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We consider WWII as an event which resulted to the defeat of the bad, evil Nazis. Yes! We - the FREE and CIVILIZED world won the evil guys with the Hugo Boss uniforms! (yes, they were designed by Hugo)

But is it really this true? I think not.
Let's consider how things went on after the war...

1. Communism was finally crashed into oblivion (the MAIN political goal of Hitler - he always considered communists his greatest enemies and that is why he was so reluctant to attack UK and he even tried to offer them a truce!)

2. Modern space program continued based on V2 missiles and we finally got to the moon with the lead NAZI scientist leading NASA.

3. Medicine followed the example of Mengele to the full extent: We are every day bombared with news about how genes control our behaviour, how genes are responsible for who we are, how genes can change, how the genome can be manipulated et cetera. The experiments of Mengele were not an exception in the scientific community. Mengele was one of the many, working as an assistant professor at the famed Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Genetics. After WWII no one from this Institute was accused for anything... wrong (!!!) and the scientific academia did not find anything "weird" about these experiments. You may know the insitute in its current name: Max Planck. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Wilhelm_Institute_of_Anthropology,_Human_Heredity,_and_Eugenics] The dream of the Nazis for creating the new Arian race is going on. We are the heirs of that plan.

Every time I consider WWII I think about all the above. And I realize that WWII was like the case of Romans and ancient Greeks: Romans conquered the Greeks, only to be conquered back by their civilization. But in this case the West is not conquered by any "civilization" but by the terror of inhumanity...

Your thoughts?

DISCLAIMER: I am against the Nazis. Just a note for those who will read fast through the post...

I think there is a confusion in your view of what Naziism is and why it's bad. Your second example most clearly illustrates the confusion I think you're having. Are modern space programs Nazi if they use technology first applied to Nazi missiles? No. Naziism is more than just certain kinds of technology. Naziism is the specific program of applying those technologies for a given ideological end. Did we learn from Nazi scientists? Yes. Does that make us Nazis?

If communism fails, and that was one of Hitler's goals, does that mean Hitler won? No. Nazi ideology included specific beliefs about communism and specific policies about how to destroy it. Analogy: two students want to get a good grade on an upcoming test. One student devises a method of cheating to guarantee a good grade while the other spends time practicing and studying the concepts to be tested. They both succeed and get good grades. So they're basically the same? No, not at all. They arrived at similar results in fundamentally different ways. Not committing genocide, is also kind of a big deal. And saying that there's a significant difference between Nazis and those who defeated the Nazis does not bind me necessarily to any specific view of other policies and propaganda towards communism. Nor does it mean that I must think that inhumanity is not a problem today.

Again, just because two different groups are interested in eugenics doesn't make them and their goals the same.

skakos wrote:The dream of the Nazis for creating the new Arian race is going on. We are the heirs of that plan.

So what are "we" doing to further Nazi plans? Are we sterilizing and euthanizing thousands of people against their wills? Are we preventing the genetic heredity of Jews and gays? Nope. Do people freely select against various inherited diseases via prenatal genetic screening? Yes. Are the Nazis winning because of this?

skakos wrote:We consider WWII as an event which resulted to the defeat of the bad, evil Nazis. Yes! We - the FREE and CIVILIZED world won the evil guys with the Hugo Boss uniforms! (yes, they were designed by Hugo)

I think a lot of people agree that there are some major problems in today's free and civilized world, and that those who defeated the Nazis were not without their own blemishes. But not everything bad is Nazi.

First of all it is not that the US missiles were BASED on the German ones. They WERE the German ones.

Secondly, please tell me that you do not see what I see: Germans fight against communism, they lose the war, US and the whole other "free" world continue to fight against communism. There did not even pause for a break!

And yes, regarding eugenics we DO continue to kill thousands of people in our "best race" program. Only in 2012 about 780,000 women had abortion in the US. Anjelina Jolie cut of her breasts because some doctor told her she has a specific gene. We try to change our genes. We kill babies because we detect "wrong" genes every day. Don't you have tests for the Down's Syndrome where you live?

