the next "part"]: You fucking cunt! Amy: I'm the cunt you married! ... Amy [to Nick]: The only time you liked yourself was when you were trying to be someone this cunt might like. I'm not a quitter, I'm that cunt. I killed for you; who else can say that? You think you'd be happy with a nice Midwestern girl? No way, baby! I'm it. ... Nick: Fuck. You're delusional. I mean, you're insane, why would you even want this? Yes, I loved you and then all we did was resent each other, try to control each other. We caused each other pain. Amy: That's marriage. ... Nick [looking down at Amy but more in the way of a voiceover]: What are you thinking? How are you feeling? What have we done to each other? What will we do? He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 "Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 37240 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film This one only really works because almost everyone is in agreement: World War II was one of the "good wars". I mean, if you have to go to war, let it be against a particularly despicable monster like Adolph Hitler. It just doesn't quite work when imagining the enigma machine in the hands of, say, Ho Chi Minh or Saddam Hussein. Or is that just me. Alan Turing. He was the man who deconstructed the Enigma Machine. And in so doing made a remarkable contribution to the deconstruction of Hitler's Nazi regime itself. On the other hand, Alan Turing was also a homosexual. Back then. And back then is not now. Back then [war hero or not] he was arrested and charged with the crime of being a homosexual. He was sentenced to chemical castration. A year into his "treatment" he committed suicide. He was also a genius. And he was also...different. And so he was bullied for it. On the other hand, he wasn't a woman. And "back then" that was yet another demographic in which blind prejudice was rife. And then there is the part about thinking machines. All of the philosophical issues for example. And sooner or later when we go down that path the question of "determinism" will inevitably pop up. Though not so much here. Here the focus was often more on the nature of intelligence itself. "Artificial" intelligence? On the other hand, from the point of view of nature, what does that really mean? Anyway, Alan Turing was a man who made a difference. A big difference. It has been estimated that breaking the Enigma code attenuated the war by at least two years. And saved an estimated 14,000,000 lives. Not many folks can lay claim to an achievement like that. IMDb Winston Churchill stated that Turing made the single greatest contribution in Britain's war effort. ... Benedict Cumberbatch confessed that in one of the final scenes of the film he couldn't stop crying and had a breakdown. It was, as he said, "being an actor or a person that had grown incredibly fond of the character and thinking what he had suffered and how that had affected him." ... On 27 November 2014, ahead of the film's US release, The New York Times reprinted the original 1942 crossword puzzle from The Daily Telegraph used in recruiting code breakers at Bletchley Park during World War II. Entrants who solve the puzzle can mail in their results for a chance to win a trip for two to London and a tour of the famous Bletchley Park facilities. ... In an interview with USA Today, Benedict Cumberbatch said of Turing's Royal Pardon, "The only person who should be pardoning anybody is him (Turing). Hopefully, the film will bring to the fore what an extraordinary human being he was and how appalling (his treatment by the government was). It's a really shameful, disgraceful part of our history." ... At the interrogatory scene, Turing describes the famous "Turing Test". In the original illustrative example, a human judge engages in natural language conversations with a human and a machine designed to generate performance indistinguishable from that of a human being. The conversation is limited to a text-only channel such as a computer keyboard and screen so that the result is not dependent on the machine's ability to render words into audio. All participants are separated from one another. If the judge cannot reliably tell the machine from the human, the machine is said to have passed the test. The test does not check the ability to give the correct answer to questions; it checks how closely each answer resembles the answer a human would give. The test was introduced by Alan Turing in his 1950 paper "Computing Machinery and Intelligence," which he asks "Are there imaginable digital computers which would do well in the imitation game?" This question, Turing believed, is one that can actually be answered. More than 50 years later, no computer could pass the test. ... "If any young person's ever felt like they aren't quite sure who they are, or aren't allowed to express themselves the way they'd like to express themselves, if they've ever felt bullied by what they feel is the normal majority or any kind of thing that makes them feel an outsider, then this is definitely a film for them because it's about a hero for them," Cumberbatch stated at the European Premiere of the film at the London Film Festival, October 2014 at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imitation_Game trailer: https://youtu.be/S5CjKEFb-sM THE IMITATION GAME [2014] Directed by Morten Tyldum Alan [voiceover]: Are you paying attention? Good. If you are not listening carefully, you will miss things. Important things. I will not pause, I will not repeat myself, and you will not interrupt me. You think that because you're sitting where you are, and I am sitting where I am, that you are in control of what is about to happen. You're mistaken. I am in control, because I know things that you do not know. [pause] Alan: What I will need from you now is a commitment. You will listen closely, and you will not judge me until I am finished. If you cannot commit to this, then please leave the room. But if you choose to stay, remember you chose to be here. What happens from this moment forward is not my responsibility. It's yours. Pay attention. ... Commander Denniston: Why do you wish to work for His Majesty's government? Alan: Oh, I don't, really. Commander Denniston: Are you a bleeding pacifist? Alan: I'm... agnostic about violence. Commander Denniston: Well, you do realize that 600 miles away from London here's this nasty little chap called Hitler who wants to engulf Europe in tyranny? Alan: Politics isn't really my area of expertise. ... Alan: I like solving problems, Commander. And Enigma is the most difficult problem in the world. Commander Denniston: Enigma isn't difficult, it's impossible. The Americans, the Russians, the French, the Germans, everyone thinks Enigma is unbreakable. Alan: Good. Let me try and we'll know for sure, won't we? ... Commander Denniston: To decode a message, you need to know the machine's settings. Now, the Germans switch settings every day promptly at midnight. We usually intercept our first message around 6:00 a.m., which gives you exactlyto crack the code before it changes, and you start again. Alan: Five rotors. Ten plugboard cables. That's...one million... Peter: A thousand million...No, no, it's, uh, I've got it. It's a million, million. It's in the millions, obviously. Alan: It's over 150 million million million possible settings. Commander Denniston: Very good. Hugh: If you want to be exact about it. 1-5-9 with 18 zeroes behind it. Possibilities. Every single day. ... Alan [voiceover]: The game was quite a simple one. Every single German message, every surprise attack, every bombing run, every imminent U-boat assault...They were all floating through the air. Radio signals that... well, any schoolboy with an AM kit could intercept. The trick was that they were encrypted. There were 159 million million million possible Enigma settings. All we had to do was try each one. But if we had ten men checking one setting