I don’t even know how I wrote that. I was just re-listening to it myself. Got caught up in a groove and forgot that, oh yeah, that’s mine.
I’d love that guy to have been my music teacher… very knowledgeable, and disseminating it in a totally clear and understandable way.
Barry Harris is awesome. He’s got a lot of videos like that, educational. Very useful if you’re into jazz especially.
Get a load of this ish guise, I’ve got two things; two (about five-minute-long) excerpts from my current project, a 25th symphony:
youtube.com/watch?v=eBS2tEbEmCY
^
It can’t be played on a normal piano, it requires a pedalier or pedal piano, which Alkan famously composed for. It’s a specialized piano with a fretboard enabling you to play chords in the bass with your fuckin’ feet, while you have both hands free. So it basically gives you three or four hands. But that isn’t enough. It requires two such pianos, with three players. (Otherwise their hands would overlap too much.) Two players sharing one piano and a third plays a second pedalier by himself. Also, all three players have to be exceptionally skilled. But all that is physical. Theoretical difficulty is more interesting; this uses my own Orphic and Nonatonic/Enneagonic Scales, augmented and chromatic stuff, multitudes of bravura techniques, weird chords and chord cycles that derive from my own theoretical work and don’t have descriptions, names, or expounded mechanics in any known music theory.
dude check out the temolo work at 2:49
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmPElQ1sce8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDfexODUQw0 https://
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PzITU0kKYQ
Lol in that first one u got some licks that are stylistically similar to some parts in this masterpiece that made me immediately think of it.
There was another part in something posted a week ago that was wicked as fuck but I can’t remember where it was and I ain’t about to listen to that long ass shit again to find it.
Indeed I listen to a lot of Zappa, plus I use Slonimsky’s thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns all the time, (the descending octave run in the beginning of the first link, which is used in several places throughout it, is from the Thesaurus) which Zappa borrowed a lot from as well. There’s a great many similar reference works I use, like this one, D. Creamer’s the “Hidden Symmetry of the 43 Octatonic Scales and Tetrachords”. These works contain not merely scales, but organizational systems for incorporating scales multi-modally, as well as skeletal melodies and patterns any composer can readily expand on into something new. The text on music theory I am writing is a work of the same sort; I came to make a note on some of the organizational principles in it I have utilized.
I’ve been absent on the forum because I’ve been busy. Writing both music and more text for my work on music theory. I wanted to make a note here on an alternate formulation of the L-C scale.
8-tone harmony (the 15th chord) as the unexceedable vertical limit; nonatonics or 9-tone systems as a special case of harmonic motion where modulations involving the 15th chord consolidate the remaining 4 notes of the 12-tone chromatic scale (by superimposing 3-tone and 6-tone patterns) to reach maximal harmonic complexity. (Schoenberg reached 12 tones by randomly including them through an algorithm, so I don’t count any of that as chords or harmony, it’s just random notes. It’s the musical version of deconstructionist politics. I’m looking to incorporate the 12 tones with an actual theory of harmony.)
In earlier posts in this thread I explained how the Lydian-Chromatic scale is constructed using Coleman’s symmetrical motion concept and eliminating duplicated notes. If the duplicates are admitted, a different kind of scale can be created that illustrates several useful points in understanding and putting all of this together, including how hexatonic superimposition works, (superimposing 3-tone and six-tone collections; nonatonics by extension) how the 15th chord is constructed with the 17th overtone, etc.