Hitler lost the battle, but won the war, for control of europe. This becomes truer everyday as the internationalist kabal pours third world immigrants into the european homelands and forces race mixing under the threat of being called a racist. Also germany is held hostage with debts, obligations, and guilt. When the germans throw off the shackles of slavery, of their oppression by middle eastern foreigners who don't belong there, then the germans prove that they're unstoppable in every respect.

Now londonistan and England is turning into Sharia law, part of the plans of the globalist elite and NWO. The English are probably kicking themselves in the ass, and reconsidering going to war against germany, as they now become victims of what the germans warned everybody else about. The warnings went unheeded, as millions and millions of non europeans pour into european countries, and the mass media forces race mixing on every commercial, pop culture reference, even in public schools. Everywhere you look there's a black male, white female combination being force fed to the entire world, while convincing everybody that race doesn't exist.

Remember liberals, there is only one race, the human race. How dare you think otherwise?

Now excuse me while I book a vacation to londonstan. Hopefully I don't get my head lobbed off in the street by a turk.

Sometimes I think the Confederacy really won the U.S. civil war. I mean... NASCAR?

skakos wrote:First of all it is not that the US missiles were BASED on the German ones. They WERE the German ones.

Does that help your argument?

skakos wrote:Secondly, please tell me that you do not see what I see: Germans fight against communism, they lose the war, US and the whole other "free" world continue to fight against communism. There did not even pause for a break!

That's so big a simplification of history I'd call it an error.

skakos wrote:And yes, regarding eugenics we DO continue to kill thousands of people in our "best race" program. Only in 2012 about 780,000 women had abortion in the US. Anjelina Jolie cut of her breasts because some doctor told her she has a specific gene. We try to change our genes. We kill babies because we detect "wrong" genes every day. Don't you have tests for the Down's Syndrome where you live?

Yeah, plus there's birth control, and all kinds of other inherited genetic disorders that we treat. If you disagree with any of these things then make a case against them for goodness sake, stop slandering everything you don't like by calling it Naziism. At least give me a reason to think there's anything more here than that.

fuse wrote:

skakos wrote:First of all it is not that the US missiles were BASED on the German ones. They WERE the German ones.

Does that help your argument?

skakos wrote:Secondly, please tell me that you do not see what I see: Germans fight against communism, they lose the war, US and the whole other "free" world continue to fight against communism. There did not even pause for a break!

That's so big a simplification of history I'd call it an error.

skakos wrote:And yes, regarding eugenics we DO continue to kill thousands of people in our "best race" program. Only in 2012 about 780,000 women had abortion in the US. Anjelina Jolie cut of her breasts because some doctor told her she has a specific gene. We try to change our genes. We kill babies because we detect "wrong" genes every day. Don't you have tests for the Down's Syndrome where you live?

Yeah, plus there's birth control, and all kinds of other inherited genetic disorders that we treat. If you disagree with any of these things then make a case against them for goodness sake, stop slandering everything you don't like by calling it Naziism. At least give me a reason to think there's anything more here than that.

What do you mean? Wasn't communism the greatest enemy of Hitler?

And no, we do not just "treat" genetic disorders. We kill babies which have genetic disorders. Use the right words and the answer will come to you.

It was all a game.
The gamers won.
And everyone lost.
Some merely slower than others.

James S Saint wrote:It was all a game.
The gamers won.
And everyone lost.
Some merely slower than others.

Nice one. A poetic way to see things.

Skakos wrote:

Wasn't communism the greatest enemy of Hitler?

And no, we do not just "treat" genetic disorders. We kill babies which have genetic disorders. Use the right words and the answer will come to you.

No. The German people were afraid of the Russians because of German atrocities against Russians. The Nazi government was more interested in eliminating Jewish people, Polish, Russian, German, as both an ethnic race and as a religion. But racial 'cleansing' was the more important thing to Hitler and his government, not Communism.