a minute for 24 ho urs every day and seven days every week, how many days do you think it would take to, uh, to check each of the settings? Well, it's not days, it's years. It's 20 million years. To stop a coming attack, we would have to check 20 million years worth of settings in 20 minutes. ... Alan [to Commander Denniston]: Enigma is an extremely well-designed machine. Our problem is that we're only using men to try to beat it. No, what if only a machine can defeat another machine? ... Stewart: My warmest welcome to His Majesty's service. If you speak a word of what I'm about to show you, you will be executed for high treason. You will lie to your friends, your family and everyone you meet about what it is you really do. Joan: And what is it that we're really doing? Alan: We're going to break an unbreakable Nazi code and win the war. Joan: Oh. ... Alan [as a boy]: What's that you're reading? Christopher: It's about cryptography. Alan: Like secret messages? Christopher: Not secret. That's the brilliant part. Messages that anyone can see, but no one knows what they mean unless you have the key. Alan: How's that different from talking? Christopher: Talking? Alan: When people talk to each other, they never say what they mean. They say something else, and you're expected to just know what they mean. Only I never do. So, how's that different? Christopher: Alan, I have a funny feeling you're going to be very good at this. ... Hugh [to Alan]: You know to pull off this irascible genius routine, one has to actually be a genius. ... Alan [to Joan]: Sometimes it is the very people who no one imagines anything of who do the things that no one can imagine. ... Alan [voiceover]: Some people thought we were at war with the Germans-- incorrect. We were at war with the clock. Britain was literally starving to death. The Americans sent over 100,000 tons of food every week and every week the Germans would send our desperately needed bread to the bottom of the ocean. Our daily failure was announced at the chimes of midnight. And the sound would haunt our unwelcome dreams. ... Joan: So you-you theorized a machine that could solve any problem. It didn't just do one thing, it did everything. It wasn't just programmable, it was reprogrammable. Is that your idea behind Christopher? Alan: Well, human brains can compute large sums very quickly but I want my machine to be smarter. To make a calculation and then, uh, to determine what to do next. Like a person does. Think of it. An electrical brain. A digital computer. ... Hugh: If you run the wires across the plugboard matrix diagonally, you'll eliminate rotor positions 500 times faster. Alan: This is actually not an entirely terrible idea. Joan: I think that was Alan for "thank you." ... Detective: That's what Turing's hiding. He's a poof, not a spy. ... Alan: What if... what if I don't fancy being with Joan in that way? John: Because you're a homosexual? I suspected. Alan: Sh- should I tell her that I've had affairs with men? John: You know, in my admittedly limited experience, women tend to be a bit touchy about accidentally marrying homosexuals. Perhaps not spreading this information about might be in your best interest. Alan: I care for her, I truly do, but... I-I just don't know if I can pretend... John: You can't tell anyone, Alan. It's illegal. And Denniston is looking for any excuse he can to put you away. Alan: I know. John: This has to stay a secret. ... Detective Nock: I'm here to help you. Alan: Oh, clearly! Detective Nock: Can machines think? Alan: Oh, so you've read some of my published works? Detective Nock: What makes you say that? Alan: Oh, because I'm sitting in a police station, accused of entreating a young man to touch my penis, and you've just asked me if machines can think. Detective Nock: Well, can they? Could machines ever think as human beings do? Alan: Most people say not. Detective Nock: You're not most people. ... Alan [to Detective Nock]: Of course machines can't think as people do. A machine is different from a person. Hence, they think differently. The interesting question is, just because something, uh, thinks differently from you, does that mean it's not thinking? Well, we allow for humans to have such divergences from one another. You like strawberries, I hate ice-skating, you cry at sad films, I am allergic to pollen. What is the point of different tastes, different preferences, if not, to say that our brains work differently, that we think differently? And if we can say that about one another, then why can't we say the same thing for brains built of copper and wire, steel? Detective Nock: And that's this big paper you wrote? What's it called? Alan: "The Imitation Game." Detective Nock: Right, that's... that's what it's about? Alan: Would you like to play? Detective Nock: Play? Alan: It's a game. A test of sorts. For determining whether something is a... a machine or a human being. Detective Nock: How do I play? Alan: Well, there's a judge and a subject, and... the judge asks questions and, depending on the subject's answers, determines who he is talking with... what he is talking with, and, um, all you have to do is ask me a question. Detective Nock: What did you do during the war? Alan: I worked in a radio factory. Detective Nock: What did you really do during the war? Alan (laughing softly): Are you paying attention? ... Alan [having a eureka! moment]: Helen! Wh-Why do you think your German counterpart has a girlfriend? Helen: It's just a stupid joke; don't worry. Alan: No, no, no, no. Tell me. Helen: Well, each of his messages begins with the same five letters: C-I-L-L-Y. So I suspect that Cilly must be the name of his amore. Alan [morevto himself]: But that's impossible. The Germans are instructed to use five random letters at the start of every message. Helen: Well, this bloke doesn't. Hugh: Love will make a man do strange things, I suppose. Alan: In this case, love just lost Germany the whole bloody war. ... Alan: Heil Hitler. Turns out that's the only German you need to know to, uh, break Enigma. ... Hugh: My God, you did it. You just defeated Nazism with a crossword puzzle. Peter: There are five people in the world who know the position of everyship in the Atlantic. And they're all in this room. Then this... Alan: Sometimes we can't do what feels good. We have to do what is logical. Hugh: What's logical? Alan: The hardest time to lie to somebody is when they're expecting to be lied to. Joan: Oh, God. Hugh: What? Alan: If someone's waiting for a lie, you can't just, uh, give them one. Joan: Damn it, Alan's right. Hugh: What? Alan: What wouldthe Germans think if we destroy their U-boats? Peter: Nothing. They'll be dead. Alan: No. So our convoy suddenly veers off course...a squadron of our air bombers miraculously descends on the coordinates of the U-boats...what will the Germans think? Joan: The Germans will know that we have broken Enigma. They'll stop all radio communications by midday, and they'll have changed the design of Enigma by the weekend. Alan: Yes. Two years' work. Everything that we've done here will all be for nothing. Frank: There are 500 civilians in that convoy. Women...children. We're about to let them die. Alan: Our job is not to save one passenger convoy, it is to win the war. ... Stewart: Why are you telling me this ? Alan: We need your help, to keep this a secret from Admiralty, Army, RAF. Ah... as no one can know, that we've broken enigma, not even Commander Dennison. Stewart: Who is in the process of having you fired? Joan: You can take care of that. Alan: While we develop a system to help you determine how much intelligence to act on. Which ahh attacks to stop, which to let through. Statistical analysis, the minimum number of actions it will take, for us to win the war -- but the maximum number we can take, before the Germans get suspicious. Stewart: And you're going to trust of this all to statistics? To maths? Alan: Correct. Joan: And then MI6 can come up with the lies we will tell everyone else. Alan: You'll need a believable alternative source for all the pieces of information that you use. Joan: A false story, so that we can explain how we got our information, that has nothing to do with Enigma, and then you can leak those stories to the Germans. Alan: And then to our own military. Stewart: Maintain a conspiracy of lies at the highest levels of government? Sounds right up my alley. ... Alan [voiceover]: They code-named it "Ultra." It became the largest store of military intelligence in the history of the world. It was like having a tap on Himmler's intercom. ... Alan [after finding out Cairncross is a Soviet spy]: I-I have to tell Denniston. Cairncross: No, you don't. Because if you tell him my secret I'll tell him yours. Do you know what they do to homosexuals? You'll never be able to work again, never be able to teach. Your precious machine...I doubt you'll ever see it again. ... Alan [voiceover]: Advice about keeping secrets: it's a lot easier if you don't know them in the first place....Were they steaming my letters, tapping my telephone? Trailing my nervous walks? You know, I...I never did find out. ... Joan: Alan, what's happened? Alan [after a pause]: We can't be engaged anymore. Your parents need to take you back. Find you a husband elsewhere. Joan: What's wrong with you? Alan: I have something to tell you. I'm... I'm a homosexual. Joan: Alright. Alan: No, no, men, Joan. Not women. Joan: So what? Alan: I just told you... Joan: So what? I had my suspicions. I always did. But we're not like other people. We love each other in our own way, and we can have the life together that we want. You won't be the perfect husband? I can promise you I harboured no intention of being the perfect wife. I'll not be fixing your lamb all day, while you come home from the office, will I? I'll work. You'll work. And we'll have each other's company. We'll have each other's minds. Sounds like a better marriage than most. Because I care for you. And you care for me. And we understand one another more than anyone else ever has. Alan: I don't. Joan: What? Alan: Care for you. I never did. I just needed you to break Enigma. I've done that now, so you can go. Joan [slaps him]:I am not going anywhere. I have spent entirely too much of my life worried about what you think of me, or what my parents think of me, or what the boys in Hut 8 or the girls in Hut 3 think, and you know I am done. This work is the most important thing I will ever do. And no one will stop me. Least of all you. [pause] Joan: You know what? They were right. Peter. Hugh. John. You really are a monster. ... Alan [voiceover]: The war dragged on for two more solitary years...and every day we performed our blood-soaked calculus. Every day we decided who lived and who died. Every day we... helped the Allies to victories, and nobody knew. Stalingrad. The Ardenne. The invasion of Normandy. All victories that would not have been possible without the intelligence that we supplied. And people... talk about the war as this epic battle between civilizations... freedom versus tyranny, democracy versus Nazism, armies of millions bleeding into the ground, fleets of ships weighing down the oceans, planes dropping bombs from the sky until they obliterated the sun itself. The war wasn't like that for us. For us, it was just half a dozen crossword enthusiasts in a tiny village in the South of England. ... Alan [after telling the story of Enigma]: Now, detective, you get to judge. So tell me, what am I? Am I a machine, am I a person, am I a war hero, or am I a criminal? Detective Nock: I can't judge you. Alan: Well then, you're no help to me at all. ... Joan: I would have come. I would have testified. Alan: And what would you have said, that I, uh...I wasn't a homosexual. Joan: Alan... this is serious. They could sendyou to jail. [she notices hi8s shaking hands] Joan: Your hands. You're twitching. Alan: No-no, I'm not. It's the medication. Joan: The medication? Alan: Uh, well, the judge gave me, um, a choice...uh, ei-either two years in prison or... ho-hormonal therapy. Joan: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Alan: Yes, yes, that's right. Chemical castration. ... Joan [to Alan]: Do you know, this morning I was on a train that went through a city that wouldn't exist if it wasn't for you. I bought a ticket from a man who would likely be dead if it wasn't for you. I read up, on my work, a whole field of scientific inquiry that only exists because of you. Now, if you wish you could have been normal...I can promise you I do not. The world is an infinitely better place precisely because you weren't. Alan: Do you do you really think that? Joan: I think that sometimes it is the people who no one imagines anything of who do the things that no one can imagine. ... Title card: After a year of government mandated hormonal therapy, Alan Turing committed suicide on June 7th, 1954. He was 41 years old. Between 1885 and 1967, approximately 49,000 homosexual men were convicted of gross indecency under British law. ... Title card: Turing's work inspired generations of research into what scientists called "Turing machines". Today we call them computers. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 "Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 37240 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film Atlas Shrugged: The movie. Released on April 15th. Tax day. How's that for clever symbolism? Or how about making Eddie Willers the only black hero? He's one of them...but not really. He is supposed to reflect the working class equivalent of the objectivist. His brain allows him to behave morally, but he does not have enough smarts to actually be one of the true Heroes here. The true Objectivist hero is always the man of ideas. Why? Because Objectivism revolves around the idea that only when the individual has come to grasp the one true nature of morality "metaphysically" can he go on to run railroads and invent new energy sources or own and operate steel mills and the like. Even if not to this date "in reality". Everything apparently starts with concocting a rational philosophy of life and than living one's life wholly in accordance with it. Of course, that quickly exposes the glaring gap between the rhetoric of the Objecitivist hero and the reality of the world that we now live in: the fact that [so far] Atlas has not shrugged. In fact, he has never even come close. The fact that it took the Objectivists literally decades to even make this movie speaks volumes in and of itself. On the other hand, it garnered only an 11% fresh rating at Rotten Tomatoes. So, from their perspective, they must be on the right track. Objectivists of this ilk never feel they are on the right track unless "the masses" hold them in contempt. But, then, as cartoon characters in a world where the heroic can only be sustained "in their head", I'm sure they are thoroughly convinced that, with the movie finally out there, it is only a matter of time now before the John Galts among us gets the ball rolling. And not just in New Hampshire either. Sad to say, in the film the characters are even more cartoonish than in the novel. I honestly did not imagine that was even possible. What is particularly ludicrous is the manner in which the crony capitalists are portrayed. The film is set in the year 2016 and you would think the folks running the corporations in America were practically socialist: James Taggert: How are the Mexicans going to develop the area with a single passenger train a day?...That Mexican line was helping those destitute people to get back in the game...You can't just take everything away from people who need our help You also might be wondering how they managed to make the railroads the most important form of transportation in the year 2016. Well, they made the price of gasoline$37.50 a gallon.

