Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Collapse

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Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Collapse

Postby LaughingMan » Fri May 30, 2014 6:26 am

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Are we getting closer to the great hour of fun concerning the entropic collapse of civilization? I certainly hope so. :evilfun:

( Please fast forward to 4:21 for your viewing pleasure.)

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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby LaughingMan » Fri May 30, 2014 6:43 am

You know things are getting quite pathetic and desperate when economic woes are being blamed on the weather.

This is the new normal and reality living in Soviet Amerika. :lol:

In this year of 2014 the Soviet United States Of Amerika have created an entirely new science known as Meteoronomics.

The US economy shrank in the 1st quarter for the 1st time in 3 years due partly to bad weather that hampered activity.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/bus ... d/9694823/
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri May 30, 2014 6:16 pm

It is unusual to find so much ignorance in one post. Oh, where to begin?

First of all, the U.S is nothing and I mean nothing like the soviet union. to
compare the old soviet union to the united states is like comparing a amoeba to a
human being. Yes, they are both alive and have the same basic activities, but
you can't really go beyond that. The soviet union was a left dictatorship and the current
drive for control comes from the right, similar in fact to the Nazi's with similar idea's.
both Nazi's and the U.S right wing want to eliminate people who are diverse in nature,
in other words, remove anyone who doesn't conform to the given parameters.
so both want to remove Gays, jews, muslims, people of color, in fact anyone who is different
than the ideal which is the same for both groups. White, male, Anglo-Saxon, protestant, sound familiar?
the right in America also wants to establish a theocracy, which is different than the Nazi's who wanted
to create a religion with Hitler as its god. The right wing drive to create a theocracy is no different than
muslims drive to create a theocracy only with muslims they want the religion to be islam and the right wants
Christianity, but beyond that there is no difference between the two. So we have that difference between
the American right and the Nazi's. This drive began in earnest in 1980 and has gone on since with a major
push being the bush lite years. As I believe that Obama is a right of center president, that is why he has continued
most of bush's lite programs. Obama only looks liberal because the right wing has gone so far to the right.
I remember a time when the republican party was basically where Obama is today. the vast majority of the
republican party was moderate and the party gone was the democrats who went very left, but as
is often the case the tide has turned and the reverse is true.

as for the second part, where America falls in economic decline, I agree but the cause is right wing
fixation on lower taxes. If you create a situation whereas the corporations don't pay much in taxes
(if any at all) and private wealth is lower tax or (not taxed at all) then the burden falls on the poor
and what is left of the middle class and that is clearly what has happened today and to return
to an example from the past, this situation occurred during the roman empire during the last two
centuries and this is one major reason for the fall of Rome. The burden of taxes crushed the lower classes
because the upper class didn't pay taxes, As it is today. if we don't spread taxes around to all classes
and make the corporations pay their fair share of taxes then we face a similar collapse.


Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby James S Saint » Fri May 30, 2014 6:22 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:It is unusual to find so much ignorance in one post. Oh, where to begin?

First of all, the U.S is nothing and I mean nothing like the soviet union. to
compare the old soviet union to the united states is like comparing a amoeba to a
human being. Yes, they are both alive and have the same basic activities, but
you can't really go beyond that. The soviet union was a left dictatorship and the current
drive for control comes from the right, similar in fact to the Nazi's with similar idea's.
both Nazi's and the U.S right wing want to eliminate people who are diverse in nature,
in other words, remove anyone who doesn't conform to the given parameters.
so both want to remove Gays, jews, muslims, people of color, in fact anyone who is different
than the ideal which is the same for both groups. White, male, Anglo-Saxon, protestant, sound familiar?
the right in America also wants to establish a theocracy, which is different than the Nazi's who wanted
to create a religion with Hitler as its god. The right wing drive to create a theocracy is no different than
muslims drive to create a theocracy only with muslims they want the religion to be islam and the right wants
Christianity, but beyond that there is no difference between the two. So we have that difference between
the American right and the Nazi's. This drive began in earnest in 1980 and has gone on since with a major
push being the bush lite years. As I believe that Obama is a right of center president, that is why he has continued
most of bush's lite programs. Obama only looks liberal because the right wing has gone so far to the right.
I remember a time when the republican party was basically where Obama is today. the vast majority of the
republican party was moderate and the party gone was the democrats who went very left, but as
is often the case the tide has turned and the reverse is true.