People in Greece may kill babies with potential genetic disorders, but not everyone in the US does. Children are born every day with no arms, legs, eyes--the evidence is there, if you look for it. Angelina Jolie and her double mastectomy was making a statement and using her name in the process. There are a lot of women who've gone through the same surgery in order to save their lives so they can care for the people around them. The actress has several children and a great probability that, without the surgery, she could have faced--along with her children--a slow and lingering death. That's a choice many women face.

As for German technical superiority, you haven't done your homework. Werner von Braun was one scientist among many from many countries who helped develop guided missiles for the US--after the War. During the war, the British developed an airplane that knocked the buzz bombs off course by diving down and hitting the bomb's wing with its own. It was the Hawker Tempest, Mark 6, and was very successful against the Nazi attack on the UK. The Nazi government didn't develop a 'guided' bomb--it developed a very early drone--a bullet that was aimed and fired. It's taken over 60 years for scientists(?)--technologists--to develop a piloted drone. The drone isn't pilotless--it's controlled by a pilot who just so happens not to be in the cockpit. This goes way beyond technology of 60-70 years ago.

It's really nonsense to believe the Nazi ideology "won" anything.

lizbethrose wrote:Skakos wrote:

Wasn't communism the greatest enemy of Hitler?

And no, we do not just "treat" genetic disorders. We kill babies which have genetic disorders. Use the right words and the answer will come to you.

No. The German people were afraid of the Russians because of German atrocities against Russians. The Nazi government was more interested in eliminating Jewish people, Polish, Russian, German, as both an ethnic race and as a religion. But racial 'cleansing' was the more important thing to Hitler and his government, not Communism.

People in Greece may kill babies with potential genetic disorders, but not everyone in the US does. Children are born every day with no arms, legs, eyes--the evidence is there, if you look for it. Angelina Jolie and her double mastectomy was making a statement and using her name in the process. There are a lot of women who've gone through the same surgery in order to save their lives so they can care for the people around them. The actress has several children and a great probability that, without the surgery, she could have faced--along with her children--a slow and lingering death. That's a choice many women face.

As for German technical superiority, you haven't done your homework. Werner von Braun was one scientist among many from many countries who helped develop guided missiles for the US--after the War. During the war, the British developed an airplane that knocked the buzz bombs off course by diving down and hitting the bomb's wing with its own. It was the Hawker Tempest, Mark 6, and was very successful against the Nazi attack on the UK. The Nazi government didn't develop a 'guided' bomb--it developed a very early drone--a bullet that was aimed and fired. It's taken over 60 years for scientists(?)--technologists--to develop a piloted drone. The drone isn't pilotless--it's controlled by a pilot who just so happens not to be in the cockpit. This goes way beyond technology of 60-70 years ago.

It's really nonsense to believe the Nazi ideology "won" anything.

Hitler's problem was communism. Not the whole world. He craved for peace in the West so that he could devote his forces on the Eastern front. Hitler did not kill every English soldier in Dunkerque exactly because he thought he could make peace with them. And he even made attempts for peace with them, even though we like to forget that. German atrocities against Russians came AFTER the war started! Don't confuse the chain of events here. And what is that nonsense about Greece vs. US ethics? Are you really trying to pass over a rascist argument here? Are the US people better than Greeks? Is that the joke you are trying to say here? Many kids with Down exist in Greece. And is really Angelina Jollie the best argument you have? Wow... I suppose all those abortions happening in the US tell you nothing. And I suppose all the wars and innocent people killed by US bombs also say nothing to you. Let me guess... Vietnamese had it coming because they were... communists. Right? And no. Werner von Braun was NOT "one scientist among many from many countries who helped develop guided missiles". He was the one! Try to deminish as much as you like the role of Germans in the US progress after the war. The photos are there to show the truth...

We consider WWII as an event which resulted to the defeat of the bad, evil Nazis. Yes! We - the FREE and CIVILIZED world won the evil guys with the Hugo Boss uniforms! (yes, they were designed by Hugo)

It's not that the 'FREE AND CIVILIZED' world is free of evil, but rather that it contains less evil than the Nazi world.