No doubt, even Ayn Rand herself would have been appalled at this effort.

Still, who can deny that Rand was always able to put a spin on capitalism that its detractors are never really able to make go away.

This film was always going to be inferior to The Fountainhead. And that's because the more you try to integrate the Objectivist plot into the world at large the more preposterous it becomes. With The Fountainhead you could at least imagine some success when the story revolved solely around one individual trying to live out his own personal philsophy. But once the the fate of the whole world is at stake, it all collapses into sheer absurdity. How else to explain the manner in which the gap between the novel and the world just keeps getting wider and wider and wider. But then, perhaps, no wider than the one between the Wealth of Nations and the Communist Manifesto.

IMDb

According to Variety, The Godfather (1972) producer Albert S. Ruddy spent years trying to bring the novel to the big screen, attracting the interest of Clint Eastwood, Robert Redford and Faye Dunaway along the way.

In the late 1970s, NBC had plans to bring the novel to television as one of the multi-part mini-series popular at the time. Ayn Rand wanted Farrah Fawcett to star, but the project never materialized.

Angelina Jolie, Charlize Theron and Maggie Gyllenhaal were among the actresses considered to play Dagny Taggart, with Brad Pitt being considered to play John Galt.

at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:_Part_I
trailer: https://youtu.be/6W07bFa4TzM

ATLAS SHRUGGED PART 1 [2011]
Directed by Paul Johansson

Galt: Midas Mulligan.
Galt: Someone who knows what it's like to work for himself and not let others feed off the profits of his energy.
Midas Mulligan: That's funny. That's exactly what I've been thinking.
Galt: We're alike, you and I.

This is always how the exchanges unfold when two of the "heroes" meet. Never once does someone say something that the other does not concur with wholeheartedly.

James: You're lucky.
Dagney: What?
James: Other people are human. They're sensitive. They can't just dedicate their whole lives to metals and engines. You've never had any feelings. I don't think you're ever felt a thing.
Dagney: No, Jim. I guess I've never felt anything at all.

And this is how the exchanges always go when one of the "heroes" engages one of the "collectivists". Almost as though it is all...scripted?

Dagny: I'm not interested in their opinion.
James: Then whose do you go by?
Dagny: My own.

...

Rearden: I'm curious... is it alright with you that I'm squeezing every penny of profit I can from your emergency?
Dagny: I have to get the Rio Norte completely re-railed in nine months or Taggart Transcontinental will crash.
Rearden: They're doing their best to make it harder for you aren't they?
Dagny: Yes, but it's useless to get angry with people like my brother and his friends in Washington. I don't have time for it. I have to undo what they've done.
Rearden: And after?
Dagny: After, they won't matter anyway.

...

Mother Rearden [after Readon gives his wife a bracelett made from, Reardon Metal]: Another man would have given his wife a diamond bracelet if he wanted to give her a gift - for her pleasure not his.
Lillian: No, the chain is appropriate. I think it's the chain by which he keeps us all in bondage. Henry has poured his metal today and I have the first trophy.

...

Rearden: What are you doing with yourself these days?
Phillip [his brother]: I'm working for Friends of Global Awareness.
Rearden: I know them. What do you want?
Phillip: Money.
Rearden: Doesn't everyone? Call my office first thing in the morning. I'll authorize a hundred grand for you.
Phillip: You really don't care about helping the underprivileged, do you?
Rearden: No Phillip, I don't, but it'll make you happy.
Rearden: Oh, it's not for me Hank. It's for the benefit of the less privileged. You think I can have the money wired to my account?
Rearden: A wire? Why?
Phillip: Well, the thing is, it's a Progressive group. They wouldn't appreciate your name on a check.
Reardon: You're kidding me.
Phillip: No, it would embarrass us to have you on a list of our contibutors.

Hank obviously has a lot to learn about being a hero.

Paul: They say you're intractable, you're ruthless, your only goal is to make money.
Rearden: My only goal is to make money.
Paul [whispering]: Yes, but you shouldn't say it.

The set up for the ubermen:

Francisco: I want to learn to understand you.
Reardon: What for?
Francisco: If it wasn't for you, most of these people would be left helpless. Why are you willing to carry them?
Reardon: Because they're a bunch of miserable children trying to stay alive desparately and very badly.
Francisco: Have you told them?
Reardon: Told them what?
Francisco: That you're working for your sake, not theirs.
Reardon: They know.
Francisco: Yes, they do. But they don't think that you do.
Reardon: What do I care what they think.
Francisco: Because it's a battle. A battle in which one must make one's stand clear.
Reardon: What battle? I don't fight the disarmed.
Francisco: But they have a weapon against you. It's their only weapon but it's a terible one. Ask yourself what it is sometime. There's a reason you are as unhappy as you are.
Rearden: What exactly is your motive here?
Francisco: Let's just say it is to give you the words you will need for the time you will need them.

...

Reardon: Don't worry, I didn't come in here for sex?
Lillian: Thank you, dear. What did ypou come in here for?
Rearden: The next time you decide to throw a party, can you stick to your own crowd? Don't bother inviting people you think are my friends.
Lillian: But Henry, you don't have any friends.

...

Dr. Potter [after offering Reardon government money]: Why is it so important for you to struggle for year after year, squeezing out meager gains rather than accept a fortune for Rearden Metal?
Reardon: Because it is mine. Do you understand that concept? Mine.

...

Dagny: Dr. Akston? One more question. I need the name of your student who worked at the 20th Century Motor Company.
Dr. Akston: I know why you're here, Miss Taggert. The se ret you're trying to solve, it's greater...and I mean much greater...than an engine that runs on atmospheric electricity.
Dagny: I'm not going to give up finding the inventor of that motor.
Dr. Akston: Oh, don't worry, Miss Taggert, when the time comes, he'll find you.

Ellis: Who the hell are you?
Galt: My name is John Galt. I live in a place we call Atlantis, and I think you'd fit in there. It's a place where heroes live; where those who *want* to be heroes live. The government we have there respects each of us as individuals and as producers. Actually, beyond a few courthouses there isn't much government at all. Bottom line, Mr Wyatt; if you're weary of a government that refuses to limit its power over you, if you're ready at this moment to claim the moral right to your own life, then we should leave, and I'll take you there. I'll take you to Atlantis.

Strike! Strike! Strike!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

"Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 37240
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

It's like you're talking to yourself, dude

Peripheral

Posts: 481
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:23 pm
Location: Tessier-Ashpool Spindle

### Re: philosophy in film

Peripheral wrote:It's like you're talking to yourself, dude

On the other hand, with 111,440 views, I'd like to think that a few others are listening. They get the point of the thread, even if you don't.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

"Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 37240
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Hey, the spectacle of someone passionately talking to themselves can be compelling. Whether they get the point or not, you'll probably never know. At least you're having fun, though.

If you ever want to open up the thread to discourse, it would be interesting.

Peripheral

Posts: 481
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:23 pm
Location: Tessier-Ashpool Spindle

### Re: philosophy in film

Racism in America. Is it okay to turn it into yet another plot device? Well, that depends of course. But then the manner in which we go about exploring just about anything always depends on one thing or another.

After all, depending on how you define "racist", who isn't?

And, let's face it, here in America a week doesn't go by without one or another news story sparking folks to discuss the issue of "race in America". And, of course, nothing quite pisses racists off more than having racism itself shoved in their face.

And then the part about black folks reacting to it all. In that context this film reminds you a lot of Spike Lee's School Daze. After all, it's not as though the black students themselves are always of a single mind on issues involving race. Instead, the complexities are everywhere...effecting everyone from their own particular vantage point.