Naive.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Fri May 30, 2014 6:50 pm

James S Saint: Naive.

K: WOW. that really in depth analysis really put me in my place.
I mean, I may have to kill myself over that stunning piece of analysis.
I am just shaken to the core of my being over how you just critique my
opp. I shall now fall silent forever after being put in my place.

Kropotkin
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security
wind up with neither."
"Ben Franklin"
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby James S Saint » Fri May 30, 2014 6:54 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:James S Saint: Naive.

K: WOW. that really in depth analysis really put me in my place.
I mean, I may have to kill myself over that stunning piece of analysis.
I am just shaken to the core of my being over how you just critique my
opp. I shall now fall silent forever after being put in my place.

Kropotkin
:wink:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby zinnat » Sat May 31, 2014 7:09 am

I tend to see these definitions differently.

Conservative- One who wants to conserve/maintain all and opposes any change.

Liberal- One who is not interested in conserve/maintain anything but welcomes all changes.

Rightiest- One who wants things in order by force and does not care about rights and equality.

Leftist- One who prefers individual rights ( not to be confused with welfare) and equality and ready to accept some chaos also over order.

This is to say that a leftiest may be conservative also. Obama is the perfect example as prefers equality and rights over order and also wants to maintain that status.

In the same way, a rightiest may be liberal also. TaKe the example of Hitler. He was rightiest but not conservative, simply because, he did not want to conserve but change the Germany from what it was.

In my opinion, this is how definitions should work, unless one does not want to twist those.

with love,
sanjay
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 31, 2014 8:16 am

James S Saint: Naive.


Sometimes it takes the most simplest of expressions to convey sublime truths.
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 31, 2014 8:18 am

zinnat13 wrote:I tend to see these definitions differently.

Conservative- One who wants to conserve/maintain all and opposes any change.

Liberal- One who is not interested in conserve/maintain anything but welcomes all changes.

Rightiest- One who wants things in order by force and does not care about rights and equality.

Leftist- One who prefers individual rights ( not to be confused with welfare) and equality and ready to accept some chaos also over order.

This is to say that a leftiest may be conservative also. Obama is the perfect example as prefers equality and rights over order and also wants to maintain that status.

In the same way, a rightiest may be liberal also. TaKe the example of Hitler. He was rightiest but not conservative, simply because, he did not want to conserve but change the Germany from what it was.

In my opinion, this is how definitions should work, unless one does not want to twist those.

with love,
sanjay


All those political descriptions are pretty much useless and irrelevant considering there is just one international class of oligarchs across the planet.

All political socio economic isms are just means to their ends used to rouse up the serfs and slaves.

With animosity,

Tyler Durden
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 31, 2014 8:23 am

Peter Kropotkin wrote:It is unusual to find so much ignorance in one post. Oh, where to begin?

First of all, the U.S is nothing and I mean nothing like the soviet union. to
compare the old soviet union to the united states is like comparing a amoeba to a
human being. Yes, they are both alive and have the same basic activities, but
you can't really go beyond that. The soviet union was a left dictatorship and the current
drive for control comes from the right, similar in fact to the Nazi's with similar idea's.
both Nazi's and the U.S right wing want to eliminate people who are diverse in nature,
in other words, remove anyone who doesn't conform to the given parameters.
so both want to remove Gays, jews, muslims, people of color, in fact anyone who is different
than the ideal which is the same for both groups. White, male, Anglo-Saxon, protestant, sound familiar?
the right in America also wants to establish a theocracy, which is different than the Nazi's who wanted
to create a religion with Hitler as its god. The right wing drive to create a theocracy is no different than
muslims drive to create a theocracy only with muslims they want the religion to be islam and the right wants
Christianity, but beyond that there is no difference between the two. So we have that difference between
the American right and the Nazi's. This drive began in earnest in 1980 and has gone on since with a major
push being the bush lite years. As I believe that Obama is a right of center president, that is why he has continued
most of bush's lite programs. Obama only looks liberal because the right wing has gone so far to the right.
I remember a time when the republican party was basically where Obama is today. the vast majority of the
republican party was moderate and the party gone was the democrats who went very left, but as
is often the case the tide has turned and the reverse is true.