" You can also reconfigure this tone collection [the Lydian scale and it’s symmetrical mirror] as a meta-scale, (eg. a “non-octave equivalent scale) in the vein of meta-Lydian, where notes are allowed to double as long as they remain functionally independent and you accordingly reduplicate the intervallic patterns of the component tetrachords of the scale across the circle of fourths/fifths, as Slonimsky explains while detailing what he calls the disjunct Lydian polytetrachord. (More precisely, you extend their whole-tone/half-step patterns across the octave instead of identifying the tonic and wrapping the scale around at the root, progressing in this manner ad infinitum. All major scales can be interconnected through their tetrachords in this manner and interlinked as one greater “meta-scale” along the circle of fifths which, after moving across 12 octaves, returns to the initial tone after 84 functionally independent notes, while all minor scales can be similarly interlinked along the circle of fourths.) Doing this, we see that the Lydian-Chromatic scale, in its non-octave equivalent formulation, completes its ascent at C#. C# corresponds to the 17th overtone of the natural harmonic series. Interestingly, it is at the 17th overtone that the tonal system reaches its own final ascent as the microtonal gamut departs from the natural series. When this 17th overtone is conceived in a tertian chordal structure and superimposed on the 13th chord, it creates the 8-tone 15th chord of Ubieta’s system, (C# finds its place at the 15th scale degree of the Lydian-Chromatic scale) which would designate the limit of both the diatonic schema itself and all current theory of harmony, admitting the existence of nonatonics as more a theory of cyclic patterns useful in the construction of modulations involving the 15th chord than a theory of harmony itself,- a collection of modulations which, in sum, would consolidate the remaining 4 tones of the chromatic scale via harmonic motion. In fact, nonatonic cycles, (3-tone a la. the pattern used in Giant Steps, 6-tone a la. Scriabin’s Prometheus, 9-tone a la. Stravinsky, etc.) as expressions of a certain mystical ambitus latent in the diverse labors of the harmonic maximalists toward the achievement of 12-tone, total harmonic saturation, or what Scriabin called the Chord of the Pleroma, were used to traverse the chromatic spectrum long before Slonimsky’s systematic treatment of inter/infrapolation or Coltrane. For example, following the exegesis of the ‘gnostic impulse’ in “Music in the Early Twentieth Century”, if we analyze the three-note aggregate harmony that grounds the Rite of Spring, we find that it superimposes perfect fourths and tritones upward from a low-C; since a tritone equals a perfect fourth plus a semitone, when you extend this series over the octave, (just as the meta-scales are constructed over the octave by extending the step-wise patterns of their constituent tetrachords outside the respective key) as implied by Stravinsky’s utilization of the Rite-chord, you drive a fourths-fifths circular progression alternating by semitones, (the 12-tone chromatic scale) thereby running the gamut of both intervallic circles (the ascent by fifths corresponding, in Neo-Riemannian language, to major tonality, and, by fourths, to minor or “Plagal” tonality) and exhausting the chromatic spectrum, achieving the same 12-tone integration sought for by Schoenberg through a series of modulations without relying on mathematical processes to artificially expand through the 12 tones randomly, while for this reason also preserving the intrinsic ambiguity of the major-minor regions (telluric and universal gravity) which the 15th chord recapitulates as a distillation of musical impressionism and serialism rejects in its pathological deconstructionist trend toward a kind of musical antihumanism. Fittingly, the completion of this nonatonic cycle and the realization of its “unexceedable limit” sent Ives on his journey toward the microtones beyond the 17th degree, while, in contrast, Scriabin was sent more deeply inward in a journey toward the underlying organizational principle we have here indicated by the over-undertones, their spirognomic polarities, and the influence of a super-telluric gravity on the farthest vertical sonority available to us, (without resorting to microtones) that is, the most highly extended possible harmonic construct, that being the 15th chord. While Scriabin could not complete this later task, it should be clear that it is the one that has been taken up here as well. Perhaps microtonal music may be called for one day, but not until this later task has been accomplished.”
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Do you have an example of this alternative scale in action, that we can listen to?
I was actually about to post one myself.
youtube.com/watch?v=3lOQs6yhzXA
youtube.com/watch?v=g_zeURTSuTM (In this second link, the scale is played by itself up and down several times; starting at 8:46. At 11:15 the scale is played in its simplest form, immediately followed by the main chord progression of this whole composition, without anything extra on top of it, just the raw progression.)