For example, here there's the part about homosexuality.

Still, one would generally asssume that, at least on a college campus, you are more likely to bump into men and women not hopelessly entangled in the belly of the working class beast. There being racist can easily become the equivalent of breathing in and out. Here though many of the students [both black and white] seem comfortably enscounced in the upper middle class.

But then all that stuff about race gets entangled into all that stuff about class in a post-modern world that is never ever all that far removed from all that stuff about the pursuit of fame and fortune.

IMDb

The invitation for the party as shown in the trailer is almost verbatim the invitation for a real life party that occurred at the University of California, San Diego, on February 10th, 2010. The synopsis and film take many cues from the UCSD "Compton Cookout," an event run by one African American but attended by UCSD's predominately white and Asian student body. The event itself went fine, but news about it prompted a massive uproar on campus.

Producer Lena Waithe and writer/director Justin Simien met in a scriptwriter's group. Despite the fact that the script was over 200 pages long, Waithe was so impressed with Simien's writing that she told him if he could figure out a way to streamline the script she would produce it, despite having never produced a film before.

The theme of the frat party exhibiting blatant racism, parallels the MLK Day celebration that took place at Arizona state university in January 2014.

at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dear_White_People
trailer: https://youtu.be/XwJhmqLU0so

DEAR WHITE PEOPLE [2014]
Directed by Justin Simien, Adriana Serrano

Sam [on the radio]: Dear white people, the minimum requirement of black friends needed to not seem racist has just been raised to two. Sorry, but your weed man, Tyrone, does not count.

...

Sam [on the radio]: Dear white people...apparently Morgan Freeman wasn't enough. Obama could cure cancer and somewhere white folks will be embroiled in protest. And he's only half black.

...

Gabe [on the phone]: So, Sam, how would you feel if someone started a "Dear Black People" show?
Sam: No need. Mass media from Fox News to reality TV on VH1 makes it clear what white people think of us.

...

Reality TV show producer: So your YouTube show, it's called "Doing Time at an Ivy League?"
Coco: I'm in my second year of a four year sentence.
Reality TV show producer: Armstrong-Parker, that's your housing assignment?
Coco: Traditionally it's where the hopelessly Afrocentric gather to process their guilt over not going to an HBCU. Where the negros be at.
Reality TV show producer: That's not where you wanted to be, right?
Coco: Bechet House is more my style.
Reality TV show producer: The rich white kids?
Coco: Excuse me?

...

Reality TV show producer: What part of Chicago are you from?
Coco: Hyde Park.
Reality TV show producer: What street?
Coco: Seventy-eighth and...
Reality TV show producer: Seventy-eighth! That's Southside, sweetheart. You know what they say. You can take the girl out the hood, but you cannot take the hood...
Coco: There is nothing hood about me!

...

Sam [on the radio]: Dear white people, this just in: Dating a black person to piss off your parents is a form of racism.

...

Troy: Do you seriously think you can win?
Sam: Troy, we live in a world where there's a Big Momma's House 3. I don't think I have a chance in hell. Thank God.

...

Sam: Troy is a legacy kid...and yet it's under his watch that Armstrong-Parker, the bastion of black culture here was gutted by the Randomization of Housing Act. Now, second years of color no longer have a say in where they go. The culture that's been fostered in this house for two decades will be wiped out in two years. This wasn't motivated by a desire to mix things up bring about racial and socioeconomic harmony, no. The black kids are sitting together in the proverbial cafeteria so they must be up to no good. Over a century of houses grouped by sports affiliations political leanings, majors, you name it. Black kids get their own house and suddenly we got a problem? This doesn't affect the other houses like it does ours. There are plenty of trustees, former coaches, presidents watching out for the others but all we have is a dean who would rather please his massa...
Troy [in the audience]: Yo, that's enough of that, Sam!
Sam: ...then stand up for his own!

...

Sam [voiceover]: The Armstrong-Parker dining hall is the epicenter of black culture as it stands at Winchester. Only here can you commiserate, celebrate and discuss everything from Kanye West lyrics to theoretical relativism all in a sitting...not to mention find someone who can actually do your hair.

...

Professor Bodkin: Sam?
Sam: Before you say anything might I remind you that I sat through A Birth of a Nation, Gone with the Wind and Tarantino week without protest.
Professor Bodkin: ...Might I also remind you that I read your entire fifteen-page unsolicited treatise on why the Gremlins is actually about suburban white fear of black culture.
Sam: The Gremlins are loud, talk in slang, are addicted to fried chicken and freak out when you get their hair wet.

Intellectuals discuss race:

Gabe: You invoke minstrelsy for shock value, to what end?
Sam: To invoke the same feeling I get when I turn on the TV and see some so-called reality star shuck and jive for ratings egged on by no doubt white producers. Or the sassy black secretary who has no backstory or character development aside from her skin color.
Gabe: So it's a tit for tat?
Sam: Are you honestly saying that art can't be reactionary?
Gabe: You're reacting to something that's 100 years old.
Sam [ironically]: Because fear of black men involved in U.S. government is a completely antiquated concept. No social relevance today.
Gabe: I think that sometimes you should hold a mirror up to your audience rather than dropping an ideological piano on their head.
Sam: I just think that works that deal with the African Diaspora through a post-modern lens are outright rejected unless handled by a white artist.
Gabe: African Diaspora?
Sam: Yeah, I said it. I'm sorry, but blackface is alive and well in our culture. Who primarily buys hip hop and watches Housewives of Atlanta? The same homogenized images of black people over and over again? White people, Gabe.
Gabe: Who goes to see Tyler Perry movies?
Sam: We're an underfed community. None of this changes the fact that the vibrancy...the complexity of black culture has been distilled into commodities and marketing schemes
to be bought and sold.

...

Sam [on the radio]: Dear white people, please stop touching my hair. Does this look like a petting zoo to you?

...

Sam [on the radio]: Dear white people, knowing Lil' Wayne lyrics no longer earns you an honorary black card. It just reminds me of how often you say the word "nigga" when no one black is around as is required in reciting said lyrics.

...

Sam [on the radio]: Dear white people, in a shocking reversal using the term "African-American" is borderline racist now. It turns out if you're too worried about political correctness to say "black", odds are you secretly just want to call us niggers anyway...and truth be told, I'd rather you just be honest about it.

...

President Fletcher [to the dean of students]: Racism is over in America. The only people who are thinking about it are, I dunno, Mexicans probably.

...

Dean Fairbanks: Your show is racist.
Sam: Black people can't be racist. Prejudiced, yes, but not racist. Racism describes a system of disadvantage based on race. Black people can't be racist since we don't stand to benefit from such a system.

...