as for the second part, where America falls in economic decline, I agree but the cause is right wing
fixation on lower taxes. If you create a situation whereas the corporations don't pay much in taxes
(if any at all) and private wealth is lower tax or (not taxed at all) then the burden falls on the poor
and what is left of the middle class and that is clearly what has happened today and to return
to an example from the past, this situation occurred during the roman empire during the last two
centuries and this is one major reason for the fall of Rome. The burden of taxes crushed the lower classes
because the upper class didn't pay taxes, As it is today. if we don't spread taxes around to all classes
and make the corporations pay their fair share of taxes then we face a similar collapse.


Kropotkin


Somebody here has been drinking way too much koolaid from the punchbowl.

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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat May 31, 2014 5:38 pm

I am impressed by what passes for a rebuttal to my post.
One says, Naive and the other say, I drink the kool aid and yet neither actually
says anything or apparently knows enough to actually comment intelligently
about the subject at hand. I am old enough to been alive during the Cuban missile crisis and
I remember school drills where we told to go under our desks in case of a nuclear weapon,
(yeah, like that would do us a whole fucking lot of good in an nuke attack) and in the seventies,
talked to people who had fled the soviet union and I had a uncle who visited there in the sixties. From
these first hand accounts, I have a fairly good idea what the soviet union was about whereas you can only
say you read about it. As far as the economic ideas, I have studied economics for40 years.

Kropotkin
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wind up with neither."
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 31, 2014 6:34 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:I am impressed by what passes for a rebuttal to my post.
One says, Naive and the other say, I drink the kool aid and yet neither actually
says anything or apparently knows enough to actually comment intelligently
about the subject at hand. I am old enough to been alive during the Cuban missile crisis and
I remember school drills where we told to go under our desks in case of a nuclear weapon,
(yeah, like that would do us a whole fucking lot of good in an nuke attack) and in the seventies,
talked to people who had fled the soviet union and I had a uncle who visited there in the sixties. From
these first hand accounts, I have a fairly good idea what the soviet union was about whereas you can only
say you read about it. As far as the economic ideas, I have studied economics for40 years.

Kropotkin


You're just another person who has swallowed the blue pill. Go back to the matrix.
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby Peter Kropotkin » Sat May 31, 2014 9:05 pm

Ian sure a movie reference is as close to real philosophical as you can get. No need to actually read anything that might get you real thought like Hume or Nietzsche.

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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby James S Saint » Sat May 31, 2014 9:11 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:I am impressed by what passes for a rebuttal to my post.
One says, Naive and the other say, I drink the kool aid and yet neither actually
says anything or apparently knows enough to actually comment intelligently
about the subject at hand. I am old enough to been alive during the Cuban missile crisis and
I remember school drills where we told to go under our desks in case of a nuclear weapon,
(yeah, like that would do us a whole fucking lot of good in an nuke attack) and in the seventies,
talked to people who had fled the soviet union and I had a uncle who visited there in the sixties. From
these first hand accounts, I have a fairly good idea what the soviet union was about whereas you can only
say you read about it. As far as the economic ideas, I have studied economics for40 years.

Kropotkin

Not every response is an attempt at a rebuttal, sometimes merely a passing comment. When a post has too many conflations and misguided beliefs to address (possible worthy of 20 threads), it inspires merely a quick summation of impression, such as "Naive" or "Go back to the Matrix".

From some perspectives, you give the serious impression of having a "belief complex", a state wherein each belief interlocks with each other such as to yield an inner confirmation bias, a Gordian knot (or "maze") almost impossible to untie (referred to as "The Matrix).