The form of this work is a chromatic fantasy with some loose passacaglia type writing, which is characterized by continuous variation on a theme, but it is included as number 89 in my 21st opus, which is a collection of etudes accompanying the prose text on music theory. The text will elaborate on something and then include actual musical excerpts from this Op. 21 collection to demonstrate and analyze things. This study in particular, which is exceptionally long for an etude and basically the length of one of my concertos at over 30 minutes, focuses on the use of the Lydian-Chromatic scale’s polymodes, exploring its tonal regions; almost all of it was written in this polymode, constructed in the manner I’ve described through the thread. This meta-scale (superscale?) is the harmonic basis of the 15th chord, while I utilize several nonatonic systems to consolidate the remaining 4 notes of the total chromatic into chord progressions involving this augmented 15th degree. That being said, since I draw from classical, romantic, and jazz (plus other modern stuff), there are a multitude of techniques in which this harmonic material is expressed, but such techniques are of secondary importance for this etude. Its main subject is the theory of harmony I elaborated and putting it into practice; the technical praxis is arbitrary. I recorded half of it, but then at the end, in the second link, I allow the introduction to play as well, which is the main chord progression everything else is based on in the piece, and then several formulations of the Lydian-Chromatic polymode itself as a scale-run, up and down in lone notes and in octaves. If anyone plays or composes, you can easily take the scale and use it, or you can deconstruct those opening chords, which are 7, 8, 9, and even 10-tone harmonies. They’re really what, from the perspective of more conventional and antiquated music theory, you would call polychords; one’s a triple polychord. But again, the concept of a polychord- two independent chords with diverging key centers superimposed, only exists because there’s no theory of harmony that can account for a chord with more than seven tones in it, since that goes past the limit of the diatonic scale, nor can the interaction of these diverging key centers be explained. There’s no such thing, in other music theories, as a chord that large, and all theorists can do is break a chord like that down into two or more chords and simply say they’re superimposed. But my own music theory can and does formalize such mega-chords, (up to eight tones as a 15th chord and, with nonatonics, up to a 12-tone row) and my use of symmetrical movement and negative harmony can also conceptualize such diverging patterns between key centers, namely in terms of tonal gravity and what I had called orbits, eg. the same “generator tone” can influence, in terms of tonal gravity, completely divergent key centers, even those opposite to one another on the circle of fifths.
Why do you play them at retard speed?
It occurred to me for the first time since I heard one of your musics to play it at .25 speed, and it actually works pretty well (sound distortion notwithstanding). It sounds like the theme for an inspired nemesis in some 30’s movie, but somehow more delicately and nicely ornamented. Eery, but not offensively, and pretty.
I would obviously say that there wasn’t any apparent main idea or beautiful progression, no “story,” but you already addressed that this is just a study. Still, would enjoy seeing what these can do in action when put to the purpose of an intentional piece at non-retard speeds.
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Agree… the scale would need to be heard within a composition, to ascertain it fully.
Also… posting this here, seeing as you do not read your DMs
Re: Music Theory
Sent: Thu 11 Nov, 2021 11:42
From: MagsJ
To: Parodites
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I am so attending this… eventbrite.co.uk/e/austin-o … 4793762387
An Austin Osman Spare talk, by Phil Baker… whoever he is.
Edited to add: on 17th Nov at 19:14 - the author
A story? That’s cute. Stories are for mortals. Things that are born, live, and die. They record their vanities and pass it on to their progeny as if it mattered, or could, in the end, aid them in surmounting the only moral obstacle that matters in this life-- death. But music- music conquers death. Music is not a form of story telling. Music is a direct expression of man’s transcendental bent; an exploration of the Godhead itself. The best example of that is Bach, whose melodies are not really melodies… they meander and lead right back into themselves, like a closed circle. There’s no “story” because there’s no beginning, middle. and end. The main chord progression in that chromatic fantasy is, similarly. a palindrome of sorts- a circle. There is no beginning and end; the final chord directly leads back to the first chord for harmonic resolution, and on it plays again around the circle of time: eternity. The speed at which it is played is attuned to the speed at which an average piano virtuoso can play- Hamelin can even exceed the speeds I demand, in places. (I write very slow music in other places.) But why are the fast parts fast? Because sometimes it requires 1,000 notes to make a single sound.