Sam: You don't understand. Girls like me...
Gabe: What, have to pick a side? I'm sick of your tragic mulatto bullshit, Sam.
Sam: You can't say "mulatto."
Gabe: Mulatto, mulatto, mulatto! I'm sorry if I can't be your Nubian Prince on my black horse ready to take you back to fucking Zamunda.
Sam: That's not a real African country.
Gabe: Can I at least get a little credit for a solid 'Coming to America' reference? This isn't you Sam.
Sam: No? And who am I?
Gabe: You're this girl...
Sam: Perceptive...
Gabe: Who likes to argue with me about every fucking thing. And I hate it because we both know you're smarter than me. Your favorite director is Bergman. But you tell everyone it's Spike Lee. You love bebop but you've got a thing for Taylor Swift. And I know because my Mac picks up your Mac's library.
Sam: I was so careful...
Gabe: You like to watch me when you think I'm sleeping and trace the outlines of my face. You're more Banksy than Barack. But you've been co-opted as some sort of revolutionary leader or something. But really, you're an anarchist. A shit-starter. A beautiful filmmaker. And beautiful in general.

...

Sam: You're trying to frighten me, but I think you're the one who's scared.
President Fletcher: And I think you long for days when blacks were hanging from trees and denied actual rights that way you'd have something to actually fight against.

...

Dean Fairbanks: What sort of vision do you have for yourself?
Troy [his son]: Get my degree. Then law school.
Dean Fairbanks: And what's that got to do with partying with Kurt? With smoking weed and writing jokes? Is it the spotlight Kurt gets? You want to be on tv or something? You know how many Black men waste their lives to get on TV? Be rappers and ball players?
Troy: Dad no. I want what we always talked about. Maybe have my own firm someday? Run for office. Make a difference. Wife. Kids. I want all that. I really, really do.
Dean Fairbanks: And the drugs? God damn it Troy I taught you better than this. I have been in academia a long time, I've seen a lot of things. The men who really run this world? You got no idea what they see when they see you. You are not going to be what they all think you are. You will not give them that satisfaction, you hear me?
Troy: Yes sir.

...

Kurt [voiceover]: Dear white people, are you tired of your humdrum Wonder Bread existence of accidental racism, and wishing you could sip on henny out your crunk cup without a bitch giving you the side eye? Of course you are. For all those looking to unleash their inner negro from years of bondage and oppression, Pastiche proudly presents Dear White People our 89th annual Hallows Eve costume party tonight at 10 Pacific time...or five colored people time. Dudes must rock Fubu, Ecko... Rocawear, or Sean John. XXXL is the smallest sized T-shirt you can wear preferably with a collage of Barack Obama and Tupac on it. Ladies, we need to see huge hoop earrings long nails, and cheap, tight clothes. Proper hood rat starts fights, speaks loudly and when she can't think of the words she's trying to say... just makes one up, such as "edjmucated." Now feel free to fry on up some chicken bring some Kool-Aid, watermelon, forties, and of course, that purple drank. Naturally, there will be a freestyle rap competition so bring it and join us for the party of the year. Oh, and uh...nigga, nigga, nigga, nigga, nigga, nigga. Boy, that felt good.

...

Reality TV show producer: Let me get this straight. First you try to break up the black house. Then you take down the sister with the little radio show. Then after all of that your son throws a blackface party.
President Fletcher: Now wait a minute.
Reality TV show producer: Now if you thought you were having trouble finding money before...just wait until cable news gets their hands on this story. I mean, Bill Maher is going to fuck you up.
President Fletcher: You know, I've heard enough. I'm sorry.
Reality TV show producer: Look, the point is from where I'm sitting this place is a gold mine.
Dean Fairbanks: What?
Reality TV show producer: Well, we still need the stuff that leads up to the party.
Reality TV show producer: Well yeah, we can re-enact it.
Dean Fairbanks: Re-enact?
Reality TV show producer: It's a documentary term. The point is, I could be putting together an overall deal today. I am talking real money. Turns out the only thing Americans love in their reality TV more than ignorant black kids is crazy racist white folks.
Dean Fairbanks: Now look here. This is an honorable institution. The idea that we would so much as entertain...
President Fletchers [holds up his hand to shut Fairbanks up and looks over at the producer]: How much we talking?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

"Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 37240
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

iambiguous wrote:Racism in America. Is it okay to turn it into yet another plot device? Well, that depends of course. But then the manner in which we go about exploring just about anything always depends on one thing or another.

After all, depending on how you define "racist", who isn't?

And, let's face it, here in America a week doesn't go by without one or another news story sparking folks to discuss the issue of "race in America". And, of course, nothing quite pisses racists off more than having racism itself shoved in their face.

I've never seen racism used as a plot device, unless that racism occurs as a singular event driving the plot forward. Usually racism is a theme or subject of the film itself. Also, racism is far too broad a subject to say "racism" is the plot, theme, or plot device of the film. It would have to be a specific, and usually historically specific, type of racism. The ten best films about racism are:

1. The Believer
2. Do the Right Thing
3. The Pianist
4. Planet of the Apes
5. Borat
6. American History X
7. In the Heat of The Night
8, A Soldier's Story
10. Jungle Fever

Peripheral

Posts: 481
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:23 pm
Location: Tessier-Ashpool Spindle

### Re: philosophy in film

The film Crash, with a whole cast of famous actors (Thandie Newton, Sandra Bullock, Matt Damon, Don Cheadle, Jennifer Esposito, Michael Peña, Brendan Fraser, Terrence Howard, Chris "Ludacris" Bridges, Ryan Phillippe, Larenz Tate) revolves solely around racism... I thought it riveting (not because I care about racism) but because the way the scenes were pieced together was done very well and the acting was great.
The possibility of anything we can imagine existing is endless and infinite.. - MagsJ

I haven't got the time to spend the time reading something that is telling me nothing, as I will never be able to get back that time, and I may need it for something at some point in time.. Wait, What! - MagsJ

You’re suggestions and I, just simply don’t mix.. like oil on water, or a really bad DJ - MagsJ

MagsJ
The Londonist: a chic geek

Posts: 20325
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: Suryaloka/LDN Town

### Re: philosophy in film

My own daughter was designated as "gifted". But [apparently] there is an enormous gap between that an being designated as a "genuis". A child prodigy in other words. They are the ones who skip years in school and find themselves more or less interacting in the adult world. Of couse, emotionally and psychologically, they are still basically children. And it is at that considerably more problematic juncture that things can get interesting. Though not always for the better.

And what is it about the human brain that no one ever seems able to come into this world with a high emotional IQ? You know to match the part about intelligence.

And, lets face it, when you are a kid in America, you will almost always be picked on [even bullied] if you exhibit anything resembling a high intelligence. At least in the lower socio-economic communities. Especially if, in turn, you look like a geek. Or, as the "normal" kids will call you here: a freak.