The Gordian Knot can only be untied from within (your own mental faculties). In the film The Matrix, the superhero, Neo working for the Zionists, defeated the evil System agents by revealing "the light of God" from within them, "The Light of Logic" and thus dispelled their delusion (their belief complex). But to get any one person to "see the light of logic" can be pretty tough and an internet forum is a poor means of such communication and influence.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby LaughingMan » Sat May 31, 2014 11:28 pm

Peter Kropotkin wrote:Ian sure a movie reference is as close to real philosophical as you can get. No need to actually read anything that might get you real thought like Hume or Nietzsche.

Kropotkin


Don't bother trying to make yourself sound smarter or as an intellectual.

I've read more books than you ever have guaranteed. Take your childish antics elsewhere. I don't waste my time with people like you.
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby Arminius » Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:47 pm

Tyler Durden wrote:

Which film is that, Tyler?
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby James S Saint » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:07 am

"Heat" is the name of the film.

If it is allowed in your location;
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby Orbie » Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:46 am

Tyler, moral relativity is deadly. Living on the edge in Germany may not mean the same in the US of A. I have lived in Germany in the sixties, and was on the high of bicycling through the Black Forest, and meeting my friends in the bar in the evening, with a terrible case of weltschmertz, which i retained to the present day. A draft was 25 pfenning, i lived in Lintz, in a slager, and my best friend was a guy from rome, and another guy from Australia. In the morning i went to my job in a fabrique, where all i did was taking a mallet and trying to dislodge it from pipes, where the pipes leaked out liqiuid glue? I did not know what i was doing , but my German friends had a car and drove into Dusseldorf on weekends. But had to take the train back on Sunday night.

Since i am one half Swabian, i figured i'd fit in, but my friend kept referring to mutti, amd i felt kind of out of it.

There is no economic collapse, there is only the collapse of myself, gtrying to project a state, where i will find brothers as bad off as i am, and for that here i am , when i told You, i want to relate to You i didn't do it entirely from an altruistic point of view, i see myself as You, say thirty years ago. Total angst, total playacting. That i have developed alternate personalities to deal with it, mo one can blame me for, but by and by, my authenticity gleams through, and i a comfortable with playing wittgenstein like games. It is dreadful here, granted, but i knew FRIEND IN GERMANY, WHO FLIPPED , and had to be re-patriated. I think, Snowden may not be at all comfortable in his new surroundings, i suspect. Plese take care of Your self, and adhere to Your most basic instincts of survival. as always,obe
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby Arminius » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:15 am

obe wrote:Tyler, moral relativity is deadly. Living on the edge in Germany may not mean the same in the US of A. I have lived in Germany in the sixties, and was on the high of bicycling through the Black Forest, and meeting my friends in the bar in the evening, with a terrible case of weltschmertz, which i retained to the present day. A draft was 25 pfenning, i lived in Lintz, in a slager, and my best friend was a guy from rome, and another guy from Australia. In the morning i went to my job in a fabrique, where all i did was taking a mallet and trying to dislodge it from pipes, where the pipes leaked out liqiuid glue? I did not know what i was doing , but my German friends had a car and drove into Dusseldorf on weekends. But had to take the train back on Sunday night.

Since i am one half Swabian, i figured i'd fit in, but my friend kept referring to mutti, amd i felt kind of out of it.

There is no economic collapse, there is only the collapse of myself, gtrying to project a state, where i will find brothers as bad off as i am, and for that here i am , when i told You, i want to relate to You i didn't do it entirely from an altruistic point of view, i see myself as You, say thirty years ago. Total angst, total playacting. That i have developed alternate personalities to deal with it, mo one can blame me for, but by and by, my authenticity gleams through, and i a comfortable with playing wittgenstein like games. It is dreadful here, granted, but i knew FRIEND IN GERMANY, WHO FLIPPED , and had to be re-patriated. I think, Snowden may not be at all comfortable in his new surroundings, i suspect. Plese take care of Your self, and adhere to Your most basic instincts of survival. as always,obe

Obe, what - exactly - is so dreadful in the US?