The winners took what they considered to be good ideas and good technology. The fight against communism was a good fight (for the West). The missiles were good. Medical experimenting on prisoners is generally not considered good. Although there have been many examples of it being done in the West, the practice is condemned when it is revealed.

phyllo wrote:

We consider WWII as an event which resulted to the defeat of the bad, evil Nazis. Yes! We - the FREE and CIVILIZED world won the evil guys with the Hugo Boss uniforms! (yes, they were designed by Hugo)

It's not that the 'FREE AND CIVILIZED' world is free of evil, but rather that it contains less evil than the Nazi world.

The winners took what they considered to be good ideas and good technology. The fight against communism was a good fight (for the West). The missiles were good. Medical experimenting on prisoners is generally not considered good. Although there have been many examples of it being done in the West, the practice is condemned when it is revealed.

The war against communism lasted for decades after WWII. I cannot see how fighting a was thousands of miles away from your home is "good". And the same applies for genetic testing. I am against Hitler but I am also against every westerner trying to pose as a "good man" against all "evil" in the world. Trying to manipulate the people was bad when conducted by Goebbels but it is good when conducted by CNN. The first is "propaganda", the latter is "information"...

There is a political theory floating around, which subscribes to the idea that with the coming new evolving world, total unification will not exceed the 3 major centres of power : 1 the anglo Saxons in including the Americas 2: the EU. 3:Asia including India

This division of the world into power centres, resemble the notions of empirical, analytical and neo colonial mentalities.

WW II was about the ideological triumvirate of socialism, capitalism and fascism. These three can be also correlated with the Soviet empire, the old Holy Roman Empire, and the British imperium.

It is very likely, that the EU is going to come out on top of the heap, as it recovers in less then 100 years from the 100 years of war. Incredibly, Europe recovered from another hundred years of war to live and progress and fight many more.

And finally, which is the country dominating the EU today? It is Germany, and in fact, if this presentation may hold any water, then indeed, the OP's assertion may turn out to be correct one.

The war against communism lasted for decades after WWII. I cannot see how fighting a was thousands of miles away from your home is "good".

The communists were oppressive to their own people and to the people of the countries which they controlled. If they are not near you, then you have to wage the war elsewhere.

I am against Hitler but I am also against every westerner trying to pose as a "good man" against all "evil" in the world.

There are no black hats and white hats ... all people wear grey hats and you need to decide what shade of grey is acceptable to you.

Trying to manipulate the people was bad when conducted by Goebbels but it is good when conducted by CNN. The first is "propaganda", the latter is "information"...

Trying to manipulate the people is always bad.

Don't forget that Goebbels is famous for the 'Big Lie' - not only twisting the truth but outright denying it. And in Nazi Germany you did not have other sources of information readily available. At least CNN information can be compared to other suppliers of information.

And finally, which is the country dominating the EU today? It is Germany, and in fact, if this presentation may hold any water, then indeed, the OP's assertion may turn out to be correct one.

The Germany of the EU is not a Nazi Germany with its particular ideology. If Germany pursues a policy of gaining living space in the east and enslaving the Slavs, then one might consider it a Nazi victory.

phyllo wrote:

And finally, which is the country dominating the EU today? It is Germany, and in fact, if this presentation may hold any water, then indeed, the OP's assertion may turn out to be correct one.

The Germany of the EU is not a Nazi Germany with its particular ideology. If Germany pursues a policy of gaining living space in the east and enslaving the Slavs, then one might consider it a Nazi victory.

It is pursruing a living economic space. Believe me. I live in Greece. I am living it.

a living economic space

What is that?

The Nazis would take physical space. They intended(and partially succeeded) to deport the people from the land, kill them or enslave them. That has the key foreign policy in the east.

Is that what is happening in Greece?

WWII changed all cultures and governments forever.
Next we will be in the age of the resource wars. Those days are coming in our lifetime I believe.
Some people are already trying to prepare and react.

Fascism aspects, those never died. They reformed and were used by both democrats and communists.

skakos wrote:1. Communism was finally crashed into oblivion (the MAIN political goal of Hitler - he always considered communists his greatest enemies and that is why he was so reluctant to attack UK and he even tried to offer them a truce!)