But, let's be honest, even among the geeks are the assholes. Meet Damon.

Here the usual conflict is on display. Fred is a genius and Jane wants to enscounce him in an environment entirely devoted to expanding that potential. She calls it the "Odyssey of the Mind". Mom, on the other hand, a cocktail waitress [I think] is less than enthusiastic about it. Fred [naturally] is torn. He is somewhere in the middle between these two extremes. So a happy ending here can only revolve around Fred bringing the two of them together [along with the rest of us] somewhere in the middle.

See if you can spot the difference between what you know and what you understand.

at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Man_Tate
trailer: https://youtu.be/hVb_7Eihd28

LITTLE MAN TATE [1991]
Directed by Jodie Foster

Fred [voiceover]: It's funny, cause I think I can even remember being born. For the first two weeks of my life I didn't even have a name. Dede couldn't make up her mind. She finally decided on Fred. She said that she had never heard of a little kid named Fred before.

...

Fred [voiceover]: My first grade teacher, Miss Nimvel, told Dede that I never paid attention. That I was probably retarded, and that I had a very limited future as a citizen of the United States. Then a week later, she said I should probably skip second grade, maybe even skip elementary school altogether.

...

Dede: Hey, guess what next Saturday is.
Fred: You get your period, I get a day alone in the park.
Dede: Very funny, lameo.

...

Garth [looking at slides of child prodigies]: This one calls himself Joey X but his real name is Joseph Zimmerman. 12 years old. Experimental painter. He's currently working on a \$200,000 commission for Hiroshi Electronics corporate headquarters in Tokyo.
Jane: What does he call this painting?
Garth: "Irony".
Garth: Next, Cherry Reynolds. 10 years old. Just published a volume of feminist poetry. In the preface, she refers to the American housewife as, and I quote..."A pathetic slamhound with no notion of self-worth whatsoever."
Jane: Whatever I pay you, Garth, it's not enough.
Garth: Fred Tate, 7 years old, 2nd grader at Eisenhower Elementary School. He writes poetry, paints in both oils and water, plays the piano at competition level, all the while maintaining what appear to be unlimited skills in math and physics. Can't explain it Jane, I mean, it's not so much what he knows, but - what he understands.

...

Fred [reciting a poem to his elementary school class]: "Death". There stands death, A bluish distillate in a cup without a saucer. Such a strange place to find a cup, Standing on the back of a hand. Oh, shooting star that fell into my eyes and through my body: Not to forget you. To endure.

...

Jane: Van Gogh. I wonder why he only painted one iris white.
Fred: Because he was lonely.

...

Jane: Ms Tate. Ms Tate, please. I didn't make myself clear. I'm inviting your son to come with us. If he enjoys himself, he'll be free to enrol in my school in the fall.
Dede: Wait a minute. Um... I don't even know you. Why would I let you take my kid on some trip, let alone enrol him anywhere, huh?
Jane: I see. Well, in this case, I'm sorry I wasted your time. Goodbye, Fred. You may keep this calendar since I won't be seeing you again. That way, you can look at Sunflowers any time you want.
Dede: Come on, kid.

...

Jane [voiceover]: Many gifted children go through some period of existential depression. Pain of the mind can often be worse than pain of the body. There is some ground for belief that genius is touched with madness.
[cue Fred screaming]

...

Jane [on the phone]: Just a minute here. Why are you suddenly changing your mind? Hm? I don't mean to pry but, um, do you need time alone or have you made plans that don't include your son?
Dede: Look, lady. You wanna make me work for it, that's fine, OK? But we both know that Fred's a hundred times smarter than the plateheads you got at that school. Now, you want him or not?
Jane: Does he have a suitcase?

...

Jane [up at the podium]: It's said that the genius learns without study and knows without learning. That he is eloquent without preparation exact without calculation and profound without reflection. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls t is a great pleasure to welcome you all to the 12th annual "Odyssey of the Mind".

...

Damon: Come on, wake up and face north twink. I'm an asshole, assholes don't have friends. But then I don't really care.
Fred: You don't?
Damon: A reasonable man adapts himself to the world around him. An unreasonable man expects to the world to adapt to him. Therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men.
Fred: Jane say that?
Damon: It was George Bernard Shaw.

...

Jane [holding up three fingers after Damons recovers consciousness]: Damon, how many fingers?
Damon: Orange.

...

Jane: Ms Tate, Fred is not a leper. Intelligence is not a disease that you have to protect him from. He's blessed, but he's certainly not alone. There are many gifted children out there.
Dede: Yeah? How many of 'em are blessed with ulcers, huh? How many of them go to bed worrying about the ozone layer, the rain forest and why innocent people get murdered all the time? Fred worries about everything. He can't help himself. You wanna send him to college. Jesus. You hear about kids ten years older than him jumping outta windows on account of the pressure.
Jane: Let's not get hysterical. We're talking about one class for one summer.
Jane: What I'm trying to tell you is that your son is starving for stimulation and challenge, and for some order in his life. Things that you don't provide but that I will. I know that to deny a child's potential is to smother his true self.
Dede: Fred doesn't give a shit about his potential. He just wants to be a normal, happy little kid.
Jane: Well, he's not normal, thank God, and he's certainly not happy. And you underestimate him greatly if you think that a summer by the pool will ever be enough for him. Fred wants to go to college. Don't take my word for it. Ask him.

...

Dede: You're crabby today.
Fred: I'm not crabby, I'm pensive.

...

Fred [to his mom]: If you send me the checkbook, I'll balance it for you.

...

Dede: Listen to me, Jane. If anything happens to him, anything at all 'll kill you. Now, I don't mean that I'll just hurt you. I mean that I'll kill you.

...

Jane: Now, Fred. These chores are your responsibilities. And for every week that you do them correctly we'll do something fun like go to the symphony, or rent a nice documentary.

...

Jane: You think you can tell me Beaton's refraction formula for the sun? Mr Buckner might ask you that. Energy plus parallax equals...
Fred: How come you always ask me about school? Hm? How come you always talk like you're reading a book? How come nobody ever comes over? And how come you don't have any kids of your own? What's wrong with you?

...

Make-Up Woman [getting Fred ready to go on TV]: Now remember sweet face, zillions of people all over the world are gonna be watching you; and that means no farting, no picking your nose and no playing with little Mr. Peabody.

...

Fred [voiceover]: I once got this fortune cookie that said, "only when all things around you are different will you truly belong". Well, we're all different that's for sure. I see Jane everyday at the institute, and once in while Dede let's her take us out to a fancy restaurant. Sometimes we even have fun. After a while I was the most famous kid at Jane's school. But then a year later, a 6 year old boy named Willie Yamaguchi got into law school, and suddenly I wasn't such a big deal anymore. But I don't care, because I was happy.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

"Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 37240
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

I can't find a movie thread so this one will have to do.