We are told nothing new about the U.S. except "Friede, Freude, Eierkuchen" which means "alles klar", "alles recht" ("all right"), "nothing has changed", as if there were still the 1960's.

Please tell us more about the real situation in the US!
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby Orbie » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:54 am

Well, i will try. However, i have an inkling, that You guys have a pretty good idea of the U.S. situation, as it's fairly obvious from world reporting on the late great recession, the plight of returning veterans who find themselves having to wait inordinately for referrals to specialists to treat their maladies, of gi's living on the streets near VA hospitals, strung out on dope, not able to return to civilian life. Other things: the air here is not at all like the sixties, to give You an example, when i came to live here, gasoline cost per gallon was 15 cents, now it's almost $5. A pack of cigs was 25c, now it's $5. First class stamps were 4c now they are 50c. The same with rents and food.

The suicide rate in the military is very much larger then before, and there is a foreboding of valuelessness as purchase price of products rise, along with the cost of living.

Don't get me wrong, only segments of the populations feel this downward trend, while the upper middle class has no apparent problems with any of it.

As far as my take on living in the USA, it is anchored in a sense of high resiliency of the population, much like Henry Miller describes it in his novel "air conditioned nightmare. Still, people are able to live the mix,of ghettos and areas of great wealth coexisting in a geographical no man's land, and everybody tries to live under the idea of a 'classless' society. In a sense it is classless, and that too, is a catch 22, where that idea, also suffers when economic markers lower the bar, where social interactions at times painfully drag on the cheering thoughts of personal freedoms.


The collapse is nought, i don't quite see that, but what i see, is more of the same, the hidden downtrodden, the homeless ghettos, the high rate of crime, etc., it implies a societal chaos, that the US population can absorb.

Recently, there has been a sharp upsurge of child molestation among educators, and this is a veery sign of moral decay.

The way i see it, if it wasn't for the laxity of morality, (after all isn't Sweden a good model for it?), dissent and societal unhappiness would not have the safety valve of releasing at least on Freudian truth, of civilization's discontents.


Perhaps absolute, new world order Capitalism will solve all the insidiousness, and the word is out on that.


I feel my answer to Your query may be sort of disjointed, in fact i know it is, but the reason for it is, that the issues and problems parleyed are not reducible to formulas of only a few variables. This country, is, now, i feel, one of the least understood social systems on earth, minus Great Britain, with which it has a historically close relationship. The EU, adopting many of the same platforms, is far more sensitive to the inherent changes of cultural and ethnographic effects, but cross cultural dynamics, related to the flow of peoples and capital, make it not only a US situation.

It will turn out well in the end, but there will be cataclysms of major proportions, as the changes create ripple effects, cumulatively effecting the world over.


The US has enjoyed 50+ yeas of unparalleled post world war economic superiority, and the sad fact is, a well fed middle class, taking such prosperity pretty much for granted, would not stand a chance of survival, was it not for the international corporations sustaining, as of yet a positive cash flow toward the United States, and Great Britain and the EU.

The new world order is as ideologically necessary in today's world, as Marxism seemed to fit the bill, prior to the great ideological showdown, which brought in the World War. In that time, it appeared, as if Capitalism was a dying institution. History proved itself otherwise, and it is to Communism that distinction went to. It was a Hundred Years' War, of ideological conflict, and what we are seeing and feeling in the world today, are the sparks shooting out of the dying embers of ideology. This is what the end of history signifies, there are no credible cognitive markers, which can be used, as tools, to unearth, 'The Truth' of what the basic formula requires. Pragmatism has definitely won out worldwide over all forms of idealism, excepting art.

So as bad as things are in the Western World, it is more stable then at anytime in the history of the world, and as new emerging markets get progressively involved in a new world trade, we, who appear in a decline, have to grin and bear it, hoping for a turn for the better.