He was also reluctant to attck the UK on race based adn then practical military concerns. He assumed that given their racial closeness they should be allies. Further this doesn't mean the Nazis won. We have more dogs as pets than we did before WW2 and Hilter liked dogs, but this does nto mean Hitler won.

2. Modern space program continued based on V2 missiles and we finally got to the moon with the lead NAZI scientist leading NASA.

Then the US 'won'. Russia had the first satellites. Did that mean the Nazis lost?

You can't take a tiny piece of what the Nazis wanted - which surely was not that the US would be the first nation to achieve something rather than Germany - and then if it comes to pass this means the Nazis won. Just as honors coming to Einstein would not mean that the Germans won.

3. Medicine followed the example of Mengele to the full extent: We are every day bombared with news about how genes control our behaviour, how genes are responsible for who we are, how genes can change, how the genome can be manipulated et cetera. The experiments of Mengele were not an exception in the scientific community. Mengele was one of the many, working as an assistant professor at the famed Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Genetics. After WWII no one from this Institute was accused for anything... wrong (!!!) and the scientific academia did not find anything "weird" about these experiments. You may know the insitute in its current name: Max Planck. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_Wilhelm_Institute_of_Anthropology,_Human_Heredity,_and_Eugenics] The dream of the Nazis for creating the new Arian race is going on. We are the heirs of that plan.

I have a tiny bit of sympathy here. I do think there is something sick in the way genetics is being conceived,b ut it isn't, for the most part, being conceived as a set of tools to create a victorious Aryan race.

Every time I consider WWII I think about all the above. And I realize that WWII was like the case of Romans and ancient Greeks: Romans conquered the Greeks, only to be conquered back by their civilization. But in this case the West is not conquered by any "civilization" but by the terror of inhumanity...

Your thoughts?

I think it would have been better to start with this last idea. It is not well supported by your post. The Nazi were a radically nationalistic, racist party skeptical about internationalizing forces. They would be horrified by the world today. The EU for example which directly affects German sovreignty. How much the races mix in all sorts of ways, black presidents, decadent media, postmodernist art - he was already shocked enough by modernist art, imagine how he would feel about MTV and performance art. The world is less like the one the Nazis would have wanted, much less. That certain memes are present in the present that can be found in Nazi Germany - but also in many other places - does not mean that the Nazis won.

phyllo wrote:

a living economic space

What is that?

The Nazis would take physical space. They intended(and partially succeeded) to deport the people from the land, kill them or enslave them. That has the key foreign policy in the east.

Is that what is happening in Greece?

Germany is the leader in EU and actually exploits it to its own purposes. In a way it has succeeded to conquer Europe but with economic means. And no matter what the problems tody, it just does not want to give up any of its powers no matter what. Wages in Greece have fallen about 30% in the last 3 years and yet our debt is still rising. Modern wars do not need to have blood...

Nazism is a technique used to cause change and profit.

Those who "win" are not the Nazis, but rather the users.
You guys still seem to have no idea of the purpose of WW1 and WW2.

Germany is the leader in EU and actually exploits it to its own purposes. In a way it has succeeded to conquer Europe but with economic means. And no matter what the problems tody, it just does not want to give up any of its powers no matter what. Wages in Greece have fallen about 30% in the last 3 years and yet our debt is still rising. Modern wars do not need to have blood...

So, if we redefine the standard meanings of war, enslavement, deportation and murder ... then EU Germany is exactly like Nazi Germany.

phyllo wrote:

Germany is the leader in EU and actually exploits it to its own purposes. In a way it has succeeded to conquer Europe but with economic means. And no matter what the problems tody, it just does not want to give up any of its powers no matter what. Wages in Greece have fallen about 30% in the last 3 years and yet our debt is still rising. Modern wars do not need to have blood...

So, if we redefine the standard meanings of war, enslavement, deportation and murder ... then EU Germany is exactly like Nazi Germany.

Hey, it worked for America.

That's why top Nazi scientrists got special treatment and were justly rewarded for their contributions to US science.