The idea of the chromatic fantasy is the abstraction of that scale itself and its novel harmony. If you’re as far down the rabbit hole of technique and music theory as I am, that idea is more than enough. I take it you mean you want music whose idea is more earthly, something less abstract. I made this playlist with the entirety of my 68th concerto. I was on fire for this one, and had a blast jamming it out. I was listening to it myself earlier for pleasure:
youtube.com/playlist?list=P … tXgxtnlBNB
At 6:24 the main theme of the concerto appears. This theme will radiate throughout the thing, and I had a ball riding it. I was using Collier’s famous one-note re-harmonization over the chords in accordance to the Lydian-Chromatic scale, which besides that study no. 89, is the basis of essentially EVERYTHING I compose. There’s indeed fast parts in this, but I find it strange that you find that strange. The celerity I call for is actually pretty tame as far as virtuosic writing goes. The fingering and overlapping hands the writing calls for is FAR more technically demanding than the raw speed of the scalar runs and arpeggiations. (Plus these demands are placed on 2-4 pianists depended on my composition, since I simply don’t write solo music. I write duo, trio, and piano quartet. Having exploded these new harmonic possibilities of the piano through these new scales, I have invented a new form- the piano symphony, where multiple players on multiple pianos exploit the entire piano’s register to accomplish feats not seen in works less than the fully orchestrated symphonies of the Romantic period.) I don’t know, just listen to any of the greats; Horowitz, Hamelin. That speed really isn’t that far out there. Dude, have you heard Liszt’s rondo fantastique? That’s faster than about anything I committed to writing. I got disillusioned with the flashy raw speed stuff like 10 years ago and toned down my tempo after that.
Let me clarify: that entire chromatic fantasy is written in this scale we’re talking about. I play the scale at the end by itself just to highlight it. The entire thing, both the youtube links, IS that scale.
I will re-listen… the scale at the end, especially.
Just keep in mind that the entire thing is written based in that scale, (despite how completely different all the sections of it sound compared to one another; but that is the point, the scale offers incredible harmonic diversity. In fact, since it uses all 12 tones like a tone-row, it literally offers the maxima of tonic diversity. There’s nowhere else to go after it.) all the textures are developed out of it; even the melodies are framed over the skeleton of that scale.
Edited some more thoughts in my response to you and Pez, think I will leave it there till ya’ll get back. Gonna go pop some pills and get plastered again, I was working late and it’s over-due.
Lemme ax u sumthin. Are u even aware that none of us know what the fuck ur talking about? I’d hope that u are and are only showing off. I’d hate to think ur so smart ur stupid. Please tell me ur just flexing.
The problem is this is advanced stuff. In fact, it is more than advanced. I am into things that are beyond all published music theory and breaking new ground. What I am on about is what comes after you’ve went through Art Tatum and pentatonics and Slonimiskian infrapolation. So in order to talk about this, I have to just accept that 1 out of every 10 million people are gonna be able to understand. (This goes for the music theory stuff, the actual music itself, my politics, economics, philosophy, and psychology, and basically everything else since I’m a polymath who knows and can do everything 
) But there’s simply no other way to talk about this stuff. However, that is why I titled this thread music theory. It assumes that you have at least some interest in and knowledge of music theory. So I am genuinely trying to share my discoveries and techniques and educate, but yeah I’m also flexing.
I see. Well I’m out then because I don’t even know how to read music. I just play.
I hear and can recognize subtleties and patterns and such, but wouldn’t know how to talk about it.
I have failed you, and for that I am sorry.
p.s. I got some percs dude. We should drop.
We should drop? I drop every 2-3 hours if you mean eat pills. And you haven’t failed anything. I aim to spark an interest in those not down the rabbit hole with me. Google polytonality, harmonic planning, etc. Any of the terms or concepts I use and just follow the trails. The end goal of it is to give you new techniques and ideas to use in composing your own shit.