That much for the social/economic markers.
It would be preposterous, and naive of me to not notice the psychosocial objects left hanging, as the genius of utilitarianism is always to point to the futility of such an abstract yet naive way to describe a situation, where it can just as equally be pointed out, that it is not the 'system's fault but those singular individuals' who decide to construe a point of view, predicated on the simple
notion of directing fault outside their orbit of reference.

Art has retained this freedom of expression, an absolute reminder that the 2nd amendment is alive and well, but there are a lot of starving , disheartened artists out there, with or without a portfolio, to whom life as art, best describes their being, and soul.

I think most are all attuned to the aesthetic side of our personality, and it is that, which somehow manages to feel and react to the plight of ourselves and those others' around us in need. I have this feeling, and the beatniks and the various movements of dissent , no one can let pass without notice. However, the media is such an incredibly strong force here in the U.S., that any movement can be popularized to the extent, that the message is lost herewith. The media is the message, and even great reactionary movements, can be bought out this way, as a few minutes' worth of time in commercial utilization. Mainstream media can absorb almost any social dissent, and the middle will hold it's own, under the most ridiculously obvious nonsense. I could give countless examples, but one which comes to mind off the bat is the conspicuous way the Warren Commission handled and neutralized all the conspiratorial ideas about 'who really killed JFK' That study pretty much put to rest any doubt as to 'what really happened'

The pragmatic inertia of society, and the devaluations thereof, are successively modified and dealt with, the incessant and relentless march of newer and newer products. Production is the key to social cohesion, and the production machines of Hollywood dreams, creates the very schizophrenia of the dreamlike world of how life and fantasy are blended , albeit in a very imperfect way, into the fantastic as a retreat from reality. The legitimization of such retreat and escape, has always been part and parcel of the escapism , always westward, into the wide open spaces , to create anew, and tear down the old.

The only true escape from this tearing down, is the narcotic effect, of experiencing the dissolution as part of the self, there is joy in tearing one's self apart, and experiencing the complete, and dangerous newness emerging from this. This is how the west was won, the emerging heroes? Kit Carson, Dillinger, Wyatt Earp, Lucky Luciano, Steve Wynn. The American myth is founded on violence, on land grab and claim jump, the existential jump not available to such men, as Hart Crane, who could not jump from New York to Cuba, a voyage of diminishing returns, as time flowed by. The East, could never fathom the West, the Old World is in the same relation to the New World, they are unwitting bedfellows.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby Arminius » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:39 pm

obe wrote:Well, i will try.

Thank you, Obe.

obe wrote:However, i have an inkling, that You guys have a pretty good idea of the U.S. Situation ....

Not all, some (including me) know quite enough about the U.S. situation. But the rulers in Europe don't inform „their“ people, and most of the Europeans are not interested, because and although they are not informed by „their“ governments.

obe wrote:..., as it's fairly obvious from world reporting on the late great recession, the plight of returning veterans who find themselves having to wait inordinately for referrals to specialists to treat their maladies, of gi's living on the streets near VA hospitals, strung out on dope, not able to return to civilian life. Other things: the air here is not at all like the sixties, to give You an example, when i came to live here, gasoline cost per gallon was 15 cents, now it's almost $5. A pack of cigs was 25c, now it's $5. First class stamps were 4c now they are 50c. The same with rents and food.

The suicide rate in the military is very much larger then before, and there is a foreboding of valuelessness as purchase price of products rise, along with the cost of living.

Don't get me wrong, only segments of the populations feel this downward trend, while the upper middle class has no apparent problems with any of it.

These „segments of the population“ are not a few, because, depending on the respectively definition of the word „classes“, the percentage of the population of both the middle and the lower class is generally more than 99%, and the percentage of the population of the middle class is generally about 50%, that of the upper middle class generally about 5%, so that generally about 94-99% of the U.S. population may be affected. Because of the fact that some people are more contended than other people, the percentage of discontended people is - for eaxmple - about 47-50%.

obe wrote:As far as my take on living in the USA, it is anchored in a sense of high resiliency of the population, much like Henry Miller describes it in his novel "air conditioned nightmare. Still, people are able to live the mix,of ghettos and areas of great wealth coexisting in a geographical no man's land, and everybody tries to live under the idea of a 'classless' society. In a sense it is classless, and that too, is a catch 22, where that idea, also suffers when economic markers lower the bar, where social interactions at times painfully drag on the cheering thoughts of personal freedoms.