I watched this movie last night and was really impressed by Pfeiffer and Pacino's performance. It's a cliched love story: guy meets a girl who's lonely and hesitant to fall in love after a previously abusive relationship. He persists and finally wins her over. This scene was a favorite:

Zoot Allures
Philosopher

Posts: 2607
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:50 pm

### Re: philosophy in film

Now I'm on a Pacino binge. I think this one is philosophy in film, certainly.

Devil's Advocate. Pacino at his best.

Zoot Allures
Philosopher

Posts: 2607
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:50 pm

### Re: philosophy in film

Another rendition of the disintegrating relationship. This one is all the more convoluted though because it is comes in three parts: Him. Her. Them.

And, to be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure which one this is. The DVD title leaves out the part about him, her or them. Them I suspect.

Anyway, it all merely reinforces the argument I always make about the existential nature of any partiuclar point of view. In fact, the relationship unfolds as it does. But it also unfolds as each of them thinks that it does "in their head". So, what really happened? Of course you know better than to ask me.

Eleanor Rigby. No, the other one. But, still, one way or another, we all live lives that can only really be understood in context. And by comparison.

Comparing it to what though is where it all becomes particularly complicated. And that is before we get to the part about the characters' "backstory".

Of course this all unfolds among people who have plenty of options; and from within a context that is more or less barren of all political and economic references. The usual, in other words.

Still, we suspect right from the get-go there is an underlying tragedy fueling all of this. And we aren't in the least bit surprised when we learn what it is. But then how many of us have ever had to endure it ourselves? We can only assume then that they come close to encompassing it here.

IMDb

Ned Benson originally intended for the part of Eleanor Rigby to be much smaller and enigmatic. After Jessica Chastain read the script and demanded to know more about Eleanor's back-story he created an entire section devoted to her character's perspective.

at wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Disapp ... anor_Rigby
trailer: https://youtu.be/-Ng4MD66WyU

THE DISAPPEARANCE OF ELEANOR RIGBY [2014]
Written and directed by Ned Benson

Conor: Would you still love me if I couldn't pay for dinner?
Eleanor: Possibly.

In fact, no one pays for the dinner.

Conor [to Eleanor with the waiter chasing him down the street]: Run! Run! Run!

...

Conor [to Eleranor]: There's only one heart in this body. Have mercy on me.

Cut to Eleanor attempting to commit suicide.

Stuart: That's brutal, man. Maybe she wants you to go after her.
Conor: No, she doesn't.
Stuart: Maybe wait a couple of days and go after her?
Conor: Stu, don't.
Stuart: Well, I guess when someone flirts with extinction...
Conor: Shut the fuck up.

...

Lillian: Do you have an appointment?
Eleanor: I'm Eleanor Rigby.
Lillian: That must be tough.
Eleanor: I'm here to talk my way into your Identity Theory class.

...

Lillian: So why do you wanna be in my class?
Eleanor: Your course sounds interesting. And, look...you are a colleague of my dad, so...
Lillian: Well, you gotta do better than that.
Eleanor: You want me to make something up?
Lillian: Well, most people do. You're just taking classes just to take classes, right?
Eleanor: Something like that.
Lillian: Well, let me save you some time. All the perpetual students or hedge fund wives in your generation of too many choices... they usually go to Tim Gunn's class to listen to him talk about Project Runway. Or you can take the Art History class or the advent of color photography just for a good cocktail party conversation.
Eleanor: "My generation of too many choices"?
Lillian: Democracy has its drawbacks.

...

Eleanor: You're teaching classes just to teach classes, right?
Lillian: Something like that. I'm having a month. I'm sorry. Your father didn't give me much warning or tell me much about you. And I'm really not one for nepotism. I just got the call asking if I could squeeze you into a class. So I don't really know who you are.
Eleanor: It's okay. Neither do I.

...

Alexis [to Conor]: You know, it's funny how a person just by living can damage another person beyond repair.

...

Conor: Look...I'm simply asking for my best friend's opinion. Even if it is an uninformed piece of crap. Did you see this coming?
Stuart: Okay. "We are young. Heartache to heartache. We stand. No promises, no demands. Love is a battlefield." Pat Benatar.

...

Lillian [the professor discussing identity...theoretically]: Intuitive answer to this question. At bottom, the sense of Self corresponds to that experience of ownership and impenetrability of one's thoughts, of one's internal dialogues, of one's affective states that many but not all of us have from infancy. Solitude that Descartes had in mind when he redefined the concepts of subject and subjectivity. The faculty of knowing lies within the subject in his head, and the subject has such a status by dint of being enclosed within himself..."

Lillian: 'Why the Mind is in the Head' is the title of one of the lectures delivered at a 1951 symposium. One of the most authoritative voices in this chorus is Ken Gergen's, who asks the question: 'can we compellingly re-inscribe what it is to be a person in a way that moves us away from the individualist premise and toward the relational?'

...

Conor: Where are you living, El?
Eleanor: None of your business. Was that what you so desperately needed to talk to me about?
Conor: No. I was gonna say something good. Something that would've solved all our problems and made everything all better, but, you know what? I forgot what it was.

...

Conor [to Eleanor]: May I keep stalking you?

...

Julian [to Eleanor]: Tragedy is a foreign country. We don't know how to talk to the natives.

...

Conor: I dont want to interfere with her life or whatever she has to do, but I can't just chalk this up to destiny. I walked on with my life because moving forward was the only way to go.
Mary: I guess people grieve differently.
Conor: I wish there'd be some appropriate, articulate thing to say, but I just wanted the mundane daily bullshit back.
Mary: I think Eleanor wanted something else.

...

Katy: You pulled the floorboards out from under Conor.
Eleanor: He threw Cody's stuff into the closet. And then 10 minutes later he ordered Chinese from Madame Wu's.

...

Eleanor: How have you and mom made it this far?
Julian: I'm not sure. Endurance? Everyone starts out thinking this is forever. Then things get hard. At some point or another. And then other things don't pan out the way you thought they would. I suppose the trick is not running for the hills even when you think
it's the most rational thing to do. I don't know.

...

Conor: I, uh, forfeited the loan the bank gave me, I'm losing the lease on my bar... Eleanor's gone with the fucking wind. I'm 33 years old, and my life's a fucking boat wreck.
Spencer [his father]: I'm in my 60s. I lost a grandson this year that I'm basically forbidden to talk about, my third wife just walked out on me, and I come here every afternoon to this restaurant named after your mother. It's time to shoot the crow.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

"Gail, it’s as if someone dared 2020 to get worse, and 2020 replied: 'Just try me.' Right now I’m just sitting on my porch, awaiting a plague of locusts." Bret Stephens

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 37240
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

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