The collapse is nought, i don't quite see that, but what i see, is more of the same, the hidden downtrodden, the homeless ghettos, the high rate of crime, etc., it implies a societal chaos, that the US population can absorb.

Recently, there has been a sharp upsurge of child molestation among educators, and this is a veery sign of moral decay.

The way i see it, if it wasn't for the laxity of morality, (after all isn't Sweden a good model for it?), dissent and societal unhappiness would not have the safety valve of releasing at least on Freudian truth, of civilization's discontents.

That's not only a Freudian truth. :wink:

And Sweden „a good model“? Well, I doubt that.

obe wrote:Perhaps absolute, new world order Capitalism will solve all the insidiousness, and the word is out on that.

If so, then - according to Hegel's Dialektik - it will have to be a Synthesis of the Thesis „capitalism“ (especially successful in the 19th century) and the Antithesis „communism“ (especially successful in the 20th century). What can that kind of Synthesis be? Merely something like globalism or its contrary: localism / regionalism which will lead to the pre-historical times resembling post-historical times (cp. my thread: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY).

obe wrote:I feel my answer to Your query may be sort of disjointed, in fact i know it is, but the reason for it is, that the issues and problems parleyed are not reducible to formulas of only a few variables. This country, is, now, i feel, one of the least understood social systems on earth, minus Great Britain, with which it has a historically close relationship.

And before U.K. and U.S. came together (during the First World War), there was a deeply realtionship between Germany and U.S. :wink:

obe wrote:The EU, adopting many of the same platforms, is far more sensitive to the inherent changes of cultural and ethnographic effects, but cross cultural dynamics, related to the flow of peoples and capital, make it not only a US situation.

It will turn out well in the end, but there will be cataclysms of major proportions, as the changes create ripple effects, cumulatively effecting the world over.

Maybe it will turn out well in the end, but can we be sure?

obe wrote:The US has enjoyed 50+ yeas of unparalleled post world war economic superiority, and the sad fact is, a well fed middle class, taking such prosperity pretty much for granted, would not stand a chance of survival, was it not for the international corporations sustaining, as of yet a positive cash flow toward the United States, and Great Britain and the EU.

The new world order is as ideologically necessary in today's world, as Marxism seemed to fit the bill, prior to the great ideological showdown, which brought in the World War. In that time, it appeared, as if Capitalism was a dying institution. History proved itself otherwise, and it is to Communism that distinction went to. It was a Hundred Years' War, of ideological conflict, and what we are seeing and feeling in the world today, are the sparks shooting out of the dying embers of ideology. This is what the end of history signifies, there are no credible cognitive markers, which can be used, as tools, to unearth, 'The Truth' of what the basic formula requires. Pragmatism has definitely won out worldwide over all forms of idealism, excepting art.

Idealism, right. And idealism is mostly German idealism. If the „new world order“ is really „as ideologically necessary in today's world“, then this new world order can merely be - as I said - something like globalism or its contrary: localism / regionalism, which will lead to the pre-historical times resembling post-historical times (cp. my thread: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY).

What you are calling the „Hundred Years’ War“, „of ideological conflict“, is the epoch where egalitarianism (socialism, communism etc.) were stronger that liberalism (capitalism etc.) bcause it had undercut and threatened all liberalistic (capitalistic) systems. But now we are living in a different epoch: capitalism is weak, communism is not as strong as in the last epoch, and globalism - as the Synthesis of capitalism and communism (cp. Hegel's Dialektik) - is the strongest. That means that both capitalism and communism still exist, but as a mix in which capitalism dominates as a communism.

Referring to the fact that globalism is a Synthesis of capitalism (Thesis) and communism (Antithesis) the end of history will be reached when this Synthesis has changed to such a New Thesis whithout any historical existence. Merely something like globalism or its contrary: localism / regionalism, which will lead to the pre-historical times resembling post-historical times (cp. my thread: Thinking about the END OF HISTORY).

obe wrote:So as bad as things are in the Western World, it is more stable then at anytime in the history of the world, and as new emerging markets get progressively involved in a new world trade, we, who appear in a decline, have to grin and bear it, hoping for a turn for the better.

That much for the social/economic markers.
It would be preposterous, and naive of me to not notice the psychosocial objects left hanging, as the genius of utilitarianism is always to point to the futility of such an abstract yet naive way to describe a situation, where it can just as equally be pointed out, that it is not the 'system's fault but those singular individuals' who decide to construe a point of view, predicated on the simple
notion of directing fault outside their orbit of reference.

Art has retained this freedom of expression, an absolute reminder that the 2nd amendment is alive and well, but there are a lot of starving , disheartened artists out there, with or without a portfolio, to whom life as art, best describes their being, and soul.

The current art shows also what globalism means (see above), so the current art is also enbedded in both capitalisms and communism, in Thesis and Antithesis of the Synthesis globalism. Nobody else than Oswald A. G. Spengler has so consequently and arrestingly shown how art works as a semiotic and/or linguistic indicator for historical phases of a culture / civilisation.

According to Schopenhauer in the face of the will as Kant’s „Ding an sich“ („thing in itself“) human beings are almost powerless, but amongst them the genies of the art, especially of the music, are able to conceive and represent the eternal ideas.

obe wrote:I think most are all attuned to the aesthetic side of our personality, and it is that, which somehow manages to feel and react to the plight of ourselves and those others' around us in need. I have this feeling, and the beatniks and the various movements of dissent , no one can let pass without notice. However, the media is such an incredibly strong force here in the U.S., that any movement can be popularized to the extent, that the message is lost herewith. The media is the message, and even great reactionary movements, can be bought out this way, as a few minutes' worth of time in commercial utilization. Mainstream media can absorb almost any social dissent, and the middle will hold it's own, under the most ridiculously obvious nonsense. I could give countless examples, but one which comes to mind off the bat is the conspicuous way the Warren Commission handled and neutralized all the conspiratorial ideas about 'who really killed JFK' That study pretty much put to rest any doubt as to 'what really happened'

The pragmatic inertia of society, and the devaluations thereof, are successively modified and dealt with, the incessant and relentless march of newer and newer products. Production is the key to social cohesion, and the production machines of Hollywood dreams, creates the very schizophrenia of the dreamlike world of how life and fantasy are blended , albeit in a very imperfect way, into the fantastic as a retreat from reality. The legitimization of such retreat and escape, has always been part and parcel of the escapism , always westward, into the wide open spaces , to create anew, and tear down the old.

The only true escape from this tearing down, is the narcotic effect, of experiencing the dissolution as part of the self, there is joy in tearing one's self apart, and experiencing the complete, and dangerous newness emerging from this. This is how the west was won, the emerging heroes? Kit Carson, Dillinger, Wyatt Earp, Lucky Luciano, Steve Wynn. The American myth is founded on violence, on land grab and claim jump, the existential jump not available to such men, as Hart Crane, who could not jump from New York to Cuba, a voyage of diminishing returns, as time flowed by. The East, could never fathom the West, the Old World is in the same relation to the New World, they are unwitting bedfellows.

Thank you, Obe, for answering my question that I have asked on behalf of most Europeans.
Last edited by Arminius on Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Living In Soviet Americana And The Coming Economic Colla

Postby Orbie » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:03 pm

Yes, and connecting this to the , in about the middle of this forum, where we agreed that the fact that Kant is being reconsidered, shows logical , metaphysical and epistemological correlation. I feel comfortable with that. Incidentally, Polanyi is likewise a Kantian, and he was not in essence considered a 'continental' philosopher.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith


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